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Politics, politics, politics

SpurMeUp said:
Parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

Was the only option.
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You have to say it's a very clever negotiating strategy by the Government. If they don't like the deal we are offered, even if it is they who have negotiated it, and vote against it, we leave anyway on WTO terms. This is not a vote on whether to leave (we had that); it a straight choice for parliament between No Deal and the Negotiated Deal.

Davis can now say to Barnier that any deal (including the divorce settlement) must be acceptable by the whole of parliament as, if not, we all end up on WTO terms and the EU do not get a penny. It is then an all parties decision for No Deal and, as Labour like to abstain when there are votes to be won and lost, it could be very interesting.
 
richie_spur said:
You have to say it's a very clever negotiating strategy by the Government. If they don't like the deal we are offered, even if it is they who have negotiated it, and vote against it, we leave anyway on WTO terms. This is not a vote on whether to leave (we had that); it a straight choice for parliament between No Deal and the Negotiated Deal.

Davis can now say to Barnier that any deal (including the divorce settlement) must be acceptable by the whole of parliament as, if not, we all end up on WTO terms and the EU do not get a penny. It is then an all parties decision for No Deal and, as Labour like to abstain when there are votes to be won and lost, it could be very interesting.
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Yes it is probably quite cute for the Government. As they flounder around trying not to fall off the the ever narrowing tight rope. But it also signals the lack of mandate they have, and a concession. Brexit is not in Mays hands. It never has been really. The EU, and now the UK Parliament hold the cards. The more concessions are made, the more cracks appear. The debate certainly, and vote maybe, eventually have to cover 3 options: negotiated deal, WTO cliff, rescind article 50.
 
I get the feeling that there is a significant number of Tories who now actively want no deal, probably a few on the EU side of the negotiations too come to that. This concession is window dressing to keep rebel Tories onside but makes no difference to a no-deal agenda.
 
the dza said:
I get the feeling that there is a significant number of Tories who now actively want no deal, probably a few on the EU side of the negotiations too come to that. This concession is window dressing to keep rebel Tories onside but makes no difference to a no-deal agenda.
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One hopes so.

Tried to put on a bet today on Patel being back in the cabinet within 2 years, just like Gove.

The rest of us fcuk up and we are out but cabinet ministers just do a year or so then back to normal.
 
the dza said:
I get the feeling that there is a significant number of Tories who now actively want no deal, probably a few on the EU side of the negotiations too come to that. This concession is window dressing to keep rebel Tories onside but makes no difference to a no-deal agenda.
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It appears not to be working, but I suppose we will know more when the withdrawal bill and amendments get voted on.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...620206ef71bb50#block-5a0abf0dbe620206ef71bb50

Some Tories so angry over EU withdrawal bill they could rebel for first time, Soubry claims
Yesterday it emerged that the new Conservative chief whip, Julian Smith, had a rather tricky MPs with backbenchers unhappy about the EU withdrawal bill.

Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak)
Hearing Tory Chief Whip had tricky meeting with MPs this afternoon, and was left in no doubt about resistance to Withdrawal bill - Davis concession this afternoon doesn't seem to have shifted sentiment among Tory rebels
November 13, 2017

Anna Soubry, the former business minister and one of the leading Tory rebels on Brexit, told the BBC this morning that the meeting was “stormy” and that some of her colleagues were thinking of voting against the government for the first time because they were so angry about the bill. She said:

It was stormy because you have got people at that meeting who have never spoken out. The date going into the bill has really upset a lot of really top-quality backbench Conservative MPs.

These are people, a lot of them ex-ministers, highly respected, and they are genuinely cross about this. There were some people there who have never rebelled and they are now talking, for the first time ever, of rebelling.

Tory pro-Europeans are unhappy about the fact that the government’s offer to put the final Brexit deal in an act of parliament won’t in practice give MPs much leverage, because even if the bill does get amended, David Davis, the Brexit secretary, says it will probably be too late to negotiate the deal.

But Soubry said that what MPs were really angry about yesterday was the proposal, announced by Theresa May in a Telegraph article on Friday, to insert a clause into the bill saying the UK has to leave the EU on 29 March 2019. That would prevent the UK and the EU from being able to extend the article 50 process if the talks over-ran and extra time were needed.
 
I think most of the leave vote had their opinions hardened over a period of time longer than when a few Russian troll bots were pumping out memes. I would have thought the effect was negligible and not result altering. I could be wrong, but that's my take on it.
 
the dza said:
I think most of the leave vote had their opinions hardened over a period of time longer than when a few Russian troll bots were pumping out memes. I would have thought the effect was negligible and not result altering. I could be wrong, but that's my take on it.
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Say there was a large effect? Re-run or Not?

And I think you are wrong the about effects. cyber propaganda is a very powerful tool...
 
DTA said:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/world/europe/russia-brexit-twitter-facebook.html?_r=0&referer

Question for the Brexitiers. If Russia did influence the vote. Do you not think it' fair that we at least get another vote?
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How could Russia influence the vote?

We go to school halls across thousands of locations and tick boxes with pencils. Electoral interference is practically impossible in such a low tech system.

Propaganda on the other hand is used by all sides, and anyone who can't see through, as above - probably doesn't have the mental capacities to be voting
 
I'm actually all for a 3rd referendum. I would even set it in law. For the year 2057.

Europhiles had 41 years to make a stab of it after the first referendum. Europhobes now deserve the same chance
 
Take 10's of millions autobots all over social media saying anything for long enough to your average punter, and you have a huge problem.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
I'm actually all for a 3rd referendum. I would even set it in law. For the year 2057.

Europhiles had 41 years to make a stab of it after the first referendum. Europhobes now deserve the same chance
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Depends where the europhiles/phobes get their info from......propaganda is more like the x factor adverts these days.

Brexit might have been by a bigger margin or Corbyn might annihilate the tory vote next time? Oh he did that......;)
 
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The big issue with social media and democracy is the echo chamber/algorithm politics

No one engages with people they disagree with, because they only connect to people who have the same views as them

The anger about Brexit now is basically because London still can't believe the rest of the country isn't like them
 
Gutter Boy said:
Isn't that what social media is? An enormous database for the corporations to advertise to

Also, in my experience twitter is 80-90% remain bias. Just browse https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=#Brexit&src=tyah at anytime.
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I dont know who did what to who. China have spent trillions on these bots.......allegedly.
Twitter Facebook and the rest are the new political battlegrounds according to many.
I only use GG so I'm fairly safe......not sure about that @scaramanga geezer......though..
 
StephenH said:
I dont know who did what to who. China have spent trillions on these bots.......allegedly.
Twitter Facebook and the rest are the new political battlegrounds according to many.
I only use GG so I'm fairly safe......not sure about that @scaramanga geezer......though..
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It seems a bit of a waste of time to me. I don't think anyone has changed their mind about China over the past decade or so. Nice people, but a fairly typical authoritarian regime.

No amount of twitter posts can surely convince anyone that Tibet and Xinjiang aren't occupied countries.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The big issue with social media and democracy is the echo chamber/algorithm politics

No one engages with people they disagree with, because they only connect to people who have the same views as them

The anger about Brexit now is basically because London still can't believe the rest of the country isn't like them
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Echo chamber is quite accurate and one of the reasons why digital propaganda is so dangerous. You think it's your mates... or someone in your circle.. telling you these thing when in fact it's one of Putin's agents.

We actually have just scratched the surface of just how dangerous a phenomenon digital propaganda is in my view
 
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