Grays_1890
Colin Calderwood
Haha no worries, should have been clearer.Cool that makes sense! Was just trying to reading the post in proper context. Cheers.
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Sick sick world what is wrong with people
- Thread starter Danishfurniturelover
- Start date
Disturbing news about the Nottingham killer. He was in the system and sectioned 4 times including assaulting a police officer. He had a warrant for his arrest for failing to attend court which was never actioned or followed up by Nottingham police. There are layers of failure where maybe this tragedy could have been prevented.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
ICJ ruling is pretty clear, the genocide defenders are still struggling to find a voice.
ICJ ruling was clear. They said no genocide. Israel said "That's fine, we'll continue what we're doing and continue not genociding".
The ruling obviously changes nothing.
Oooh, looks like someone's learned a new word.
Unfortunately, that's not how you use it.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
I still believe Israel knew about the Hamas initial attacks and let them happen
it gave them what they wanted.… an excuse to take more land
Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
Are you kidding me? You are linking in a google search which asks whether all Israeli citizens had the right to vote? As if that disproves apartheid?
All Russian citizens are guaranteed the right to vote.
All Zimbabweans were guaranteed the right to vote under Mugabe.
In South Africa all citizens were guaranteed the right to vote.
All German citizens in the Nazi era had the right to property, the right to work, the right to social benefits, right to education.... Many other rights too.
And there was follow through. These things existed. No German citizen was excluded. It was inclusive of all German citizens according to the definition of German citizen.
Obviously there's a big but in there somewhere. One which tells us that what's written on paper means jack brick and that issues of what exactly constitutes a 'citizen' often reveal discriminatory processes in themselves. And even then, even if you are outrightly considered a citizen and granted these rights on paper, that doesn't translate to real life fulfilment of those rights.
And its completely irrelevant because you know yourself no Palestinian in practice would ever be afforded legitimate Citizenship. They'd get residency if they were very lucky.
If Israel truly isn't an apartheid state.....Your opinion does not stand up to the Israeli PM insisitng that not all Israeli ciitzens are equal.
I'm sorry but I have to ignore what you and your 'Let me Google that for you' search is saying and listen to the words of the guy who runs the country.
He should know - and he says Israel is a state of Jewish people and them alone. Other citizens are not equal.
I don't even have to argue that Israel is an apartheid state. It's been recognised by international bodies. You can't really get more clarity than that.
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Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
This sounds like Trump with his "no collusion, no obstruction. Complete and utter exoneration"
And just as we knew he was full of brick as saying it you are as well.
The ICJ did not say there wasn't any genocide. They didn't go as far as confirming it but they said it is plausible that genocide has been committed/ is been committed.
It's hardly a fantastic look to say that the ICJ didn't rule there was when they've said themselves that there may well have been/ has been/ will be.
They've likewise not ruled that Russia has committed Genocide but that doesn't change the fact the evidence is pretty strong - and few people would deny that they have.
What is clear is the world is at last slowly starting to wake up to what has been going on in that region for far too long and saying that it isn't right.
Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
Who knows. The one undisputable fact is there was a great amount of provocation on the part of Israel leading up to it.
There was clear condoning, encouraging, justifying, sponsoring.... on the side of the Israel's to seize more and more land from Palestinian's and guarantees put forth that anyone who kills a Palestinian family and takes their house will not face punishment
How very nice. The Germans also had a one way ticket policy.
All of the above is from a year+ ago and mostly taken from Israeli news so there can be no accusation of bias.
Any government who has cabinet members who openly brag that they are fascists, regardless of whether or not they promise to refrain from stoning LGBTI people, regardless of whether they think spitting on Christians is acceptable, regardless of whether or not they think Arabs are the scum of the earth, are undisputedly racist.
Any government that thinks its acceptable to drive people out of their homes - to the extent that 100 incidents are happening each month - is undisputedly fascist.
Israel as it stands today is a fascist state.
There's just no other way of cutting that!
The below is from Norman Finkelstein. He is the son of two holocaust survivors.
There are Jewish people who are brave enough to be able to put conflicting feelings to one side and acknowledge that what's going on isn't in keeping with their struggles.
@Grays_1890 is one from here. I think anyone who can admit that Israel isn't treating Palestinians fairly are extremely brave.
Israel isn't Judaism and Judaism isn't Israel. Condemning Israel isn't condemning Judaism. It's also not a case of admitting such issues exist in Israel refute it entirely. Once people start to admit they don't approve of what Israel is doing then it opens the door to Israel being held accountable.
I don't pretend that the severity and barbarity of the Holocaust has been levelled. That (hopefully) will never be matched again.
You would hope a state that's descended from people who were demonised and almost wiped off the face of the earth would be super sensitive to making sure that racialised/religious based biases are not allowed to pass by unchecked. You would hope they would be the world leaders in calling it out when it does occur. You would hope that more than anyone else in the world they would be insistent that fair treatment was given, and that underlying aspects like collective punishment, pushing into ghettos, forbidding of rights - are never allowed to take place.
You would hope Israel would be world leaders in ensuring the stories and experiences of its inhabitants contribute to a true empathic understanding that the actions of the few do not represent the people as a whole. You would hope they would use the unique backstory to the birth of their nation to say 'We will always treat any minorities in our society completely differently to the way those people treated us'.
When they said never again they meant never again. Never again doesn't mean only for some people and not others. It meant humankind should never have to go through this again.
Fair play to South Africa. They were brave enough to say that given their experiences they had to say it didn't sit right with them. Mandela would be so proud.
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Lost Mango
Goran Bunjevcevic
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ...........
That's the beauty of democracy - one person can have an opinion without it becoming the official position of the nation. Doesn't work that way with godtarded theocracies.Are you kidding me? You are linking in a google search which asks whether all Israeli citizens had the right to vote? As if that disproves apartheid?
All Russian citizens are guaranteed the right to vote.
All Zimbabweans were guaranteed the right to vote under Mugabe.
In South Africa all citizens were guaranteed the right to vote.
All German citizens in the Nazi era had the right to property, the right to work, the right to social benefits, right to education.... Many other rights too.
And there was follow through. These things existed. No German citizen was excluded. It was inclusive of all German citizens according to the definition of German citizen.
Obviously there's a big but in there somewhere. One which tells us that what's written on paper means jack brick and that issues of what exactly constitutes a 'citizen' often reveal discriminatory processes in themselves. And even then, even if you are outrightly considered a citizen and granted these rights on paper, that doesn't translate to real life fulfilment of those rights.
And its completely irrelevant because you know yourself no Palestinian in practice would ever be afforded legitimate Citizenship. They'd get residency if they were very lucky.
If Israel truly isn't an apartheid state.....Your opinion does not stand up to the Israeli PM insisitng that not all Israeli ciitzens are equal.
I'm sorry but I have to ignore what you and your 'Let me Google that for you' search is saying and listen to the words of the guy who runs the country.
He should know - and he says Israel is a state of Jewish people and them alone. Other citizens are not equal.
I don't even have to argue that Israel is an apartheid state. It's been recognised by international bodies. You can't really get more clarity than that.
I'm not sure why you are including the position of Palestinians here, are you suggesting that the entire land mass "From the river to the sea" is Israel? If not, why is the treatment of those outside the country relevant in a discussion on apartheid?
There's been plenty of war crimes committed by Russia recently but I'm not sure any of that would amount to genocide either. I'm fairly sure they don't want to completely remove Ukrainians from existence, they just want Ukraine to be part of Russia.
Equally, it's very clear that Israel is doing everything they can to avoid wiping out non-Hamas Palestinians. They've evacuated them from the most intense fighting (something their own government wouldn't even do), they've warned in advance of attacks and they've even taken to clearing tunnels manually - the sensible thing would be to flatten them from above.
Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
Come if it. The ‘opinion’ of the leader of any nation shows how that nation is operating.
Like you I’m an atheist. You talk of GHod tarded theocracies but you’re biased towards one of those yourself.
It’s not all Israel. But I think Japanese occupied Korea, British controlled Caribbean, French controlled Africa, Spanish controlled South America… and their treatment are still relevant in analysing the ideology of those nations/ empires/ states.
There’s no way you can separate how Israel treats people in the land it’s relentlessly illegally occupied for 70 years and the treatment of Palestinians from the Israeli system. So long as Israel occuppeis them they are the responsibility of Israel. A responsibility they have subsumed of their own volition contrary to international law.
There’s no way you can separate that same occupied population that they exploit for cheap forms of labour whilst insisting they aren’t allowed on particular roads - and refusing to give them citizenship of Israel, or grant them statehood of their own.
Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
Yeah. The IRA used to phone ahead to give warning too. They were still terrorists.
Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
Here we are.
It's set out clearly in Israel's laws that ONLY Jewish people - and Jewish people alone - are entitled to self-determination.
Non-Jews aren't entitled to self-determine.
Its official state policy that only people of a certain ethnicity/ religion are guaranteed autonomy and freedom.
Israel's national policy explicitly outlines Israel is a racist apartheid nation.
You're right, the UK controlled much of the Caribbean - the UK was not an apartheid state. The French controlled a lot of North Africa - France was not an apartheid state.
There were countless wrongs committed by those countries, but being an apartheid state was not one committed by either. Nor is Israel regardless of what you think of its behaviour outside its borders.
The IRA didn't distinguish themselves from non-combatants, they targeted civilians and they acted to attempt to change the policies of a foreign government - that's why they were terrorists.
Israel is doing none of those things - they are clearly separating their military from civilians, they are targeting Hamas's military positions, removing civilians first (despite Hamas hiding in hospitals, etc) and are not looking to change anyone's political policy. This is a war waged by a legitimate national army against a military foe.
Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
I'm giving examples of different states to say that treatment of different races outside of its borders is still relevant.
It particularly becomes relevant once you occupy people. At the point of occupation your obliged by international law to safeguard the human rights of everyone who lives there. Israel is obliged to ensure Palestinians have food, shelter and health access whilst they are the occupying force.
They not only have failed to do that but they've actively restricted it.
It seems a bit strange to say that Israel's behaviour outside its borders can't be taken into account. Particularly when Israel policy says that establishing settlements outside its borders is a 'national value' and something they seek to establish. It blurs all boundaries when Israel seek to create settlements outside its borders. You can't both claim ownership over these settlements whilst simultaneously saying unequal treatment in those locations is not Israeli responsibility.
And forgetting about borders I remind you...
Self-determination is legislated on ethnic lines. ONLY Jewish people have the right to self-determination. It is unique to Jewish people alone - as Netanhyu clarified.
Therefore:
1) Israel's national policy and leadership make clear non-jews are not afforded right to self-determination
2) Israel has clear policies on evicting non-Jews to make way for Jewish people.
3) Israel has acted on both of these.
Israel is an openly apartheid state.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
Clearly…,
Really…..
Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
That was one part I just couldn't justify with a response.
Despite Scara's many faults the one thing I have to credit him for is he doesn't censor anyone on here no matter how heated things get.
But it's appalling to see how far people are prepared to go to justify Israel and it makes no sense too. The scale of oppression is off the chart and it's gone on for so many generations. People from both the left and the right have made clear what this is.
Obama, Cameron, dare I mention Corbyn....
To my surprise I even saw a video clip in which Trump said:
Far left, centre left, centre right, right wing...
All these different UN bodies and international charities.
The sheer commitment to just refuse to accept that Israel has any fault is completely unreal.
It's like arguing with any one who's pro-Russian. The whole world can tell them they've been out of line and there's always a reason, a justification, a denial. Its endless.