Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[Yiddo]

It’s just utter gonad*s how time after time all over the world innocent people lose their lives over disagreements from the powers that be whilst they sit in the background safe and sound.

The powers of the world need to designate a patch of land and any disagreement get sorted within that land, kill each other, shake hands do what ever you want but well away from innocent citizens.

 

[kb 1984]

Again I have to ask a simple question.
Do you believe Hamas has the interests of the Palestinian people at heart (or even occasionally on the surface)?

I have seen nothing from Hamas specifically which illustrates them looking out for the Palestinian people.
It's a really, really important point, because the world is whizzing into pro this and anti that at warp speed right now. And I think the vast majority of us feel enormously terrible about the plight of the innocent Palestinians caught in this. So it is important, IMO anyway, to see WHO is actually HELPING them. And to my eyes, it is NOT Hamas. in ANY way, shape, or form. Also, and we should not forget this, a historic agreement with Saudi Arabia was on the table (which would've helped Palestine enormously by proxy) and suddenly, a deadly attack on innocent Israeli's was perpetrated.

My family were Bahá'í. I myself was not raised with any religion (my father abstained, my Mum -raised an Irish catholic- ditched it when she moved from Wexford as a teenager).
That Bahá'í family of mine were fudged and displaced by the extremist revolutionaries in '78. They lost everything. I have never been able to confirm it, but there was word of casualties. We lost contact for decades, save the odd letter. I was once asked if I would please send some books, but to make them 'subtle'. I chose AA Milne's Winnie The Pooh books. I had one thank you. That was 12 years ago. I hope they've hung in. Thanks to the extremist running that country, I will NEVER get to see a significant part of my bloodline and heritage.

I will personally NOT call the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah anything other than extremists and terrorists. That is what they are. In my opinion, they are an enemy to the vast majority of Palestinians and Middle Eastern people. This is a very, very important factor.

I am absolutely sickened, sickened, by the hospital bombing by the way.I shouldn't have to say that, just like I shouldn't have to say I feel incredibly sorry for all the innocent Palestinian people (I feel sorry for ALL innocent people in this).

My Jewish friends are very scared right now. They are getting it left and right everywhere from everyone. Because Israel is led by Nethanyahu, they are on the rececing end of some vicious verbal (and in some cases, physical) attacks. A lot of poor, angry, disaffected youth are being manipulated by extremists across the world right now. And, again, I don't see Hamas doing anything to actually HELP the Palestinian people.

I have said little because this is such a hotbed subject. As ever, I offer this in the spirit of discussion for everyone, and wish everyone the very best...a special mention (again) to MY friends Jonny and Roy who are both in a lot of pain and fear for various reasons. And if anyone on this forum is suffering in such a way, I'm sending you a big hug...

Thanks for sharing in my humble opinion no terrorist organisation gives a flying fudge what happens to innocent people. Hamas want the Arab world to turn on Israel & the blowing up of a hospital seems to have done just that. All the leaders of countries that were meant to meet Biden have pulled out.

Here in Sydney two men were arrested after they did nazi salutes & shouted Nazi slogans outside the holocaust museum. They were charged with hate crimes & bailed. I would have left them in cells until they could be bought before a magistrate.

 

[braineclipse]

Again I have to ask a simple question.
Do you believe Hamas has the interests of the Palestinian people at heart (or even occasionally on the surface)?

I have seen nothing from Hamas specifically which illustrates them looking out for the Palestinian people.
It's a really, really important point, because the world is whizzing into pro this and anti that at warp speed right now. And I think the vast majority of us feel enormously terrible about the plight of the innocent Palestinians caught in this. So it is important, IMO anyway, to see WHO is actually HELPING them. And to my eyes, it is NOT Hamas. in ANY way, shape, or form. Also, and we should not forget this, a historic agreement with Saudi Arabia was on the table (which would've helped Palestine enormously by proxy) and suddenly, a deadly attack on innocent Israeli's was perpetrated.

My family were Bahá'í. I myself was not raised with any religion (my father abstained, my Mum -raised an Irish catholic- ditched it when she moved from Wexford as a teenager).
That Bahá'í family of mine were fudged and displaced by the extremist revolutionaries in '78. They lost everything. I have never been able to confirm it, but there was word of casualties. We lost contact for decades, save the odd letter. I was once asked if I would please send some books, but to make them 'subtle'. I chose AA Milne's Winnie The Pooh books. I had one thank you. That was 12 years ago. I hope they've hung in. Thanks to the extremist running that country, I will NEVER get to see a significant part of my bloodline and heritage.

I will personally NOT call the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah anything other than extremists and terrorists. That is what they are. In my opinion, they are an enemy to the vast majority of Palestinians and Middle Eastern people. This is a very, very important factor.

I am absolutely sickened, sickened, by the hospital bombing by the way.I shouldn't have to say that, just like I shouldn't have to say I feel incredibly sorry for all the innocent Palestinian people (I feel sorry for ALL innocent people in this).

My Jewish friends are very scared right now. They are getting it left and right everywhere from everyone. Because Israel is led by Nethanyahu, they are on the rececing end of some vicious verbal (and in some cases, physical) attacks. A lot of poor, angry, disaffected youth are being manipulated by extremists across the world right now. And, again, I don't see Hamas doing anything to actually HELP the Palestinian people.

I have said little because this is such a hotbed subject. As ever, I offer this in the spirit of discussion for everyone, and wish everyone the very best...a special mention (again) to MY friends Jonny and Roy who are both in a lot of pain and fear for various reasons. And if anyone on this forum is suffering in such a way, I'm sending you a big hug...

They obviously have at least some support amongst the Palestinian population. The level of support is difficult to judge. To the extent they're doing what the Palestinian population wants I guess it could be said they have their interests at heart.

That being said, no they are not looking out for the Palestinian people in my opinion and the way I see it. They are a terrorist organisation and vicious in their approach.

But I do think it's worth considering what factors lead to Hamas and their like gaining power and influence and followers. To consider if there are underlying concerns that are worth taking seriously.

On a personal note. That seems horrible to experience. Feel sorry for you mate.

 

[thfcsteff]

Again I have to ask a simple question.
Do you believe Hamas has the interests of the Palestinian people at heart (or even occasionally on the surface)?

I have seen nothing from Hamas specifically which illustrates them looking out for the Palestinian people.
It's a really, really important point, because the world is whizzing into pro this and anti that at warp speed right now. And I think the vast majority of us feel enormously terrible about the plight of the innocent Palestinians caught in this. So it is important, IMO anyway, to see WHO is actually HELPING them. And to my eyes, it is NOT Hamas. in ANY way, shape, or form.

My family were Bahá'í. I myself was not raised with any religion (my father abstained, my Mum -raised an Irish catholic- ditched it when she moved from Wexford as a teenager).
That Bahá'í family of mine were fudged and displaced by the extremist revolutionaries in '78. They lost everything. I have never been able to confirm it, but there was word of casualties. We lost contact for decades, save the odd letter. I was once asked if I would please send some books, but to make them 'subtle'. I chose AA Milne's Winnie The Pooh books. I had one thank you. That was 12 years ago. I hope they've hung in. Thanks to the extremists running that country, I will NEVER get to see a significant part of my bloodline and heritage.

Hezbollah was born from that time. To me (and most of the west) Hamas and Hezbollah anything other than extremists and terrorists. That is what they are. In my opinion, they are an enemy to the vast majority of Palestinians and Middle Eastern people. This is a very, very important factor. Hezbollah getting (potentially) fully involved is a very,very dangerous thing.
What is beyond awful, is that without our meddling in the region for many decades (starting
with the interference in Iran during the 50s and removal of Mossadegh through to Afghanistan in the late 70s/early 80s, through to Iraq, the list goes on) these dangerous entities would not have got oxygen enough to have any influence.

I am absolutely sickened, sickened, by the hospital bombing by the way.I shouldn't have to say that, just like I shouldn't have to say I feel incredibly sorry for all the innocent Palestinian people (I feel sorry for ALL innocent people in this). The aid corridors need to be opened immediately, as we all agree.

My Jewish friends are very scared right now. They are getting it left and right everywhere from everyone. Because Israel is led by Nethanyahu, they are on the receiving end of some vicious verbal abuse and threats. A lot of poor, angry, disaffected youth are being manipulated by extremists across the world right now. And, again, I don't see Hamas doing anything to actually HELP the Palestinian people.

I have said little because this is such a hotbed subject. As ever, I offer this in the spirit of discussion for everyone, and wish everyone the very best...a special mention (again) to MY friends Jonny and Roy who are both in a lot of pain and fear. And if anyone on this forum is suffering in such a way, I'm sending you a big hug...

 

[thfcsteff]

They obviously have at least some support amongst the Palestinian population. The level of support is difficult to judge. To the extent they're doing what the Palestinian population wants I guess it could be said they have their interests at heart.

That being said, no they are not looking out for the Palestinian people in my opinion and the way I see it. They are a terrorist organisation and vicious in their approach.

But I do think it's worth considering what factors lead to Hamas and their like gaining power and influence and followers. To consider if there are underlying concerns that are worth taking seriously.

On a personal note. That seems horrible to experience. Feel sorry for you mate.

With regards to 'factors which led to Hamas', etc, I actually added this paragraph in a re-write of the above. I have read about this sort of stuff for a long, long time. It is , I agree, important to acknowledge, b ut equally, it is vital to acknowledge the current situation as it is, and determine how to best achieve peace.

"Hezbollah was born from that time. To me (and most of the west) Hamas and Hezbollah anything other than extremists and terrorists. That is what they are. In my opinion, they are an enemy to the vast majority of Palestinians and Middle Eastern people. This is a very, very important factor. Hezbollah getting (potentially) fully involved is a very,very dangerous thing.
What is beyond awful, is that without our meddling in the region for many decades (starting
with the interference in Iran during the 50s and removal of Mossadegh through to Afghanistan in the late 70s/early 80s, through to Iraq, the list goes on) these dangerous entities would not have got oxygen enough to have any influence."

Of course they have some support, but largely from desperate, tired, poor people who are being manipulated as much by the likes of Hamas as anyone else.

I am interested to discuss the boldface above mate. I don't understand what you're saying, and would like to know.

 

[braineclipse]

I've been thinking about this civilian thing

We, in the west, think of war as being an honorable thing

Going into 'the field' and fighting soldiers vs soldiers

But, if one side doesn't want to be honorable, they can simply take 2 of their own civilians per soldier/terrorist and do whatever they want, knowing that any return-fire will kill 2 civilians on top of every soldier

Like I said before, a good government/army does ALL it can to protect its peoples

Therefore it should be moving all terrorist targets AWAY from civilian areas

But that's not happening


*This post is NOT excusing the bombing of the hospital earlier*

It's true that this was the common conception of war up until around WW1. It no longer should be.

To be clear. There are a lot of honorable acts done in wars. But war itself isn't honorable. There's a lot of bravery in war, on all sides. But bravery isn't necessarily honorable. There are people who still think of war as honorable, I don't think most people do in "the west". To the extent that people do I wish they would change their minds.

Good governments protects its people. A good government also works to protect and help other people and to try to work towards a more peaceful and just world.

 

[kb 1984]

With regards to 'factors which led to Hamas', etc, I actually added this paragraph in a re-write of the above. I have read about this sort of stuff for a long, long time. It is , I agree, important to acknowledge, b ut equally, it is vital to acknowledge the current situation as it is, and determine how to best achieve peace.

"Hezbollah was born from that time. To me (and most of the west) Hamas and Hezbollah anything other than extremists and terrorists. That is what they are. In my opinion, they are an enemy to the vast majority of Palestinians and Middle Eastern people. This is a very, very important factor. Hezbollah getting (potentially) fully involved is a very,very dangerous thing.
What is beyond awful, is that without our meddling in the region for many decades (starting
with the interference in Iran during the 50s and removal of Mossadegh through to Afghanistan in the late 70s/early 80s, through to Iraq, the list goes on) these dangerous entities would not have got oxygen enough to have any influence."

Of course they have some support, but largely from desperate, tired, poor people who are being manipulated as much by the likes of Hamas as anyone else.

I am interested to discuss the boldface above mate. I don't understand what you're saying, and would like to know.

I watched an interview with a reporter earlier who lives in Gaza. He said about 30 % of the people living in Gaza supported Hamas & they were mostly young men with no future & no hope. I guess if we were them we might feel the same

 

[scaramanga]

By the same score, snipers in civilian buildings shooting at Russian troops become legitimate targets then? Because that is what happened in the early phases of the Ukraine war.
(What's right for one to do surely means it is right for all to do..)

It is an exceptionally grey area to knowingly attack a target that houses civilians even if you suspect there are enemies within.

No, because Ukrainian soldiers weren't terrorists that had attacked Russian civilians. Russia didn't need to kill Ukrainian soldiers. Israel has no choice but to wipe out Hamas.

 

[scaramanga]

Anywhere could be a legitimate military target with that logic. Ah well we thought that one of the bad guys was in that building sorry about that. It's like us choosing to invade any random country because we thought there were weapons of mass destruction there.

What's quite amazing (in a horrific way) is how unbelievable both "sides" account's of things are to the point where it's being suggested that people are bombing their own hospitals to frame the side but also folks stating there'll be more bombs and not an ounce of humanitarian aid, the kindness of people who are no doubt executing GHod's benevolent will.

Then you've got Russia suggesting emergency UN meetings while their elected leader has a warrant for war crimes.

Yes, it could.

You know how to stop that? Stop hiding behind civilians, dress like a military and house your military in separate military buildings away from civilians.

 

[scaramanga]

https://x.com/jconricus/status/1714442704971612357?s=20

Yet more double standards. Hamas was not required to provide proof before the BBC blamed Israel. Once Israel countered the anti-Israeli narrative, the BBC required proof from them.

 

[braineclipse]

With regards to 'factors which led to Hamas', etc, I actually added this paragraph in a re-write of the above. I have read about this sort of stuff for a long, long time. It is , I agree, important to acknowledge, b ut equally, it is vital to acknowledge the current situation as it is, and determine how to best achieve peace.

"Hezbollah was born from that time. To me (and most of the west) Hamas and Hezbollah anything other than extremists and terrorists. That is what they are. In my opinion, they are an enemy to the vast majority of Palestinians and Middle Eastern people. This is a very, very important factor. Hezbollah getting (potentially) fully involved is a very,very dangerous thing.
What is beyond awful, is that without our meddling in the region for many decades (starting
with the interference in Iran during the 50s and removal of Mossadegh through to Afghanistan in the late 70s/early 80s, through to Iraq, the list goes on) these dangerous entities would not have got oxygen enough to have any influence."

Of course they have some support, but largely from desperate, tired, poor people who are being manipulated as much by the likes of Hamas as anyone else.

I am interested to discuss the boldface above mate. I don't understand what you're saying, and would like to know.

Cheers for asking me to clarify. I do feel we are in agreement.

What I'm trying to say is that some Palestinians do want Israel wiped off the map. Some Palestinians are not interested in a peaceful solution. Some Palestinians do want to kill as many Jews as possible. In short, some Palestinians are violent extremists. They have their interests well represented by Hamas.

That's not intended as a full answer to the question you pose. I suspect it's not really even a part of an answer to the question you intended to ask. So think of that first part of my answer as a bit of an aside. But I do also think that's important to acknowledge, related to your point about acknowledging the current situation.

Hamas represents, and are, the extremists. They do not have the best interest of the Palestinian people at heart. They have only the interests of the extremists at heart.

But even that's inaccurate imo. Because it depends on what you mean by "interests". A person may want war, conflict, death and destruction. But if they could be given a real human experience of peace, relative safety, progress and coexistence what they want may change. Their interest may change.

If I'm still not making myself clear (as I suggest may be the case), perhaps you could restate and expand on your question. Not that I think it's a bad question at all, but may be that I'm misunderstanding you somewhat.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm with you on that

But, the narrative at this fraught time is so important

If Israel is responsible, then Muslims around the world will riot

Jews in the diaspora will be attacked

Jew hate will escalate

Jordan, Syria, Lebanon will attack Israel from all angles

The US will be forced to condemn Israel

And all of a sudden Israel will be even more alone than it has been until now


If, however, it's NOT the responsibility of Israel, then the opposite of all of the above 'should' be true

(Sadly I don't think it will)

So, these deaths are horrendous, but the repercussions of these deaths will make that number pale into insignificance if its scenario one

(Which makes me believe its what happened less and less)

When things like this happen I tend to consider who has the most to gain from it. If you’re about to get pulverised in a ground offensive then bringing other groups who are sympathetic to your cause is a likely play. Civilians mean nothing to terrorists, even civilians who happen to share the same religion.

 

[braineclipse]

I watched an interview with a reporter earlier who lives in Gaza. He said about 30 % of the people living in Gaza supported Hamas & they were mostly young men with no future & no hope. I guess if we were them we might feel the same

This! 100% this.

Not all of us, and most of us are of lucky enough to never know if that would be us or not. But some of us would.

And that is a very difficult problem to fix with military power, sanctions and reprisals. Most attempts at that seem to only worsen the problem.

 

[scaramanga]

Is it more likely Isreal or Hamas? Isreal who are under extreme pressure from the international community and the US who have specifically told them not to harm innocent people... There is no way Isreali forces intentionally bombed a hospital. It might have been an accident from either side. Or intentional by Hamas, though that seems unlikely too.

With modern precision bombing equipment, I can't see it being Isreal. Most likley is a mistake by Hamas or related forces. We'll probably never know 100%,

Always question the motive when looking for a guilty party.

Hamas benefits greatly from the world believing Israel bombed a hospital. We already know they hold no value to the lives of their own people, and atrocities are kind of their thing.

Israel, on the other hand, has to live in the real world. It needs international partners and allies. It needs us all to join in the fight against anti-Semitism at home and abroad. It loses a lot more than it gains by targeting a hospital without evacuating it first.

Of course, the most likely answer is still an accidental stray missile. Given the technology imbalance, it's far more likely to have come from Gaza than across the border.

 

[braineclipse]

https://x.com/jconricus/status/1714442704971612357?s=20

Yet more double standards. Hamas was not required to provide proof before the BBC blamed Israel. Once Israel countered the anti-Israeli narrative, the BBC required proof from them.

With the caveat that there's a lot of misinformation floating about:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1714409000324706778

If true that Israeli officials first claimed that they did attack that hospital it's rather understanding that the media didn't ask Hamas for proof is it not?

 

[scaramanga]

With the caveat that there's a lot of misinformation floating about:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1714409000324706778

If true that Israeli officials first claimed that they did attack that hospital it's rather understanding that the media didn't ask Hamas for proof is it not?

They've been at pains to find independent verification for pretty much anything else, better journalists would have held their tongue and researched.

I was scanning a number of news sites as the denial and following evidence broke yesterday. All other sources ran with the denial and then the evidence as a main headline. At the point of the denial, the BBC was still running with Israel being to blame, when others were running with the evidence, the BBC was running the denial. I'm sure we're quibbling over small differences here, but those small differences can make a big difference from such an influential broadcaster.

They've gone through mental gymnastics trying to provide a reason not to describe Hamas as terrorists and (being generous) have become imbalanced in an attempt to be balanced. Maybe they should apply that overly cautious approach here.

It also turns out that their Middle East department was full of vermin with a very public anti-Israeli stance. They're only now beginning to clean that up after others have been pointing it out to them.

 

[thfcsteff]

Cheers for asking me to clarify. I do feel we are in agreement.

What I'm trying to say is that some Palestinians do want Israel wiped off the map. Some Palestinians are not interested in a peaceful solution. Some Palestinians do want to kill as many Jews as possible. In short, some Palestinians are violent extremists. They have their interests well represented by Hamas.

That's not intended as a full answer to the question you pose. I suspect it's not really even a part of an answer to the question you intended to ask. So think of that first part of my answer as a bit of an aside. But I do also think that's important to acknowledge, related to your point about acknowledging the current situation.

Hamas represents, and are, the extremists. They do not have the best interest of the Palestinian people at heart. They have only the interests of the extremists at heart.

But even that's inaccurate imo. Because it depends on what you mean by "interests". A person may want war, conflict, death and destruction. But if they could be given a real human experience of peace, relative safety, progress and coexistence what they want may change. Their interest may change.

If I'm still not making myself clear (as I suggest may be the case), perhaps you could restate and expand on your question. Not that I think it's a bad question at all, but may be that I'm misunderstanding you somewhat.

I think your first point is a technical one. Yes, of course. But generally-speaking, I feel confident in saying that most Palestinians do not want that, and I'd wager that even a few who do , do so precisely because of horrible situations.

The second point...I spent a lot of time trying to argue this (IMO) truth post-Afghanistan in the early 80s, pointing out (among other things) that if you promise people help and then fudge them, they will be angry. I am fearful of the knock-on effect right now. Extremists are having a field day harvesting poor, scared, angry youths everywhere, youths who I firmly believe would have no interest in any of this were their conditions better. I look at the billions the likes of Hamas gets, and ponder why more of it does not go to it's people? But I think I know why (sadly).

Poverty is such a tool of control. It always has been hasn't it, and it always will be. We are encroaching on egregiously disproportionate levels of equity in society, and that means a lot of angry people. Easy prey. It is sickening. It is also why I will (at this time) NEVER refer to extremist groups in the regions as 'muslim extremists' because I firmly do not believe that they represent the many millions and millions of muslims (as well as some friends of mine) who want peace and want to just live their lives like we all do.

 

[braineclipse]

I think your first point is a technical one. Yes, of course. But generally-speaking, I feel confident in saying that most Palestinians do not want that, and I'd wager that even a few who do , do so precisely because of horrible situations.

The second point...I spent a lot of time trying to argue this (IMO) truth post-Afghanistan in the early 80s, pointing out (among other things) that if you promise people help and then fudge them, they will be angry. I am fearful of the knock-on effect right now. Extremists are having a field day harvesting poor, scared, angry youths everywhere, youths who I firmly believe would have no interest in any of this were their conditions better. I look at the billions the likes of Hamas gets, and ponder why more of it does not go to it's people? But I think I know why (sadly).

Poverty is such a tool of control. It always has been hasn't it, and it always will be. We are encroaching on egregiously disproportionate levels of equity in society, and that means a lot of angry people. Easy prey. It is sickening. It is also why I will (at this time) NEVER refer to extremist groups in the regions as 'muslim extremists' because I firmly do not believe that they represent the many millions and millions of muslims (as well as some friends of mine) who want peace and want to just live their lives like we all do.

I agree with your description of my first point as a technical one. It's far from my main point on this, but I do think it's important to acknowledge.

I think you're right to be fearful of the knock-on effects. If only more people with power had worried more about that in the past and now.

I do think it's fair to use the term "Muslim extremists", but only if one then uses the same terms for other groups. Something western media has been falling way short on too often imo. Abstaining from those terms is also fine, and probably the better approach given the overall situation. I too have not used those terms now

 

[braineclipse]

They've been at pains to find independent verification for pretty much anything else, better journalists would have held their tongue and researched.

I was scanning a number of news sites as the denial and following evidence broke yesterday. All other sources ran with the denial and then the evidence as a main headline. At the point of the denial, the BBC was still running with Israel being to blame, when others were running with the evidence, the BBC was running the denial. I'm sure we're quibbling over small differences here, but those small differences can make a big difference from such an influential broadcaster.

They've gone through mental gymnastics trying to provide a reason not to describe Hamas as terrorists and (being generous) have become imbalanced in an attempt to be balanced. Maybe they should apply that overly cautious approach here.

It also turns out that their Middle East department was full of vermin with a very public anti-Israeli stance. They're only now beginning to clean that up after others have been pointing it out to them.

You follow the BBC much closer than I do.

I don't know what actually happened. I think condemnations are in order regardless of who's responsible.

The way you see it are Israel to be trusted when they present their denial. Do we then know that it wasn't them?

If yes I think we have a point of different views here.

If yes I think that goes to highlight the difficulty of reporting this during the fog of war. And I don't see conclusion of double standards as warranted.

 

[Trixster]

No, because Ukrainian soldiers weren't terrorists that had attacked Russian civilians. Russia didn't need to kill Ukrainian soldiers. Israel has no choice but to wipe out Hamas.

I'll think you will find that the context around the initial reply was about the legitimacy of marking a civilian infrastructure as a viable target, not whether or not one was a soldier or a nut-job.

Israel may have no choice but to wipe out Hamas, but they DO have a choice in how they go about it. Indiscriminately blowing up civilian infrastructure (if proven/true) with no regard for the innocents isn't they way to do things and it makes them no better than the terrorists.