Ratings v Sunderland

[totman]

,so the price of supporting Spurs is approving of every player in the squad? Using that criteria Tottenham would have very few supporters. Ha, ha. Sandro was clueless yesterday and basically has been a passenger for weeks now. Coincidently since we stopped winning.

I'm not interested in how well he played last year. I'm only interested in how he performs now! Frankly there are better options than him. If he were British, people would be all over his performances ala Jenas, but rumour has it he was born in Brazil. He must be one of the few who can't pass, trap or head a football. Anyway I would be happy to have it rubbed in my face, I only want the team to win.

You are the one who said you never want to wee him play for us again. Im sure he will.....so you may want to watch another team, or you may be very dissapointed over the next few seasons. That is all.

 

[totman]

What is your opinion on how Parker passed the ball against Sunderland? Do you think it was "excellent"?

Possession for the sake of possession and passing for the sake of passing against a team that is parking the bus when we are at 0-0 is not a good thing in my opinion. Exchanging easy, unpressed passes in our own half is not a good thing in those cases. Parker is far from the first player criticized for this.

Just because a 50/108 stat would be terrible doesn't mean a 100/108 stat is excellent.

My point is only that I find it rich that people belittle a pass completion stat of 100/108 due to other factors, yet would happily dismiss other factors if his completion was far less.

Then, the stat would be used to beat him.

 

[braineclipse]

My point is only that I find it rich that people belittle a pass completion stat of 100/108 due to other factors, yet would happily dismiss other factors if his completion was far less.

Then, the stat would be used to beat him.

I can only speak for myself. I have previously discussed Huddlestone's pass completion talking about a lot of different factors. If Parker started making expansive attacking passes, but as a result his completion ratio dropped a bit I don't think I would ignore those other factors, assuming that I noticed he was doing it.

But, in my opinion, the reason people are belittling that stat is the same reason the stat is as high as it is. He almost exclusively makes easy passes and he mainly receives the ball without pressure. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but when the completion stat is brought up it's worth mentioning.

 

[Jimmy-g]

if you have total possession then you should never lose, possession is the most important factor in football without it you will achieve nothing.
If we play Sandro and Parker then Modric is failing badly he creates fudge all, he just has not got it.
If you want to be ultra critical then one top drawer holder could replace both Sandro and Parker, then Modric would be great because he is brilliant at retaining possession. ( we are back to that word)
I would like to see Parker and Huddlestone in the middle with Lennon and Bale wide, then tell VDV to stay further forward and dont wander back.
But hey what do I know, I will settle for fourth and being in the FA semi, I have really enjoyed this season so far.

 

[totman]

Its worth mentioning alright, but then people should just mention it instead of writing things like

There's all kinds of completed passes. One where the recipient has to check his run, turn around and stretch for the ball is not a good one. Neither is playing someone into trouble or needlessly passing to the back 4 when we need to attack.

In my opinion, that is belittling the stat, and Parkers game, and putting a spin on things that his completion rate is so high due to poor and unnecessary passes, which is not the case.

He does the simple things, and that is needed, when we have players like VDV, Modric and Bale to create. Parker doesnt need to drive forward, or start attacks. He is a DM.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I can only speak for myself. I have previously discussed Huddlestone's pass completion talking about a lot of different factors. If Parker started making expansive attacking passes, but as a result his completion ratio dropped a bit I don't think I would ignore those other factors, assuming that I noticed he was doing it.

But, in my opinion, the reason people are belittling that stat is the same reason the stat is as high as it is. He almost exclusively makes easy passes and he mainly receives the ball without pressure. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, but when the completion stat is brought up it's worth mentioning.

Agreed. His off the ball movement in supporting team mates in possession is superb. Another thing Parker doesn't get enough credit for is he is also very good at completing a pass whilst under pressure from an opposition player.

 

[elltrev]

Agreed. His off the ball movement in supporting team mates in possession is superb. Another thing Parker doesn't get enough credit for is he is also very good at completing a pass whilst under pressure from an opposition player.

I definitely agree with your second point, and for that reason I think he's good at playing against teams who press us. I partly agree with your first point, in that he does make himself available, but the downside is that a lot of the time it's because he's moved so close to the player with the ball that it almost doesn't seem worthwhile! And then he often passes it straight back to them with his first touch.

In games where the other team really is camped in their own third and we're dominating possession, I would like to see Parker taken off for someone who is more positive in possession. At this stage I guess it would have to be Livermore, but when Hudd is back it could be him, or preferably we could even try and buy someone (Dembele perhaps?). Generally I think that Modric and Parker as a CM duo give us a great balance. But in games that we're dominating, I think we can afford to replace Parker with someone who is more useful in possession.

 

[africanspurs]

I'm not worried. The problem we had was more down to lack of quality crossing than anything else. The other problem is we need a midfielder like Poyet who runs beyond the forwards, who can have balls threaded to. Modric is meant to be that midfielder in our team but doesn't do it. I don't blame Modric, it's not his natural game. Modric isn't that creative in the final third and hasn't been since he has been at Spurs. What Modric is, is our key player in terms of retaining possession and getting the ball from our back third to the final third in excellent attacking positions. It's that final third where our players like the final ball. Walker and Ekotto's crossing are especially poor. Bale needs to stay wider left and deliver more crosses than he is currently doing.

i dont agree with that either. but i think you remember my take on your view about quality crosses, yours is that it should come to finding a man in the box...mine is that our crosses are just as good as any teams crosses overall , the main difference is that other teams have 3 to 4 or 5 people in the box at any time for a cross. we 'regularly' have one one or two at most...and the second guy is a trailing VDV..i put 'regularly' in inverted commas cause i think its a formation issue. VDV playing in that supporting striker position and him drifting all over the cosmos is a problem for our suppliers. their crosses are not beckham quality and such would struggle to find the single heAD of adebayor in the box. if VDv and ade were in there together often then i think the accuracy would dramatically change.

as for modric's role to go beyond adebayor? i agree.....in the formation we started with yesterday it was his role to break forward. in the formation that has VDV as support striker it is not his role to break forward without adequate defensive cover (i.e industrious wingers or 2 sitters). with one sitter you have alot more defensive responsibilities. top that off with VDV that isnt the best defensive tracker from the wing positions and the fact that we play with two wingers. i cant see how modric is supposed to be the one breaking ahead of ade...it should be bale, lennon, VDV doing that ...and they should be breaking ahead of ade in view of going towards goal.

one other thing is that our movement is not good for a team with our supposed quality and for that reason i think modric's ceative spark in the final third is stifled. for instance when modric has the ball in the final third...VDV comes SHORT!!!!...what the fudge is he doing THAT for??!!! and when VDV gets the ball in the final third the communication between him and ade is odd...ade doesnt regularly break the back line and when he does VDV doesnt really find him as often as someone with his reputation for creativity should,

i dont know , its wierd.

i would like someone to tell me a team where a CM in a 442 with 2 wingers (or two less defensive minded wide men) scored lots of goals for their team. (relatively speaking)

 

[braineclipse]

Its worth mentioning alright, but then people should just mention it instead of writing things like

There's all kinds of completed passes. One where the recipient has to check his run, turn around and stretch for the ball is not a good one. Neither is playing someone into trouble or needlessly passing to the back 4 when we need to attack.

In my opinion, that is belittling the stat, and Parkers game, and putting a spin on things that his completion rate is so high due to poor and unnecessary passes, which is not the case.

He does the simple things, and that is needed, when we have players like VDV, Modric and Bale to create. Parker doesnt need to drive forward, or start attacks. He is a DM.

I think that was an alright description from Scara. Just because a pass is completed doesn't mean it was a good one.

When you say "He does the simple things, and that is needed" are you talking about his passing? If so I disagree.

You need people that stick to their positions, break up counter attacks, tackle, block, etc. Those are the "simple things", although they are not necessarily all that easy. Parker does all of those things brilliantly. But are you saying that if Parker had the passing range of Huddlestone people would be saying "no, he shouldn't do that, we need him to play the simple passes"? I doubt it.

When we play Sandro and Parker together one of them needs to start attacks and pass the ball a bit more expansively, if not we get way too easy to shut down. Blaming Harry for playing the two of them when he shouldn't is in my opinion fine (fudge, I do it all the time), blaming Parker for not pulling off those passes might be a touch unfair, seeing as he's seemingly not capable of doing it, but I still think that observation about his limitations is a fair one, limitations that get multiplied in visibility when he doesn't have the creativity around him that he has when we play Modric and Parker with VdV ahead of them.

 

[DanishWhite]

I don't think it's fair to rate Saha and Defoe individually coming on that late, but when we did change to 4-4-2 straight out, we completely lost any momentum and control over the midfield we may have had.

I don't know if it's Defoe and Saha failing to work hard enough or whether it's the team as a whole better suited to an uneven numbered midfield, but 4-4-2 straight out makes us look silly each time we use it. I suspect the former. IMHO the need to do MUCH more pressing and the need to move MUCH more off the ball when we break play. Both of them.

 

[braineclipse]

if you have total possession then you should never lose, possession is the most important factor in football without it you will achieve nothing.
If we play Sandro and Parker then Modric is failing badly he creates fudge all, he just has not got it.
If you want to be ultra critical then one top drawer holder could replace both Sandro and Parker, then Modric would be great because he is brilliant at retaining possession. ( we are back to that word)
I would like to see Parker and Huddlestone in the middle with Lennon and Bale wide, then tell VDV to stay further forward and dont wander back.
But hey what do I know, I will settle for fourth and being in the FA semi, I have really enjoyed this season so far.

You would drop Modric for Parker/Huddlestone?

It's not being ultra-critical imo. Just pointing out that we need more creativity in the centre than Parker and Sandro provide.

Agreed. His off the ball movement in supporting team mates in possession is superb. Another thing Parker doesn't get enough credit for is he is also very good at completing a pass whilst under pressure from an opposition player.

If you think Parker's off the ball movement is superb, how would you describe Modric's off the ball movement? For me he is somewhere between average and good at this, clearly an upgrade on Palacios for example, but not as good as Lucas (both playing similar positions).

I agree that Parker is quite good under pressure, again I think "very good" is an overstatement and you'll be running out of superlatives before you reach the players in the world that are actually very good at that. But whilst he is quite good at that, he rarely gets involved in our buildup play under pressure. If he makes himself available for a pass he is either alone without pressure on him, or if he has pressure on him he then passes the ball straight back where it came from, we don't advance possession, we just keep it, recycle possession I would call it. When we need tempo on the ball to shift an organized team out of position that doesn't do it.

When playing in the deeper role alongside more creative players that's rarely a problem, but when playing alongside another player who has the same weaknesses it becomes a problem.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think it's fair to rate Saha and Defoe individually coming on that late, but when we did change to 4-4-2 straight out, we completely lost any momentum and control over the midfield we may have had.

I don't know if it's Defoe and Saha failing to work hard enough or whether it's the team as a whole better suited to an uneven numbered midfield, but 4-4-2 straight out makes us look silly each time we use it. I suspect the former. IMHO the need to do MUCH more pressing and the need to move MUCH more off the ball when we break play. Both of them.

Saha and Defoe reminds me of Pav and Defoe. Two strikers, both wanting to be in very advanced positions, neither player great at link-up play although Saha does have a bit of height and can work as a target man to a half way decent degree. If you create chances they will score, but you won't create as many chances as when you have someone like Ade or VdV in there.

4-4-2 with Ade and Saha or Ade and Defoe has not made us look silly imo.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

You would drop Modric for Parker/Huddlestone?

It's not being ultra-critical imo. Just pointing out that we need more creativity in the centre than Parker and Sandro provide.



If you think Parker's off the ball movement is superb, how would you describe Modric's off the ball movement? For me he is somewhere between average and good at this, clearly an upgrade on Palacios for example, but not as good as Lucas (both playing similar positions).

I agree that Parker is quite good under pressure, again I think "very good" is an overstatement and you'll be running out of superlatives before you reach the players in the world that are actually very good at that. But whilst he is quite good at that, he rarely gets involved in our buildup play under pressure. If he makes himself available for a pass he is either alone without pressure on him, or if he has pressure on him he then passes the ball straight back where it came from, we don't advance possession, we just keep it, recycle possession I would call it. When we need tempo on the ball to shift an organized team out of position that doesn't do it.

When playing in the deeper role alongside more creative players that's rarely a problem, but when playing alongside another player who has the same weaknesses it becomes a problem.

We are talking about supporting movement still right? In that case Modric's off the ball movement is world class. However neither him or Parker have excellent movement going forward. I'd expect that from Parker (being a DM). Modric's needs to be better I think.

 

[braineclipse]

We are talking about supporting movement still right? In that case Modric's off the ball movement is world class. However neither him or Parker have excellent movement going forward. I'd expect that from Parker (being a DM). Modric's needs to be better I think.

I agree with all of that. Apart from the Modric needing to improve his movement going forward, but that's more with what I think his best role is more than anything.

Only thing I don't agree with is Parker having superb supporting movement.

 

[Jimmy-g]

Saha and Defoe reminds me of Pav and Defoe. Two strikers, both wanting to be in very advanced positions, neither player great at link-up play although Saha does have a bit of height and can work as a target man to a half way decent degree. If you create chances they will score, but you won't create as many chances as when you have someone like Ade or VdV in there.

4-4-2 with Ade and Saha or Ade and Defoe has not made us look silly imo.

Our strikers have a really difficult job, our build up is very slow, teams put men behind the ball and we end up passing about in front of them for 1/2 hour, they dont defend a high line because when the game gets stretched we are excellent, our central midfield players ( any of them) to not play the ball quickly over the top so that our strikers can make runs, the game is normally too compressed, we have missed Tom enormously in this respect, we cant go down the sides because the opposing teams double up and always have men behind the ball, the answer is for our creative central players VDV and Modric to carry the ball and commit the oppositions players, they dont do this, Modric in fact plays so deep its a joke, why play both Sandro and Parker when Modric is so deep anyway, also I do think that Modric is underated defensively.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I agree with all of that. Apart from the Modric needing to improve his movement going forward, but that's more with what I think his best role is more than anything.

Only thing I don't agree with is Parker having superb supporting movement.

Watch him more closely then. Under pressure or not, Parker is almost always available for a short pass in the midfield.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

You are the one who said you never want to wee him play for us again. Im sure he will.....so you may want to watch another team, or you may be very dissapointed over the next few seasons. That is all.

Not if he continues to play in the same way he has over the last few weeks I wont.

 

[braineclipse]

Our strikers have a really difficult job, our build up is very slow, teams put men behind the ball and we end up passing about in front of them for 1/2 hour, they dont defend a high line because when the game gets stretched we are excellent, our central midfield players ( any of them) to not play the ball quickly over the top so that our strikers can make runs, the game is normally too compressed, we have missed Tom enormously in this respect, we cant go down the sides because the opposing teams double up and always have men behind the ball, the answer is for our creative central players VDV and Modric to carry the ball and commit the oppositions players, they dont do this, Modric in fact plays so deep its a joke, why play both Sandro and Parker when Modric is so deep anyway, also I do think that Modric is underated defensively.

I disagree that Modric doesn't carry the ball and commit the opponents, I think he does this well. I agree that we have missed Tom.

Why play Sandro and Parker? Well. I don't know. I've spent more time writing those words than I care to admit, but I've also spent quite a bit of time saying that Modric is underrated defensively so we agree on most things

Watch him more closely then. Under pressure or not, Parker is almost always available for a short pass in the midfield.

But when he gets that short pass what does he do with the ball? Most of the time he just gives it back to the player it came from in the same position he was before giving the ball to Parker.. That player might just as well have taken another couple of touches. It doesn't add anything to our game. Better movement from him would have been to get into a position where he could then pass the ball forward, set up some one-twos to bypass opponents or something like that. We don't have to recycle possession when we already have possession without pressure from the opponents.

 

[braineclipse]

Not if he continues to play in the same way he has over the last few weeks I wont.

For me Sandro needs a pre-season. After a great first season he got his entire summer, the Copa America and then the first 3 months of the season ruined by injuries. Since coming back he's had some more smaller injuries. He has looked clumsy, inaccurate and a bit cumbersome this season as a result. The Sunderland game was probably his worst this season, but his previous games haven't been great either. A nice summer holiday without an international tournament, a proper pre-season and some instructions (or initiative) to practice his close control and passing, starting now and continuing thru the summer and I predict the return of the beast that is Sandro next season.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

For me Sandro needs a pre-season. After a great first season he got his entire summer, the Copa America and then the first 3 months of the season ruined by injuries. Since coming back he's had some more smaller injuries. He has looked clumsy, inaccurate and a bit cumbersome this season as a result. The Sunderland game was probably his worst this season, but his previous games haven't been great either. A nice summer holiday without an international tournament, a proper pre-season and some instructions (or initiative) to practice his close control and passing, starting now and continuing thru the summer and I predict the return of the beast that is Sandro next season.

I agree with this. Good post!