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Paris

ISIS, Boko Harem, Al Qaeda, Al Shabaab... to name but a few - which of these are being supported and propped up Western Democracies?

Al Qaeda - grew out of the Mujahadeen forces who were financed and supported by the USA/UK in the Afghanistan war (to drive out the Russians)
ISIS - A new name for the random mix of militants who have been operating in the Middle East since the Syrian civil war and when previously called 'Syrian rebels', UK Prime Minister Cameron wanted the UK Parliament to support a campaign to arm them. It would have been OK to arm these violent 'Islamists' at the time if it helped to get rid of Syria's Assad (like it was OK to arm the Mujahadeen).

Boko Haram and Al-Shabaab take their inspiration from Al-Qaeda.

Shall I mention Saudi Arabia et al?
 
Al Qaeda - grew out of the Mujahadeen forces who were financed and supported by the USA/UK in the Afghanistan war (to drive out the Russians)
ISIS - A new name for the random mix of militants who have been operating in the Middle East since the Syrian civil war and when previously called 'Syrian rebels', UK Prime Minister Cameron wanted the UK Parliament to support a campaign to arm them. It would have been OK to arm these violent 'Islamists' at the time if it helped to get rid of Syria's Assad (like it was OK to arm the Mujahadeen).

Boko Haram and Al-Shabaab take their inspiration from Al-Qaeda.

Shall I mention Saudi Arabia et al?

You are in denial. This denial amongst many Muslims and blaming of the West for everything needs to stop. The problem will be solved without or without the help of the Muslim population but it would be easier with their help.
 
You are in denial. This denial amongst many Muslims and blaming of the West for everything needs to stop. The problem will be solved without or without the help of the Muslim population but it would be easier with their help.

It would also be MUCH MUCH easier if the West's double standards and real politik for Western interests stopped as well.
If you cannot see that Western Government's support, use or sometimes outright installation of Islamic Militias and despot Governments (like Saudi Arabia, Yemen in the present day, and Egypt, Libya and Iraq in previous times) then you are the one in denial as much as anyone else.

Most Muslims did/do not want the above regimes foisted on them and certainly do not want to suffer the local effects of militias able to run riot due to backing and support often received from Western sources.

Oh, and just to confirm I am NOT Muslim
 
There were other people in that film?

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You are in denial. This denial amongst many Muslims and blaming of the West for everything needs to stop. The problem will be solved without or without the help of the Muslim population but it would be easier with their help.

Dude this is not even an 'open secret' anymore when it comes to these forces and regimes either put in place by us/the U.S. Or supported to displace regimes that were/are currently in power in our political and financial interests. Islam/religion doesn't even come into it. Happy to provide sources tomorrow as I have an early start , so it's bedtime with Scara's Kylie gif for me right now.
 
Dude this is not even an 'open secret' anymore when it comes to these forces and regimes either put in place by us/the U.S. Or supported to displace regimes that were/are currently in power in our political and financial interests. Islam/religion doesn't even come into it. Happy to provide sources tomorrow as I have an early start , so it's bedtime with Scara's Kylie gif for me right now.

I never said it wasn't the case that Western Powers had not interfered with Worldwide - not just Middle Eastern - politics to suit their own end and has probably contributed to the rise in extremism in the same way the terms of the Versailles Treaty contributed to rise of the Nazi party, it doesn't necessarily follow that a World War in which 50 million were killed and an attempt to eradicate a race of people would occur any more than a number of Militant group that basically want to kill everyone not Muslim (and those Muslim enough) and spread mayhem and carnage around the world.

There are (and were) clearly more factors at play - and Militant Islam, like Nazism, has become a cultural phenomenon and a menace to the world.
 
I never said it wasn't the case that Western Powers had not interfered with Worldwide - not just Middle Eastern - politics to suit their own end and has probably contributed to the rise in extremism in the same way the terms of the Versailles Treaty contributed to rise of the Nazi party, it doesn't necessarily follow that a World War in which 50 million were killed and an attempt to eradicate a race of people would occur any more than a number of Militant group that basically want to kill everyone not Muslim (and those Muslim enough) and spread mayhem and carnage around the world.

There are (and were) clearly more factors at play - and Militant Islam, like Nazism, has become a cultural phenomenon and a menace to the world.

Ah ok. Thanks for clarifying.
 
Unfortunately, I'm sure there are at least as many (if not, more) who use their religion to the opposite effect.

To my knowledge there has been very little "badness" done in the name of atheism/humanism.

Yeah Stalin was a top guy.
 
Btw, are there any Charlie Hebdo magazine covers that are anti-Jewish?

Well, rather ironically (in terms of its claims of free speech) Charlie Hebdo were the subject of a criminal investigation due to claims of anti-semitism, following some controversial articles and cartoons. Off the top of my head I think the writer in question walked as a result...
 
With each of those religions, there's more than just the holy books, in Islam for example there is the hadiths - the alleged sayings and actions of the Mohammed - which date from around 200 years or so after Muhammed died.

Yes, there was an expert scholar on The Infinite Monkey Cage a month ago, saying how there were lots of blokes like Jesus at the time, all spouting rhetoric and trying to convince people to be their followers.

One of whom was a circle drawer, called Dave The Circle Drawer or whatever, and he would draw circles and get people to stand in them. It didn't really catch on, but was a brilliant way of summing up all that is stupid about religion. Somebody at some point was a convincing guy, managed to get some people to follow him and spread the word, gullible people started to believe the stories and a century or so later people realised they needed to write this stuff down or it would all get lost/garbled over time... :D
 
Well, rather ironically (in terms of its claims of free speech) Charlie Hebdo were the subject of a criminal investigation due to claims of anti-semitism, following some controversial articles and cartoons. Off the top of my head I think the writer in question walked as a result...


Hmmm....interesting. Thanks both for posting.

If Charlie Hebdo are going to ridicule religions they should do it equally imo (or at least be allowed to....)
 
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Je Suis Charlie, eh? :-k

It is a shame someone felt the need to alter the details and suggest he was a cartoonist. I was under the impression that he was a writer who had written a column. The very fact he was censured and went on trial as an anti-semite writing for the very same paper is damning enough. Alas someone thought to just give the story a tweak here or there to add a little extra gravitas.
 
It is a shame someone felt the need to alter the details and suggest he was a cartoonist. I was under the impression that he was a writer who had written a column. The very fact he was censured and went on trial as an anti-semite writing for the very same paper is damning enough. Alas someone thought to just give the story a tweak here or there to add a little extra gravitas.

In the general scheme of things, would it have made that much difference if the paper had written an anti-Islamic blasphemic column, as opposed to drawing anti-Islamic cartoons?
 
In the general scheme of things, would it have made that much difference if the paper had written an anti-Islamic blasphemic column, as opposed to drawing anti-Islamic cartoons?

I don't know. I'd suggest not though. It is just more symbolic that cartoonists were attacked. There are many more writers criticising Islam in the press all the time and they have not been honoured with a Fatwa. The depiction of their prophet has always been taboo. The reason being that a cartoon, or something visual translates and offends far more easily because it is universal. A column needs to be read, understood, perhaps even translated. Any image of the prophet is deeply haram regardless of content.
 
The thing with all of these organised religions is that to fully understand how absurd they are you need to look at their history. You need to understand how they came about, when they came about, try to get an understanding for the historic and political sphere in which they were created. Islam got to the party a little after everyone else but certainly didn't shy away from working at convincing people the world over that there 'brand' was the best one to follow. They utilised very similar methods to medieval Christianity, in that they spread the word and you followed or died. You can't create a concept like this and have people ask tricky questions or say no thanks. Note how in every instance it was down to man to do GHod's will. Funny that. Man was always happy to speak on GHod's behalf, to pass his message on.

Religion was about control and it always has been. It is about revenue generation. That is why religion is just another form of Government. What you see now are people desperate to maintain control. To try to step back in time because modernisation, freedom, liberty all lead to a waning of control and power. We do need the moral teaching that some religions were once about but we certainly don't need the indoctrination and brain washing of the various death cults. Religion was always about conquering. If you conquered the minds of men, you grew stronger, your armies swelled and therefore your chest was full of gold. It is no different today. Every one of these religious armies is paid. They are rewarded. They are allowed to act outside the law to do the bidding of their controllers. They are brainwashed into acting the way they do, they do so through fear. When the money dries up so does the fervour and desire to fight. In Afghanistan the ranks of those fighting, be it the Northern Alliance, The Taleban or even the West were doing so over control and money.

Look at how Islam began, look at what the ruler of the time was trying to achieve? It was a crusade to spread his idea throughout the World, certainly throughout the Middle East, Africa and Europe. it was done so by the sword, it was done by letting blood. Why? Well these others all had their own set of beliefs, most which predated Islam. Look at what the religious landscape looked like before Islam. It was pretty much the same as everywhere else. Someone always turned up though and said I'm the main man, don't worship those idols, it is all about me. To be taken seriously they needed power, they needed control. The very shrine that Islam holds most holy was scrawled with hundreds of differing deities long before the first ideas for Islam appeared on paper. The religion of the time looked very similar to every other religion. We also still have huge numbers of people in the World who are impoverished, uneducated who rely on goodwill to survive. In every one of these regions we see radical medieval Islam beating them with a stick to bring them under their 'protective' wing. If they stop fighting, they lose fear and control. If they stop fighting they'll struggle to recruit. If they rule by peace then their religion will only dwindle and be seen for what it is as people become truly enlightened through education and learning. Such a very sorry state of affairs.
 
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