alekaras
The ITK of IDK
That was a different Spurs "before that." You can't make these sort of comparisons.
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OMT ***Tottenham Hotspur v West Ham Dildo Club***
- Thread starter awesome dawson
- Start date
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
Don't you think Poch had the United and Real games in mind when he fielded the team he did? Do you even think he would have played anyone who wouldn't be able to make it through the next two games? Seriously, sometimes I wonder whether you guys realize that a manager has much more information at his disposal about the condition of players than the average fan on a football team's forum does.
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
Umm, because he's the manager and knows better than all of us put together when Edwards is going to be ready to feature in the team?
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Why not, though? Football remembers teams based on their accumulated history - which stretches out over a century or more for many, many clubs in the British Isles.
These are big timescales. If our present progress dies off tomorrow and we finish mid-table, our two years challenging for the league will be a blip not even worth remembering - and many of our own fans won't even bother remembering them 20, 25, or 30 years down the line.
A pot is permanent. 'Challenging' is ephemeral if you never cross the finish line. Worse, it can give you a negative reputation if all you do is challenge - see 'Neverkusen' for an example of this. But pots are permanent, and accumulating them over time provides both memorable, life-changing moments for the fans and a history worth remembering in football terms.
Our history has never been one of grinding out league titles. Never. We have two to our name in 135 years of competing, which tells its own story in that regard.
Our history has definitely been one of swashbuckling, no-holds barred cup performances, though. The cups defined us more than the league titles did - the first non-league team to win the FA Cup, the first British team to win a European trophy...and hell, even our title in '61 was made especially memorable by being part of the first double of the 20th century, which necessitated winning the FA Cup.
Many of our greatest moments came in the cups, not in the league competitions. And it was what football remembered us for, prior to the advent of the Premier League - we were known as the cup team, after all. Won the FA Cup a record 8 times, dazzled in the UEFA Cup twice, and played an attractive, individualistic style of football that shone best in the one-off nature of cup games over the long slog of a league season.
Then, we stopped winning cups and our records were overtaken. And football ceased to remember us as such.
Like I said, the cups matter deeply to the way football views us.
I'm open to being convinced otherwise on this, but so far I haven't been.
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Glenda's Legs
Les Ferdinand
I'm still annoyed at how we gave that lead away. But the difference between us and WH is that the result is season-defining for them. Not for us.
For WH, it either galvinises a bit of spirit that will (just) drag them out of the relegation area, or they get relegated and they have that win to sustain them (fans) for years to come.
For us? We dust ourselves down, hopefully learn that a 2 goal lead doesn't defend itself no matter how bad the opposition, and get on with challenging for the league and vying to qualify top from our CL group.
For WH, it either galvinises a bit of spirit that will (just) drag them out of the relegation area, or they get relegated and they have that win to sustain them (fans) for years to come.
For us? We dust ourselves down, hopefully learn that a 2 goal lead doesn't defend itself no matter how bad the opposition, and get on with challenging for the league and vying to qualify top from our CL group.
Legohamster
Cecil Poynton
Winning the Group is not a big deal anymore given the seeding system that was brought in last(?) year.
IF we are through by then we should play the stiffs.
Lemonade Money
Steffen Freund
Danny Rose it.
StephenH
David Ginola
Thought Wednesday sent out so many mixed messages.
Quite a strong team!
Poch denigrating the competition, which I understand but I see no need to go public with this.
When the wheels came off, Poch started throwing players on like the were the fire phalanx and it ‘did’ matter all of a sudden!
If Poch didn’t care about the ‘daft’ cup, which it is! Play some kids and give them a run out.
Muddled thinking.
Quite a strong team!
Poch denigrating the competition, which I understand but I see no need to go public with this.
When the wheels came off, Poch started throwing players on like the were the fire phalanx and it ‘did’ matter all of a sudden!
If Poch didn’t care about the ‘daft’ cup, which it is! Play some kids and give them a run out.
Muddled thinking.
Daisuk
Les Medley
Even though I never saw the team of '87 that finished third, I've heard plenty about them, and described by some to be the best team we've had in recent history up until the team we have now. The team we had under Juande Ramos won a cup, but they won't be remembered as a particularly great team, in my opinion. Keano and Berbatov were great together, and will be remembered from that campaign, but not many other players will be, in my opinion. Even less so the team that won the league cup in '99. Only Ginola will be remembered from that lot, and maybe Nielsen because he scored the winner in the final. That team was brick, and will only be remembered as brick, as we finished 10th or below several seasons in a row around that time. What did a league cup win do for the reputation of that team in hindsight? Not a damn thing, in my opinion. It was a brick team.
Not really an argument against us winning things - I'd frankly love it if we won anything, including the league cup - but I just don't agree with the notion that this team won't be remembered if we don't win anything. It's just not true. This is the greatest Tottenham team I've seen since I started following Spurs back in '91, and I will remember this team for as long as I live, regardless of whether or not we pick up any trophies.
Not really an argument against us winning things - I'd frankly love it if we won anything, including the league cup - but I just don't agree with the notion that this team won't be remembered if we don't win anything. It's just not true. This is the greatest Tottenham team I've seen since I started following Spurs back in '91, and I will remember this team for as long as I live, regardless of whether or not we pick up any trophies.
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
Personally in a drink and drug fulled haze. But then i hated Britpop as well.
Dark days.
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
Not going to say too much about that farce, no point really has most fans think winning this cup means nothing . Personally i think that is wrong but i guess that's you modern fan for you. I hope to GHod we win the CL or the Prem this season because if not i see no point in playing to win nothing.
As far as i am concerned we play sport to be winners and i see very little silverware in our cabinet.
As far as i am concerned we play sport to be winners and i see very little silverware in our cabinet.
Daisuk
Les Medley
Not disagreeing with that at all, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that we're also playing to keep us economically competitive, to keep being an attractive club to other players, as well as paying off that massive stadium we're building. It could be argued that in our current position, qualifying again for the Champions League, and all the economical benefits that entails, is more important than winning the league cup. But as I said, I don't really disagree with you, I'd also love us to win a cup, regardless of which (as long as it isn't the bloody Peace Cup or whatever, haha). If we can establish ourselves as a Champions League club going into our new stadium, there's arguably a better chance of us laying a good foundation to grow as a club in the coming years, than say we win the league cup and not qualify for the CL. Not saying winning one excludes the other, of course, but I guess those thoughts have been in the mind of the manager as he rotated the team. But you know this, of course, I'm just stating the obvious for whatever reason.
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
Not disagreeing with that at all, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that we're also playing to keep us economically competitive, to keep being an attractive club to other players, as well as paying off that massive stadium we're building. It could be argued that in our current position, qualifying again for the Champions League, and all the economical benefits that entails, is more important than winning the league cup. But as I said, I don't really disagree with you, I'd also love us to win a cup, regardless of which (as long as it isn't the bloody Peace Cup or whatever, haha). If we can establish ourselves as a Champions League club going into our new stadium, there's arguably a better chance of us laying a good foundation to grow as a club in the coming years, than say we win the league cup and not qualify for the CL. Not saying winning one excludes the other, of course, but I guess those thoughts have been in the mind of the manager as he rotated the team. But you know this, of course, I'm just stating the obvious for whatever reason.
I do agree with most of that mate i really do, but i think we are in a good position and have a squad that CAN compete in all trophys not just the ones that some fans think are worth something ( not saying you are one of them).
The problem we seem to have now ( started with the "rent a quote" years ) is that there seems to be this idea that some trophys are of no importance, that is ( imo) pathetic and after what Poch was supposed to have hinted it seems to be his as well. Now players seem to go out with the attitude that IF the manager/club is not bothered then why should we? so when things start to go wrong ( like the other night) then why?/should?/do they bother too much about it?. Players usually look for excuses ( like most folks do) when things do not go well and If the management seem to think little of certain games then maybe they do not care that much.
I have stayed away from our last the LC games ( given my ticket away, a lot of ST holders i travel with have as well) after all why should i be bothered to spend even more money on traveling/food etc when it seems that that the club seem to care little about winning.
StephenH
David Ginola
It was tough and I became quite disinterested in football when compared to today. Then I started taking my Son later in the decade and my involvement and interest grew.
I can't get over how unnecessary the defeat was.
Now United..........
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
So just because our history was one of cup triumphs does that mean that we should aspire just to that? We are at an inflection point right now, one which can see us being title contenders for many years to come, given the fact that our financial position will be much stronger and that we have an excellent manager who could stay with us for many many years. So to look at the past and say we should be emulating that, instead of looking forward, is very shortsighted indeed.
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
It's a long term plan, mate. We're building up to win the league and challenge in the CL in the near future. It's not going to happen in one year. If we want to be an elite team, these are the goals we have to set. And if focusing on a cup means derailing us from these goals, then we should absolutely treat the cups as we currently do.
Daisuk
Les Medley
I see your point, but at the same time, we were 2-0 up at half time yesterday, cruising, looked like a certain victory, but got stung for getting complacent. It's obviously going to be harder for the manager to change that situation around. He tried, brought on Eriksen and Dembele, but to no avail. Say Poch would be playing the best line-up from the start and the match would've gone to extra time, or we'd still lose, or someone important had gotten injured - people would criticise the fudge out of Poch's decision.
I thought we lined up a good enough team Wednesday, we cruised it in the first half, got complacent in the second, Poch didn't have the power to turn it around from the bench, although he tried, and we lost. It's a blip. A missed opportunity. We didn't try to lose of course, but Poch did indeed have the match tomorrow in his head (as he should have), as it's arguably the most of important of the two, in my opinion. We simply couldn't risk starting our best XI in an attempt to beat West Ham when we had United so close after. It was a sound decision, and it looked to pay off, but complacency kicked in, for whatever reason, and we lost. I find it tough to blame Poch for the complacency, I really do, the guy's a winner, he was clearly disappointed after the game, he didn't want to lose the game.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I don’t get why people have a problem with Poch’s comments, or not understand what he is saying.
All trophies are good. But he’s trying to change our mentality, and he is making the point that in the process of building this club, a PL or CL is much more important, because it is. Kane and everyone else are not going to stick around because we win the Carabao Cup. It’s just nonsense to assume it. We as fans would love it, I know I would, but Poch saying what he said does not make it any less likely to happen.
Wednesday night was complacency, pure and simple. Otherwise we’re saying that the players were so demotivated from Poch’s comments that they went out and stormed into a 2-0 half time lead? Maybe they then remembered those comments at half time, realised they didn’t have to try, and subsequently took their foot off the gas? Of course that isn’t what happened.
In reality, Poch is not going to let the players go out and give a half hearted performance in any game. It just doesn’t work like that. This is a guy that records every second of training, including when the players are entering the building or walking on to the pitch, because he wants to make sure the attitude is always spot on. He’s building a winning mentality, and that means competing every single week for the biggest prizes, not going round claiming we’ve done something because we’ve won everyone’s 3rd or 4th priority competition.
All trophies are good. But he’s trying to change our mentality, and he is making the point that in the process of building this club, a PL or CL is much more important, because it is. Kane and everyone else are not going to stick around because we win the Carabao Cup. It’s just nonsense to assume it. We as fans would love it, I know I would, but Poch saying what he said does not make it any less likely to happen.
Wednesday night was complacency, pure and simple. Otherwise we’re saying that the players were so demotivated from Poch’s comments that they went out and stormed into a 2-0 half time lead? Maybe they then remembered those comments at half time, realised they didn’t have to try, and subsequently took their foot off the gas? Of course that isn’t what happened.
In reality, Poch is not going to let the players go out and give a half hearted performance in any game. It just doesn’t work like that. This is a guy that records every second of training, including when the players are entering the building or walking on to the pitch, because he wants to make sure the attitude is always spot on. He’s building a winning mentality, and that means competing every single week for the biggest prizes, not going round claiming we’ve done something because we’ve won everyone’s 3rd or 4th priority competition.