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Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked

BrainOfLevy said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1432018204696645632

“What we will try to achieve is very difficult, it’s to be perfect, so imagine how far we are from that.”

This guy has got something about him. My Wolves supporting boss said we’ll fall in love with him like Poch because he is a similarly inspirational figure, and I totally get it. He’s got a glint in his eye, he has fantastic charisma, and he’s just crazy enough that you can imagine setting lofty goals for the players, but them fully believing they can achieve what he says they can.
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“I am proud of the players because it’s them..” in contrast to “Same coach different players..” Will make a nice change to have the manager and players on the same side.
 
SpurMeUp said:
The Mic is bonding with Nunos beard :)

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I like the way he speaks, humble but driven. We are a long way from where he wants us to be but is giving the players the credit for working hard so far. Pleased to here him talking about repetition in training that will create habits to make us better in possession too. Hopefully Paratici can deliver a couple more incomings to help with the quality and options we are going to need for the rest of the season.
 
MKSpur said:
I like the way he speaks, humble but driven. We are a long way from where he wants us to be but is giving the players the credit for working hard so far. Pleased to here him talking about repetition in training that will create habits to make us better in possession too. Hopefully Paratici can deliver a couple more incomings to help with the quality and options we are going to need for the rest of the season.
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This. I'm growing to like the guy already - the thing that's Poch-like about him is that he's often far warmer with the fans and the club staff than he is with the journos, to whom he's basically pretty gruff.

The polar opposite of the last guy, who cared far more about his image with his media pals than the club he was managing.

NES seems to understand and value a relationship with the fans, and Poch did too. An attitude like that, coupled with honesty and humility, can go a very long way towards getting a damaged, fractured club pulling in one direction again.

He'll have bad results, and we will stumble this season - no doubt about it. But I think he'll win us over despite that. :)
 
DubaiSpur said:
This. I'm growing to like the guy already - the thing that's Poch-like about him is that he's often far warmer with the fans and the club staff than he is with the journos, to whom he's basically pretty gruff.

The polar opposite of the last guy, who cared far more about his image with his media pals than the club he was managing.

NES seems to understand and value a relationship with the fans, and Poch did too. An attitude like that, coupled with honesty and humility, can go a very long way towards getting a damaged, fractured club pulling in one direction again.

He'll have bad results, and we will stumble this season - no doubt about it. But I think he'll win us over despite that. :)
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He won me in the first week precisely because of that…his ability to organize us has also been excellent. He has, in what, 10 weeks?, managed to correct the massive air of imbalance and flimflam his predecessor shat all over us during his tenure. A miracle to do it so quickly…
 
thfcsteff said:
He won me in the first week precisely because of that…his ability to organize us has also been excellent. He has, in what, 10 weeks?, managed to correct the massive air of imbalance and flimflam his predecessor shat all over us during his tenure. A miracle to do it so quickly…
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Organization, motivation (every player committed) and his ability to put a system together even when we had huge gaps in capability (Kane out, no Lo Celso or Ndombele), the defense not looking like a complete disaster.

It sounds stupid/obvious but it really looks for the first time in a while, we seem a team that is coached (and to your point, achieved in less than 2 months)
 
Raziel said:
Organization, motivation (every player committed) and his ability to put a system together even when we had huge gaps in capability (Kane out, no Lo Celso or Ndombele), the defense not looking like a complete disaster.

It sounds stupid/obvious but it really looks for the first time in a while, we seem a team that is coached (and to your point, achieved in less than 2 months)
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Potentially what we are seeing, from organisation, motivation, clever use of resources, rebirth of players and plain old keeping a lid on things, could well serve as a massive indictment of the previous manager.
 
Raziel said:
Organization, motivation (every player committed) and his ability to put a system together even when we had huge gaps in capability (Kane out, no Lo Celso or Ndombele), the defense not looking like a complete disaster.

It sounds stupid/obvious but it really looks for the first time in a while, we seem a team that is coached (and to your point, achieved in less than 2 months)
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I'm intrigued by this last line. I probably agree that we do look like we are actually being coached now...however, weren't you defending Jose saying he had a plan/some coaching effect when many could see that there was near zero coaching going on??

Can you delve into in more detail what you're so far seeing from NES that you weren't seeing from Jose (even though you vehemently defending whatever tactics/coaching there was until the end)?
 
glorygloryeze said:
I'm intrigued by this last line. I probably agree that we do look like we are actually being coached now...however, weren't you defending Jose saying he had a plan/some coaching effect when many could see that there was near zero coaching going on??

Can you delve into in more detail what you're so far seeing from NES that you weren't seeing from Jose (even though you vehemently defending whatever tactics/coaching there was until the end)?
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I think every coach/manager tries to implement some level of tactics/system, simplest example is if a team plays a formation, you can look across the pitch and see your "lines" of players, e.g. 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, etc. To say no/zero coaching is happening is a little OTT, you might disagree on the focus (e.g. not enough on fitness) but we can probably all agree it isn't like they were at the pub the three days before.

You could look at the pass maps of "good" games with Jose and it was clear what he was trying to do (regardless of if you agreed), it just didn't succeed often enough and he seemingly didn't have enough faith/patience that it would (Lucas, Lamela, Lo Celso all played the forward CM role well then would be changed, the CBs were constantly revolving)

When I compare to Nuno, the consistency in player selection is obvious, the fitness and physicality training (very obvious from his training sessions a lot of focus of battling for the ball with your opponent on you), but I see a few things that distinguish Nuno

- The balance of attack/defence so far is better, we do play counter/transition, but the team sits higher up the pitch and the attackers stay high. The thing where Jose's system broke is we gave the opponent too much time, possession and space, and even the low level PL players given time and space can hurt you.
- There is less "headless chicken" playing, there are more out balls, more options/runners, expected patterns if you will.
- The last one (and I haven't figured it out exactly) is something that he is doing better than Jose & Poch, the system is compensating for individual weaknesses/mistakes, so often in the last 2-3 years we would actually play a decent game and then one or two individual mistakes would lose it for us, under Nuno it isn't that Dier/Sanchez/Dele/Lucas/Reguilon/Tanganga haven't made mistakes, its the fact that there was cover, that the system wasn't relying on players to be perfect.

The last piece is like when you see a lower level team defend and you know their players aren't as good but somehow by knowing their roles, anticipating errors they make way more difficult that they should (e.g. Ben White looked a better defender last year than this, Dier/Sanchez would walk on most mid to lower level PL teams defense but somehow for two years they were worse than those players)
 
Raziel said:
I think every coach/manager tries to implement some level of tactics/system, simplest example is if a team plays a formation, you can look across the pitch and see your "lines" of players, e.g. 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, etc. To say no/zero coaching is happening is a little OTT, you might disagree on the focus (e.g. not enough on fitness) but we can probably all agree it isn't like they were at the pub the three days before.

You could look at the pass maps of "good" games with Jose and it was clear what he was trying to do (regardless of if you agreed), it just didn't succeed often enough and he seemingly didn't have enough faith/patience that it would (Lucas, Lamela, Lo Celso all played the forward CM role well then would be changed, the CBs were constantly revolving)

When I compare to Nuno, the consistency in player selection is obvious, the fitness and physicality training (very obvious from his training sessions a lot of focus of battling for the ball with your opponent on you), but I see a few things that distinguish Nuno

- The balance of attack/defence so far is better, we do play counter/transition, but the team sits higher up the pitch and the attackers stay high. The thing where Jose's system broke is we gave the opponent too much time, possession and space, and even the low level PL players given time and space can hurt you.
- There is less "headless chicken" playing, there are more out balls, more options/runners, expected patterns if you will.
- The last one (and I haven't figured it out exactly) is something that he is doing better than Jose & Poch, the system is compensating for individual weaknesses/mistakes, so often in the last 2-3 years we would actually play a decent game and then one or two individual mistakes would lose it for us, under Nuno it isn't that Dier/Sanchez/Dele/Lucas/Reguilon/Tanganga haven't made mistakes, its the fact that there was cover, that the system wasn't relying on players to be perfect.

The last piece is like when you see a lower level team defend and you know their players aren't as good but somehow by knowing their roles, anticipating errors they make way more difficult that they should (e.g. Ben White looked a better defender last year than this, Dier/Sanchez would walk on most mid to lower level PL teams defense but somehow for two years they were worse than those players)
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Very good post.

We do rely on, if not perfection, at least real consistency in some key areas.

-Full backs (Tanganga and Reguilon) have to really consistently come out on top one vs one defensively.

-Wider central midfielders (Hojbjerg and Alli) have to get their defensive movement/positioning, aggression and work rate spot on really consistently.

The good news is that it's not the centre backs having to do that, so there is cover when we get things wrong as you point out. But we have seen some really good performances from Dier and Sanchez too. A couple mistakes that got punished could have completely changed the perception of the system and players though. Still a very small sample size and we've been clinical, hopefully we can have the same positive conversation about the system in a few months.
 
Raziel said:
I think every coach/manager tries to implement some level of tactics/system, simplest example is if a team plays a formation, you can look across the pitch and see your "lines" of players, e.g. 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, etc. To say no/zero coaching is happening is a little OTT, you might disagree on the focus (e.g. not enough on fitness) but we can probably all agree it isn't like they were at the pub the three days before.

You could look at the pass maps of "good" games with Jose and it was clear what he was trying to do (regardless of if you agreed), it just didn't succeed often enough and he seemingly didn't have enough faith/patience that it would (Lucas, Lamela, Lo Celso all played the forward CM role well then would be changed, the CBs were constantly revolving)

When I compare to Nuno, the consistency in player selection is obvious, the fitness and physicality training (very obvious from his training sessions a lot of focus of battling for the ball with your opponent on you), but I see a few things that distinguish Nuno

- The balance of attack/defence so far is better, we do play counter/transition, but the team sits higher up the pitch and the attackers stay high. The thing where Jose's system broke is we gave the opponent too much time, possession and space, and even the low level PL players given time and space can hurt you.
- There is less "headless chicken" playing, there are more out balls, more options/runners, expected patterns if you will.
- The last one (and I haven't figured it out exactly) is something that he is doing better than Jose & Poch, the system is compensating for individual weaknesses/mistakes, so often in the last 2-3 years we would actually play a decent game and then one or two individual mistakes would lose it for us, under Nuno it isn't that Dier/Sanchez/Dele/Lucas/Reguilon/Tanganga haven't made mistakes, its the fact that there was cover, that the system wasn't relying on players to be perfect.

The last piece is like when you see a lower level team defend and you know their players aren't as good but somehow by knowing their roles, anticipating errors they make way more difficult that they should (e.g. Ben White looked a better defender last year than this, Dier/Sanchez would walk on most mid to lower level PL teams defense but somehow for two years they were worse than those players)
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Thanks. Appreciate the detailed reply.

So far how do you see the patterns of attacking play going forward under NES compared to the average/typical methods seen under Jose and Pochettino?
Do you think there is more of an emphasis on targeted attacking (i.e. looking for particular types of chances) or more about numbers of chances (regardless of how 'good' they are or not)?
 
Raziel said:
I think every coach/manager tries to implement some level of tactics/system, simplest example is if a team plays a formation, you can look across the pitch and see your "lines" of players, e.g. 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, etc. To say no/zero coaching is happening is a little OTT, you might disagree on the focus (e.g. not enough on fitness) but we can probably all agree it isn't like they were at the pub the three days before.

You could look at the pass maps of "good" games with Jose and it was clear what he was trying to do (regardless of if you agreed), it just didn't succeed often enough and he seemingly didn't have enough faith/patience that it would (Lucas, Lamela, Lo Celso all played the forward CM role well then would be changed, the CBs were constantly revolving)

When I compare to Nuno, the consistency in player selection is obvious, the fitness and physicality training (very obvious from his training sessions a lot of focus of battling for the ball with your opponent on you), but I see a few things that distinguish Nuno

- The balance of attack/defence so far is better, we do play counter/transition, but the team sits higher up the pitch and the attackers stay high. The thing where Jose's system broke is we gave the opponent too much time, possession and space, and even the low level PL players given time and space can hurt you.
- There is less "headless chicken" playing, there are more out balls, more options/runners, expected patterns if you will.
- The last one (and I haven't figured it out exactly) is something that he is doing better than Jose & Poch, the system is compensating for individual weaknesses/mistakes, so often in the last 2-3 years we would actually play a decent game and then one or two individual mistakes would lose it for us, under Nuno it isn't that Dier/Sanchez/Dele/Lucas/Reguilon/Tanganga haven't made mistakes, its the fact that there was cover, that the system wasn't relying on players to be perfect.

The last piece is like when you see a lower level team defend and you know their players aren't as good but somehow by knowing their roles, anticipating errors they make way more difficult that they should (e.g. Ben White looked a better defender last year than this, Dier/Sanchez would walk on most mid to lower level PL teams defense but somehow for two years they were worse than those players)
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Good post.

I'd add, what goes on with players between the ears is massive.

Formed by the, manager to player and manager to group, relationship/dynamic, call it what you will.

When you are trying to achieve a family feel, a greater than the sum of its parts collective, dinosaur psychology doesn't work. It just instills fear, worry and a fixed mindset. Some players are ok with it BUT it doesn't take many for it to be toxic, and even the ones not being picked on can not like it.

Nuno is a good man. He'll have his demands, but he's fair and treats everyone equal and as he finds them. Most people will identify with that and respond in kind. He won't chastise you, belittle you or put fear into your play. That's debilitating. You can't underestimate being released from that.

If he gets a tune out of Sanchez Dier Dele Bergwijn, even Doherty then chapeau to the man.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Good post.

I'd add, what goes on with players between the ears is massive.

Formed by the, manager to player and manager to group, relationship/dynamic, call it what you will.

When you are trying to achieve a family feel, a greater than the sum of its parts collective, dinosaur psychology doesn't work. It just instills fear, worry and a fixed mindset. Some players are ok with it BUT it doesn't take many for it to be toxic, and even the ones not being picked on can not like it.

Nuno is a good man. He'll have his demands, but he's fair and treats everyone equal and as he finds them. Most people will identify with that and respond in kind. He won't chastise you, belittle you or put fear into your play. That's debilitating. You can't underestimate being released from that.

If he gets a tune out of Sanchez Dier Dele Bergwijn, even Doherty then chapeau to the man.
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I agree, but I also think it's worth pointing out that we did start quite well under Mourinho, and started last season well in terms of results and seemingly mentality/attitude.

Keeping up the positive stuff that goes on in players heads seems harder than getting it right at first. Nuno was given a really difficult situation to start with, all kinds of kudos for doing as well as he has. But what happens over a longer time is the real test.
 
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