Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[Rorschach]

Could Netanyahu be in a jam here. Some media are now reporting that he knew an attack was incoming (he previously denied knowing this) and either dismissed it or thought it would be not as serious as it turned out and could use it as a distraction from the democracy protests. Does this sound plausible?

 

[P.D.]

The post you quoted was about cutting off power and water? But we can talk about the blockade. If you have Hamas in change, funded by Iran, who both state they wish to kill Jews and destroy Isreal, do you think it’s a good idea for Isreal to let any old goods into Gaza? Like rockets arms etc. clearly a lot got through for this massacre. Microlight aircraft, guns, plenty of rockets or components to make them.

In a democratic nation, who would say ‘you know what screw it, have free rein, bring in as many arms as you like’! No government would stay in power whether in the UK or Isreal faced with the very real threat and ability to reduce the threat. The current crisis shows that the blockade wasn’t staunch and the borders are quite porous in reality. Moreover you or I can buy Palestinian Oliver oil in the UK exported freely. And as mentioned Gaza has another border with a Muslim nation it doesn’t hate. I believe visas are given to Palestinians to enter Isreal. Wasn’t it common for Palestinians to work in Isreal and return to Gaza each day? I think so.

It’s a bit obvious but to have a two state solution…you need two states, two functioning nations. There isn’t that. There is a total imbalance and Gaza doesn’t have a stable effective government. It’s not even a pariah state. Before Gaza was controlled by Isreal it was Egyptian, before that British, and before that Turkish. If anyone has a claim on Isreal maybe it is the Turks as they held the area for the longest period - maybe 700 years.

There is no doubt Isreal is partly to blame for Gaza being in limbo. Isreal is caught in a catch 22 where it can’t empower a quasi-state who is run by people who want to wipe it and its people from the face of the earth. Yet at the same time, for Gaza to progress and became a state (two-state solution) it needs stability, infrastructure, peace, development, investment. Which is why the role of Iran and others funding Hamas is so detrimental. Believe it or not Isreal would like Gaza to be a stable independent peaceful nation. Isreal has stable good relations with Jordan and Egypt. Though both have to play up to Islamist fanatics int heir own nations who also hate Isreal.

Maybe what many left leaning commentators don’t appreciate is the history of hate towards Jews and Isreal. Thousands of Jews were displaced, driven out of homes and communities across the Middle East. I need to underit more but the Arab world rose up against Isreal in the 1940,50,60s. And the deep hate is sadly ingrained in some. Yet the Brits gave Isreal to zionists. And the League of Nations awarded Isreal to us Brits post Ottoman Empire and WWI?.

I’ve always tried to keep an open mind on Isreal. Knowing there are fundamental Jews and settlers etc. but their wrongs don’t seem as indiscriminate and hate filled as the holy war many islamists believe they are waging.

I don't disagree but we need to distinguish between Hamas who are hideous and Palestinians who I'm guessing in the main are normal people that just want to live their lives.

It's not about control, the little I know seems to indicate that not enough effort has gone into mediating this over the years or enforcing previous agreements, look at this list of UN security resolutions on Israel for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel - countless resolutions but it seems little effort has gone into doing much about them. Trump for all his faults at least started something with the Abraham Accords. The US alone have vetoed over 40 resolutions on Israel. As a byside another thing that needs to be reformed is the UN and this stupid veto that only applies to 5 countries.

We'll have to wait for things to settle down but I see that there's public shelters in Israel and people living near the border have re-enforced panic rooms in their houses. That's no way for anyone to live.

On Palestinians the blockade might not be as severe as the media make out and I don't know enough about it but what about their rights. Are they allowed Israeli passports for example? Are they entitled to benefits? Are their rights the same as Israeli citizens.

More I write the more I realise how little I know so these are just casual observations to something which is a lot more complex than my understanding.

 

[P.D.]

Could Netanyahu be in a jam here. Some media are now reporting that he knew an attack was incoming (he previously denied knowing this) and either dismissed it or thought it would be not as serious as it turned out and could use it as a distraction from the democracy protests. Does this sound plausible?

It does sound hard to believe that they didn't have any intelligence on it when you read how in depth their surveillance is. Supposedly Egypt told them something big was happening.

We'll find out in time but that government is incredibly right wing, some of the people in the coalition like the security minister sound worse than the MAGA cult.

 

[glasgowspur]

Really sad state of affairs, i have read what I can and try to be open minded, coming from a British Indian background, i know full well history is written by the victors so you cannot take things at face value.

I find it fascinating the media role in all this. Israel is of strategic importance for the US and it's allies, so the media we consume in the UK is often painted with this in mind. Tweaks to the language when discussing Palestine vs Israel. Really important people dig deeper into the issue.

Honestly I think in situations like this, and unfortunately there's a lot of them, the average person in the street would be more than happy getting on with life and each other but certain factions higher up want the conflict to suit their own ends.
Whether it's for power, money or both the masses are kept in a constant state of misery to fuel the conflict.

As this is one of the oldest and most complex of disputes it's like the gordian knot, and until the time comes there's a genuine will to put the past behind us and move forward it will continue. There is no end to this by looking at historical events.

I personally cannot begin to imagine the pressure either side is living under so my understanding is always going to be flawed. The media is so tainted I trust nothing it tells me, each side is from what I can see so entrenched that i struggle to get a "truth".
My sympathy goes out to anyone who has lost loved ones on either side, these are terrible events being inflicted on human beings, we should keep that in mind.

 

[Diamond Lights]

100%, ultimately i dont care about agenda's, when it comes to killing civilians, that's just not on. It's a circle though, we can look at what has happened this weekend, but no doubt go back one or two weeks ago and almost something similar from the other side would have happened.

The other thing that surprises me, and I don't know the full international law here, but surely there's resolutions in place that should mean Israel cannot do some of the things it is doing? Cutting off water/energy for example, is that allowed under international conventions? Like, i had a quick read and apparently it is, but then, absolutely no condemnation on the retaliatory actions (again, not here to say how we got here).

Just now a University was bombed in Gaza. If the Taliban did that, it would be a news story. If Russia did that to Ukraine, it would be a news story. Yet here, it's kind of accepted in the Israel/Palestine conflict and back to my point on the media, it's almost ignored. Mental.

 

[P.D.]

100%, ultimately i dont care about agenda's, when it comes to killing civilians, that's just not on. It's a circle though, we can look at what has happened this weekend, but no doubt go back one or two weeks ago and almost something similar from the other side would have happened.

The other thing that surprises me, and I don't know the full international law here, but surely there's resolutions in place that should mean Israel cannot do some of the things it is doing? Cutting off water/energy for example, is that allowed under international conventions? Like, i had a quick read and apparently it is, but then, absolutely no condemnation on the retaliatory actions (again, not here to say how we got here).

Just now a University was bombed in Gaza. If the Taliban did that, it would be a news story. If Russia did that to Ukraine, it would be a news story. Yet here, it's kind of accepted in the Israel/Palestine conflict and back to my point on the media, it's almost ignored. Mental.

Everything I've read says that cutting off power and water is a war crime.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Cheers for the post, I too try to keep an open mind and try to expand on my limited knowledge.

Could you expand on the claim that Israel wants Gaza to progress and become a functional state?

From what I've seen I struggle to see that real wish for a two state solution from Israel. As totalspurs points out Palestine is/was more than the Gaza strip. With what borders and under which conditions would Israel want Palestine to exist as an independent state?

Netanyahu's views on a two state solution seem rather clear. I struggle to square his views and Isreal's actions over the years with your claim about Isreal's wish.

This bit is relatively simple. Isreal has stable peaceful international relationships with Egypt, Jordan, and others. Isreal would bite your arm off for the same with an independent Gaza. Of course, you can't work with a state that's run by Hamas and wants to destroy you, can you? How would that work?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Everything I've read says that cutting off power and water is a war crime.

What about if you just stop supplying water and power to a neighbouring state?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't disagree but we need to distinguish between Hamas who are hideous and Palestinians who I'm guessing in the main are normal people that just want to live their lives.

It's not about control, the little I know seems to indicate that not enough effort has gone into mediating this over the years or enforcing previous agreements, look at this list of UN security resolutions on Israel for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel - countless resolutions but it seems little effort has gone into doing much about them. Trump for all his faults at least started something with the Abraham Accords. The US alone have vetoed over 40 resolutions on Israel. As a byside another thing that needs to be reformed is the UN and this stupid veto that only applies to 5 countries.

We'll have to wait for things to settle down but I see that there's public shelters in Israel and people living near the border have re-enforced panic rooms in their houses. That's no way for anyone to live.

On Palestinians the blockade might not be as severe as the media make out and I don't know enough about it but what about their rights. Are they allowed Israeli passports for example? Are they entitled to benefits? Are their rights the same as Israeli citizens.

More I write the more I realise how little I know so these are just casual observations to something which is a lot more complex than my understanding.

There has been so much attention and attempts over the decades. Other regions with equally challanging conflicts don't get half as much attention. Tony Blair trying to atone for Iraq, and every retired politician looking to solve the biggest puzzle, chip up to Isreal to have a bash. And there have been successes and periods of peace. But if Iran and others are feeding hatred by funding Hamas on one side, as well as right-wing more fundamentalist Isreali settlers, American funding on the other side, the bridges and fragile peace are quickly destroyed.

Re. Gaza it depends on whether you see it as a dependency of Isreal or its own independent state. It is both and neither at the moment. If a dependency then yes Isreal should provide water, equal rights etc. But as a separate entity, it would not need to. I think politicians in Isreal understand that they need to build Gaza up so it can self-govern and be independent. And many in the Arab world are onside with this. Oil states pay for the various Palestinian Authorities. But it is snakes and ladders, and as soon as something like this happens Isreal almost has no choice - it has to serve its electorate and pound through Gaza and take out Hamas. The US set the benchmark for that post-September 11th. We know its flawed and can create greater instability. War is (almost) never the answer, and tends to create more problems than it solves.

 

[P.D.]

What about if you just stop supplying water and power to a neighbouring state?

Feels like the same thing to me.

There has been so much attention and attempts over the decades. Other regions with equally challanging conflicts don't get half as much attention. Tony Blair trying to atone for Iraq, and every retired politician looking to solve the biggest puzzle, chip up to Isreal to have a bash. And there have been successes and periods of peace. But if Iran and others are feeding hatred by funding Hamas on one side, as well as right-wing more fundamentalist Isreali settlers, American funding on the other side, the bridges and fragile peace are quickly destroyed.

Re. Gaza it depends on whether you see it as a dependency of Isreal or its own independent state. It is both and neither at the moment. If a dependency then yes Isreal should provide water, equal rights etc. But as a separate entity, it would not need to. I think politicians in Isreal understand that they need to build Gaza up so it can self-govern and be independent. And many in the Arab world are onside with this. Oil state paying for the various Palestinian Authorities. But it is snakes and ladders, and as soon as something like this happens Isreal almost has no choice - it has to serve its electorate and pound through Gaza and take out Hamas. The US set the benchmark for that post-September 11th. We know its flawed and can create greater instability. War is (almost) never the answer, and tends to create more problems than it solves.

No doubt but what about the West Bank which doesn't seem to have so many issues, thats still occupied as well I believe.

You highlight the problem, retired politicians. They should have been trying to do something about it whilst they were actual politicians and had some influence. The whole situation is completely out of control and sadly thousands of innocent civilians are going to pay the price for it - really horrible to see.

 

[Diamond Lights]

What about if you just stop supplying water and power to a neighbouring state?

Slightly disingenuous take on it, but again, apparently under international law you cannot take collective action against a state/people like halting water and energy.

An eye for an eye will turn the whole world blind.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Feels like the same thing to me.



No doubt but what about the West Bank which doesn't seem to have so many issues, thats still occupied as well I believe.

So you're holding Egypt to account for these crimes too? Or just Isreal?

You highlight the problem, retired politicians. They should have been trying to do something about it whilst they were actual politicians and had some influence. The whole situation is completely out of control and sadly thousands of innocent civilians are going to pay the price for it - really horrible to see.

It is not for a lack of external effort. The issues reside in the history of the region.

Ashkenazi jews, who are still alive today, fled homes and communities across the Middle East as various Arab states and populations ostracised them. It was partly as a result of the formation of Isreal, and partly plain old prejudice. The tension pre-dates modern Isreal and any actions it has or has not taken. It exists today, for example. And other in-group strife exists in the middle east too. Coptic Christians were a huge part of Cario and Egypt and the middle east. There are very few left. In most of the middle east all three religions were represented and lived side by side for thousands of years. In the last 70 odd years that has changed. Even within Islam there are factions - Shai and Sunni tensions cause massive conflicts too. So (others not you) attributing the disharmony in Isreal to the actions of the Israli state is an oversimplification.

What I would ask of those who rightly flag up what Isreal has done wrong or those who are anti-Zionist, is what would you suggest was done differently? No doubt mistakes are made. But how should things be improved? That is the key question.

 

[Rorschach]

100%, ultimately i dont care about agenda's, when it comes to killing civilians, that's just not on. It's a circle though, we can look at what has happened this weekend, but no doubt go back one or two weeks ago and almost something similar from the other side would have happened.

The other thing that surprises me, and I don't know the full international law here, but surely there's resolutions in place that should mean Israel cannot do some of the things it is doing? Cutting off water/energy for example, is that allowed under international conventions? Like, i had a quick read and apparently it is, but then, absolutely no condemnation on the retaliatory actions (again, not here to say how we got here).

Just now a University was bombed in Gaza. If the Taliban did that, it would be a news story. If Russia did that to Ukraine, it would be a news story. Yet here, it's kind of accepted in the Israel/Palestine conflict and back to my point on the media, it's almost ignored. Mental.

The rules-based world order is breaking down fast. The Geneva Convention is now a minor irritant to some actors, including states. Applebaum wrote a dark piece on it recently which I'll post a link to later when I get a min.#

https://archive.ph/TTKu1

 

[Gutter Boy]

This bit is relatively simple. Isreal has stable peaceful international relationships with Egypt, Jordan, and others. Isreal would bite your arm off for the same with an independent Gaza. Of course, you can't work with a state that's run by Hamas and wants to destroy you, can you? How would that work?

It's only when you do work with Hamas that peace comes. See the Good Friday agreement - it was bringing Sein Fein/the IRA in that made that work, just the moderate SDLP (Fatah) wouldn't have worked. Ditto the DUP, not just the moderate UUs.

 

[dawaxman]

It's only when you do work with Hamas that peace comes. See the Good Friday agreement - it was bringing Sein Fein/the IRA in that made that work, just the moderate SDLP (Fatah) wouldn't have worked. Ditto the DUP, not just the moderate UUs.

"Work with Hamas"??? Are you for real? Have you seen their 'manifesto'?

I know how this script goes... just get rid of the Jews and there will be peace

Read this and see if it resonates:

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

 

[braineclipse]

This bit is relatively simple. Isreal has stable peaceful international relationships with Egypt, Jordan, and others. Isreal would bite your arm off for the same with an independent Gaza. Of course, you can't work with a state that's run by Hamas and wants to destroy you, can you? How would that work?

An independent Gaza. Thus any land occupied or settled by Israel as a part of Israel then?

How does that work? We want a peaceful relationship and also keep the land we've occupied and settled. How would you feel about such a peace as the one who had your land occupied?

 

[SpurMeUp]

An independent Gaza. Thus any land occupied or settled by Israel as a part of Israel then?

How does that work? We want a peaceful relationship and also keep the land we've occupied and settled. How would you feel about such a peace as the one who had your land occupied?

Are we negotiating!?

There are various lines and dates. The Oslo accord for example. When there was a sustained period of peace (for maybe as long as a decade? Need to check) Isreal did give up some settlements.

This is land Isreal took off Egypt in the 6 day war in 1967. So Isreal is granting the land to an independent Palestine in a way is it not? As noted above, the truth is Isreal would happily return Gaza to Egypt. Let it be their problem, rather than try and control and work with people who hate you. But Egypt has no interest in taking it back. It fears being saddled with more Islamic groups and keeps its side of the fence firmly closed.

So enough criticisms, what is it you are suggesting?

 

[braineclipse]

Are we negotiating!?

There are various lines and dates. The Oslo accord for example. When there was a sustained period of peace (for maybe as long as a decade? Need to check) Isreal did give up some settlements.

This is land Isreal took off Egypt in the 6 day war in 1967. So Isreal is granting the land to an independent Palestine in a way is it not? As noted above, the truth is Isreal would happily return Gaza to Egypt. Let it be their problem, rather than try and control and work with people who hate you. But Egypt has no interest in taking it back. It fears being saddled with more Islamic groups and keeps its side of the fence firmly closed.

So enough criticisms, what is it you are suggesting?

The only path to a peace I can see is a compromise between the two sides where both make significant concessions on what they would actually like to happen. There is no solution that pleases everyone.

That won't happen. The alternative is the continued suffering of millions. The continued vilification of both sides. The continued existence of conditions that will lead to extremism on both sides. We'll still be talking about this until we no longer bother to. Then it will flare up. Around and around it goes until the next generation will then also fail to find a solution.

There is no solution unless both sides can accept that they will have to make real and so far unacceptable concessions to work towards peace.

I see no willingness to do that on the Israeli side, the side with overwhelming military power. If the side with the overwhelming military power can't do that it simply won't happen.

 

[dawaxman]

The only path to a peace I can see is a compromise between the two sides where both make significant concessions on what they would actually like to happen. There is no solution that pleases everyone.

That won't happen. The alternative is the continued suffering of millions. The continued vilification of both sides. The continued existence of conditions that will lead to extremism on both sides. We'll still be talking about this until we no longer bother to. Then it will flare up. Around and around it goes until the next generation will then also fail to find a solution.

There is no solution unless both sides can accept that they will have to make real and so far unacceptable concessions to work towards peace.

I see no willingness to do that on the Israeli side, the side with overwhelming military power. If the side with the overwhelming military power can't do that it simply won't happen.

There is willingness on the Israeli side

There is no willingness on the Hamas side... their only solution is to erase Israel off the face of the planet

 

[DTA]

Are we negotiating!?

There are various lines and dates. The Oslo accord for example. When there was a sustained period of peace (for maybe as long as a decade? Need to check) Isreal did give up some settlements.

This is land Isreal took off Egypt in the 6 day war in 1967. So Isreal is granting the land to an independent Palestine in a way is it not? As noted above, the truth is Isreal would happily return Gaza to Egypt. Let it be their problem, rather than try and control and work with people who hate you. But Egypt has no interest in taking it back. It fears being saddled with more Islamic groups and keeps its side of the fence firmly closed.

So enough criticisms, what is it you are suggesting?

Israel is going to go in hard into Gaza, and if I’m being absolutely honest I can understand why. But the Israeli prime minister said that civilians should get out of the way… well you need to give them somewhere to go.

Once you get out the civilians (I know this is almost impossible- but you should try otherwise what’s the alternative, even more civilians die) … then you go in hard seek and destroy Hamas without remorse.

but at the same time as this you offer The PLO the 1967 borders (this is the internationally recognised borders) - minus Gaza. Make it clear that this is not for negotiation this is the offer peace for the generation.

in effect a very big carrot and very big stick.

Then you work to make the Palestinian state viable with massive funding from the world. And Israel its biggest trading partner like EU did after ww2.