OMT: Everton vs Mighty Spurs

[BrainOfLevy]

Ahaha ha we won't always be able to carry a passenger!! Everton are a poor team. Nothing about us making them look poor then? The team that got a point at City and that will finish at least 7th this year? They will beat top 6 teams this season. But of course, we had a passenger and Everton are barely Sunderland standard.

Just so we're clear, my Sanchez criticism above was a joke!!

 

[billyiddo]

We can all pick at stats or pick at the time an individual player made a bad pass and claim it's factually accurate, doesn't change the fact that you can tell when the tone of a post is going in unnecessarily hard on a specific player, and holding them to a standard others aren't having to live up to.

Sissoko has his traits. He has his positives. He has his things he needs to improve upon. But anyone that looked at that game yesterday with true objectivity would see he played his part like everyone else. He shouldn't need to play a 10/10 game for people to say 'yeah fair enough, he played well', without also following it up with 'and it was still BARELY an acceptable level of performance'. Let it go guys. He's improving. Why our fans have to pick escaped goats and pigeon hole certain players into boxes that they can never escape is beyond me.

He played a borderline good game afaic and were it any other player there wouldn't really be an issue with some thinking he had a poor game and others thinking he done ok - it was one of those games. He got into some good positions and done well at times but ultimately any time he had a chance to cause some damage he fluffed his lines - very much a mixed bag of a performance which gets rated differently by different posters based on how much weight they put on end product.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

He played a borderline good game afaic and were it any other player there wouldn't really be an issue with some thinking he had a poor game and others thinking he done ok - it was one of those games. He got into some good positions and done well at times but ultimately any time he had a chance to cause some damage he fluffed his lines - very much a mixed bag of a performance which gets rated differently by different posters based on how much weight they put on end product.

Yeah and that's a very nice and eloquent way of saying nothing much at all.

If he did well and most were able to say he did well without needing to ram home a point of 'and it was still BARELY acceptable' as if terrified that a player who plays for a club they are a fan of may end up improving and that they judged him too quickly, I wouldn't have an issue.

 

[billyiddo]

Yeah and that's a very nice and eloquent way of saying nothing much at all.

If he did well and most were able to say he did well without needing to ram home a point of 'and it was still BARELY acceptable' as if terrified that a player who plays for a club they are a fan of may end up improving and that they judged him too quickly, I wouldn't have an issue.

I think you're overplaying the attitude towards him somewhat, a couple of extreme opinions either side of a mostly average response - I think if there was a player ratings thread he'd score between 5-7 and that would be a fair reflection of his performance and it would follow that discussion of such a performance would vary the way it has.

A step in the right direction for him - if he continues to put in performances like that and improves his final ball/shooting then it will raise his game to the 6/7/8 level that you'd want from a reserve player

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think you're overplaying the attitude towards him somewhat - I think if there was a player ratings thread he'd score between 5-7 and that would be a fair reflection of his performance and it would follow that discussion of such a performance would vary the way it has.

Im not over playing it, I'm going against the people who need to add borderline insults and disparaging remarks against one of our players even when he has played well. I'm sure you're right, if there was a player rating thread he'd get 6-7, but it's not the bare fact that is the problem. It's a few people giving back handed or extremely minor compliments through gritted teeth and even when he has had a good game, finding a way to pick into his performance and talk about him in a frankly bit of a harsh way.

The great thing about our club is that for the most part, we're all in it together. Meaning team, fans, staff, board. But we've always had these players, like Jenas, like Sissoko, like Paulinho, where there is an absolute weird desire to join in with a groupthink about how funny it is to laugh at how poor they are. Flashy players we obviously love. Hard working strikers who can't buy a goal, we'll give them all the time in the world. But if you're a box to box midfielder that is a bit more physical than flashy, GHod help you.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Im not over playing it, I'm going against the people who need to add borderline insults and disparaging remarks against one of our players even when he has played well. I'm sure you're right, if there was a player rating thread he'd get 6-7, but it's not the bare fact that is the problem. It's a few people giving back handed or extremely minor compliments through gritted teeth and even when he has had a good game, finding a way to pick into his performance and talk about him in a frankly bit of a harsh way.

The great thing about our club is that for the most part, we're all in it together. Meaning team, fans, staff, board. But we've always had these players, like Jenas, like Sissoko, like Paulinho, where there is an absolute weird desire to join in with a groupthink about how funny it is to laugh at how poor they are. Flashy players we obviously love. Hard working strikers who can't buy a goal, we'll give them all the time in the world. But if you're a box to box midfielder that is a bit more physical than flashy, GHod help you.

Did he make any goal saving blocks, make any significant tackles, make any assists or score any goals? Well no he didn't and that's why I'm saying he was very average. He didn't impact on the result too much.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Yourself and Scara are clearly smart guys, but the level you are going to just to frame Sissoko's performance in the negative astounds me. The team being set up to cover for his weakness as if he's a youth team player making his debut. Judging him by the standards of finesse and creativity when that is blatantly not the type of player he has ever been. It's like saying Eriksen didn't do well because he didn't make powerful runs with the ball at pace down the touch line. Of course Eriksen also played well but so did Sissoko. They are different players with doffeeent characteristics.

Can I just say I thought Sanchez wasn't very good yesterday. I know this may be controversial and going against the established groupthink of the fan base but we clearly altered the formation to cover for his weaknesses yesterday. He needs two experienced players alongside him to play well. Some of his touches looked very nervous particularly early on and and he needed to use his pace to cover for his poor positioning on more than one occasion. He has an awkward style with the ball at his feet and I think he has a long way to go to improve.

Oh what's that? It's ok because he's a young debutant? Ahhhhh I see. Apologies for picking holes in his performance unnecessarily and not giving him the room to grow into his role. He deserves our support to give him the best chance to succeed.

Moussa Sissoko on the other hand? Get him out now! He was terrible last year which means he will always be terrible. I don't care if he's improving. It's his fault we spent 30M on him and even though our own squad is littered with players that took more than a year to show their best form, I want him gone. I just don't like him. He doesn't play in the style of my favourite players, and I thought he was bad last year so I don't care if he's improving, he's crap.

 

[Rorschach]

If you want to have a go at Sissoko this wasn't the game to do it. I don't think he is a great player and was surprised to see him start but he didn't let the team down yesterday. He was a 6/10 IMO.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Chaps.(and chapesses) - bit of a blatant 'I'm on holiday' post incoming, so apologies, but I am literally half way across Siberia now, very limited wi-fi and the odd dip into the site via roaming to keep up on things like the transfer window but otherwise I'm a bit out of touch with things. Can some kind soul give me a quick summary of how we played yesterday? Compared to Saudi Sportswashing Machine/Cheatski/Burnley games, and any new players who got a showing. (No need to comment on Sissoko, I've kinda got the drift from the last page!). Browsing back through the whole thread is not really feasible right now.
Spasiba!

 

[Rorschach]

Williams is brick, isn't he? The worst player on the pitch IMO.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Not hating on Dele at all BUT he gets away with a hell of a lot. During a game he is actually poor a lot of the time, his saving grace is that he gets goals which is a priceless thing in football. I find it hard to argue with a lot of football fans I've heard say he thinks he's better than he actually is. He is capable of the spectacular but more often than not messes things up and his demeanour also suggests that to be correct. Don't get me wrong I love the guy, but he's got a long way to go before he's at someone like Eriksens level for me....

Don't disagree with this. I think Dele does think he is better than he is and needs to focus on consistency and being affective for longer periods in games.
He has talent and time on his side though.

I wonder if this is a point of discussion with Poch? As it doesn't look like it at the moment.

 

[Baleforce]

Did he make any goal saving blocks, make any significant tackles, make any assists or score any goals? Well no he didn't and that's why I'm saying he was very average. He didn't impact on the result too much.

you can have an influence without interacting with the ball, what happens away from it is where games are won, closing passing lanes and denying time have value too

 

[milo]

Chaps.(and chapesses) - bit of a blatant 'I'm on holiday' post incoming, so apologies, but I am literally half way across Siberia now, very limited wi-fi and the odd dip into the site via roaming to keep up on things like the transfer window but otherwise I'm a bit out of touch with things. Can some kind soul give me a quick summary of how we played yesterday? Compared to Saudi Sportswashing Machine/Cheatski/Burnley games, and any new players who got a showing. (No need to comment on Sissoko, I've kinda got the drift from the last page!). Browsing back through the whole thread is not really feasible right now.
Spasiba!

Best performance of the season, it could easily have been 0 - 5. We made Everton look very ordinary. Sanchez slotted in very well but he will have harder days.

What are you doing in Siberia?

 

[billyiddo]

Im not over playing it, I'm going against the people who need to add borderline insults and disparaging remarks against one of our players even when he has played well. I'm sure you're right, if there was a player rating thread he'd get 6-7, but it's not the bare fact that is the problem. It's a few people giving back handed or extremely minor compliments through gritted teeth and even when he has had a good game, finding a way to pick into his performance and talk about him in a frankly bit of a harsh way.

The great thing about our club is that for the most part, we're all in it together. Meaning team, fans, staff, board. But we've always had these players, like Jenas, like Sissoko, like Paulinho, where there is an absolute weird desire to join in with a groupthink about how funny it is to laugh at how poor they are. Flashy players we obviously love. Hard working strikers who can't buy a goal, we'll give them all the time in the world. But if you're a box to box midfielder that is a bit more physical than flashy, GHod help you.

Doesn't do Wanyama any harm among the fan base nor did it players like Freund and Palacios so I think that particular point is somewhat forced as the fan base will support hardworking non flair players if they work hard and/or perform well - just like it'll criticise flair players who don't perfom eg Townsend/Lamela.

Regardless though Sissoko is a record signing and a year in to his time here has arrived at a point where a single 6/7 out of ten performance is a hot topic of conversation - says it all really.

And I say that as someone who is happy enough for him to be in the squad.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Did he make any goal saving blocks, make any significant tackles, make any assists or score any goals? Well no he didn't and that's why I'm saying he was very average. He didn't impact on the result too much.

No one is saying he was exceptional. The problem is a Sissoko 6-7/10 gets talked about like it is a 3 or a 4, where even if a small compliment is made it is doused with harsh remarks, nitpicking his performance to an extent that no other player has happen to them, and a determination to downplay anything good he does - we set up to cover for his weakness, he's a passenger we can't avoid to risk on the pitch etc.

When he's been great, I'd say. When he's been terrible, I'd say. But surely when he's been decent, we can say that too without bizarrely holding him to standards that no other play in the squad has to deal with, as if punishment for the fact that one of our players has set out to wrong us personally as fans. We get it, he had some absolute shockers last season, let's all point and laugh at him. Except, he's now doing ok, so can't we be happy with that without reminding everyone that he still isn't Christian Eriksen, because obviously he never will be?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Doesn't do Wanyama any harm among the fan base nor did it players like Freund and Palacios so I think that particular point is somewhat forced as the fan base will support hardworking non flair players if they work hard and/or perform well - just like it'll criticise flair players who don't perfom eg Townsend/Lamela.

Regardless though Sissoko is a record signing and a year in to his time here has arrived at a point where a single 6/7 out of ten performance is a hot topic of conversation - says it all really.

And I say that as someone who is happy enough for him to be in the squad.

You know as well as I do that Wanyama, Palacios and Freund are holding, defensive midfielders and can get by on hard work being the limit of their expectations. Jenas, Paulinho and Sissoko are all similar players with more forward running expectation and all have suffered from a section of our fan base picking at them in some weird quasi bully-acting campaign where nothing they can do will satisfy them. They don't fit a preconceived notion of what someone in their position should be doing, because those fans make their mind up on these players quickly, and that is that. It's probably occurred to none of these people that Sissoko is used to playing deeper on the pitch with space to run into, and even though he was one of the attacking 3 midfielders when playing for Saudi Sportswashing Machine, he would have started deeper on the pitch to counter attack. With us, he's always played further forward which has meant a new role effectively. Does any of these anti Sissoko types think about that? Is their any patience afforded to him by them? Is their heck. 'Haha, he's like a 9 year old because he went offside!'

And you must surely see it's a point of discussion because some people still have to be overly negative on him when it isn't warranted. I haven't seen anyone say Sissoko was an 8/10 or higher, merely that he's played well like the whole team did. And while a lot of players get credit for playing their part in a great performance, Sissoko is caveated until cows come home. That's why this is a point of conversation. The people favouring him are saying it how it is, and the people determined to prove their opinion on him correct are the ones least in touch with reality and determined to talk him down unjustly.

As for Lamela or Townsend, if they play well, they get the praise without weird caveats thrown in, and they get criticised when they deserve. There has been nothing like the level of sustained negativity towards those players in spite of decent performances.

 

[billyiddo]

I think you're splitting hairs now tbh mate - bottom line for me is he needs to putting in those kinds of performances as a minimum if he is to have a place in the squad long term - I see no reason why he can't be expected to do that but until he does start consistently playing at that level he will always have a minority of people giving him stick - same as with any player who underperfoms for a long time

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Williams is brick, isn't he? The worst player on the pitch IMO.

He is one of the most over rated players in the league, his positional play has always been poor and he's not very good in the air, lot of talk about him being a footballing centreback, but simply playing the ball across the field in your own half is hardly taxing and achieves little.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Best performance of the season, it could easily have been 0 - 5. We made Everton look very ordinary. Sanchez slotted in very well but he will have harder days.

What are you doing in Siberia?

Cheers Milo. Good to hear. I don't think any of our previous performances have been bad but with Chelsea and Burnley we ultimately failed to make our dominance count. I feel we've struggled against Everton in the past far more than we should, so good to see us come away with a clear win this time.

As for Siberia : taking the train (or more accurately, several trains) from Moscow to Vladivostok, with various stops along the way. Topping and tailing with Moscow and St Petersburg.
Great country, lovely people. Lots of trees. Seriously lots of trees.

Congrats on the new arrival btw.

 

[milo]

Cheers Milo. Good to hear. I don't think any of our previous performances have been bad but with Chelsea and Burnley we ultimately failed to make our dominance count. I feel we've struggled against Everton in the past far more than we should, so good to see us come away with a clear win this time.

As for Siberia : taking the train (or more accurately, several trains) from Moscow to Vladivostok, with various stops along the way. Topping and tailing with Moscow and St Petersburg.
Great country, lovely people. Lots of trees. Seriously lots of trees.

Congrats on the new arrival btw.

Cheers mate. Sounds wonderful