No Spine

[Alex]

My greatest worry is that without King, Kaboul (inj), Modric, Parker (inj), Van Der Vaart and, pretty much, Adebayor (inj) that the whole exciting spine of our team from the past 1/2 years has just been wiped out and not replaced.

Let's be honest our first XI and our squad in general isn't as good as it was last year. We're doing a Liverpool really. Selling brilliant players, bringing in average ones and losing the remaining key players to injury. Lloris, Vertonghen and Dembele have done well to replace them but those names above are a HUGE loss to any team.

As much as we should never have lost a 13 point lead over Arsenal and some can say that the England stuff was unforgivable... it pains me to see us achieve so much over the past few years, to get to some dizzying heights, to be fighting for the premiership title for a few months and now, barely a few months later, we can just about string a pass together between Dempsey, Sigurdsson and Huddlestone.

Why are we suddenly in this development and reconstruction period when it wasn't necessary?! We were going places. It really upsets me that in 5 months we have undone all of our hard work of the past 3 or 4 years.

What do you think? Am I being overly critical because of the pain of the Wigan defeat or is there a method to my madness?

 

[Roy1983]

Who was the other newbie who kept starting random new threads?!??

You are spot on here btw.

 

[Spursalot]

My greatest worry is that without King, Kaboul (inj), Modric, Parker (inj), Van Der Vaart and, pretty much, Adebayor (inj) that the whole exciting spine of our team from the past 1/2 years has just been wiped out and not replaced.

Let's be honest our first XI and our squad in general isn't as good as it was last year. We're doing a Liverpool really. Selling brilliant players, bringing in average ones and losing the remaining key players to injury. Lloris, Vertonghen and Dembele have done well to replace them but those names above are a HUGE loss to any team.

As much as we should never have lost a 13 point lead over Arsenal and some can say that the England stuff was unforgivable... it pains me to see us achieve so much over the past few years, to get to some dizzying heights, to be fighting for the premiership title for a few months and now, barely a few months later, we can just about string a pass together between Dempsey, Sigurdsson and Huddlestone.

Why are we suddenly in this development and reconstruction period when it wasn't necessary?! We were going places. It really upsets me that in 5 months we have undone all of our hard work of the past 3 or 4 years.

What do you think? Am I being overly critical because of the pain of the Wigan defeat or is there a method to my madness?

You kind of answer your own question. Out of the six players of our spine, one retired, two left (for whichever reasons you want to believe), and three are injured.

 

[johnola]

My greatest worry is that without King, Kaboul (inj), Modric, Parker (inj), Van Der Vaart and, pretty much, Adebayor (inj) that the whole exciting spine of our team from the past 1/2 years has just been wiped out and not replaced.

Let's be honest our first XI and our squad in general isn't as good as it was last year. We're doing a Liverpool really. Selling brilliant players, bringing in average ones and losing the remaining key players to injury. Lloris, Vertonghen and Dembele have done well to replace them but those names above are a HUGE loss to any team.

As much as we should never have lost a 13 point lead over Arsenal and some can say that the England stuff was unforgivable... it pains me to see us achieve so much over the past few years, to get to some dizzying heights, to be fighting for the premiership title for a few months and now, barely a few months later, we can just about string a pass together between Dempsey, Sigurdsson and Huddlestone.

Why are we suddenly in this development and reconstruction period when it wasn't necessary?! We were going places. It really upsets me that in 5 months we have undone all of our hard work of the past 3 or 4 years.

What do you think? Am I being overly critical because of the pain of the Wigan defeat or is there a method to my madness?

How do you replace the injured? Ledley was a kingpin but I doubt the others who left had the character to lead.

I believe in Sandro, Dembele, Vertonghen and Caulker, but given me a pair up front.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Lloris -Verts/Kaboul - Sandro/Dembele - Ade is a pretty decent spine tbh.

Just a shame that 3 of that 6 have missed all season and another 2 are out now as well.

 

[mudshark]

It's a funny old game.

I feel your pain, btw.

 

[billyiddo]

Lloris
Vertonghen Kaboul
Sandro Dembele
Adebayor


the spine of our team is the least of our worries

 

[King of Norway]

I agree with the original poster here. We have weakened the team and the squad unnecessarily over the last calender year. I can see that it was hard to keep hold of Modric. What happened with Rafa we simply don't know, but the fact is that we have a significatly weaker squad than we had 12 months ago. We have sold great players, and have replaced them with inferior ones. It's not easy to get replace Modric, by all means, and I think Dembele is very good player, but he's not Luka Modric. He doesn't control games liek Luka Modric did. He is not a playmaker like Luka Modric. He adds certains other qualities. The ability to go past a man on the ball, a bit more strength in the physical battles, but all in all we have lost more than we gain in my opinion.

When it coems to Rafa, we are not even close to replacing him. Dempsey and Sigurdsson are not at the same leve by any means. I said on another thread that it is not just the footballign abilities of Luka and Rafa we lack now, but also the way they lead by example on the pitch. You could count on them to take charge of the game, to take responsibilty out there. We lack players like that at the moment. Sandro is a good ballwinner, Dembele is a skillful player, but they are not dominant when we want to create something, although Dembele perhaps has the potential to become such a player.

Injuries are obviously difficult to do anythign about, but it also worth mentioning that we don't have the same strength in depth as we had a year ago. We have sold several good squad players, players who who weren't always in the team, but who were decent to good Premiership players. Looking at our squad now, it is paper thin, especially in certain areas, something that obviously leaves us more vulnerable to injuries. Just look at our bench agaisnt Wigan. I personally don't think we have the squad to finish in the top four this season, but on the other hand, Arsenal are also weaker than in a long time, and Liverpool is a mess, and that might just give us a chance after all.

 

[billyiddo]

KoN - with VdV i think it's a case that we aren't looking to replace him like for like and will be going for a new first team central midfielder to play alongside Dembele and Sandro but not as advanced as we saw with Rafa. Moutinho is the obvious example and depending on where your opinion lies on how close we were to signing him, it is an example of the type of player we are looking to bring in. potentially a starting line up of : Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen, Kaboul, Ekotto, Sandro, Dembele, Moutinho, Lennon, Bale, Adebayor - is not so far away from the quality line up we had last year and would be a first team id be quite excited to see have a run of games together and see what it can do.

id also argue that last year our SQUAD wasn't all that strong at all once you looked outside of the starting XI, the manager obviously wasn't happy with it what with the lack of rotation. if we bring in a new CM and a like for like replacement for Adebayor in January id be of the opinion that we would probably have more depth than last season, if also a slightly weaker first team

 

[braineclipse]

I agree with the original poster here. We have weakened the team and the squad unnecessarily over the last calender year. I can see that it was hard to keep hold of Modric. What happened with Rafa we simply don't know, but the fact is that we have a significatly weaker squad than we had 12 months ago. We have sold great players, and have replaced them with inferior ones. It's not easy to get replace Modric, by all means, and I think Dembele is very good player, but he's not Luka Modric. He doesn't control games liek Luka Modric did. He is not a playmaker like Luka Modric. He adds certains other qualities. The ability to go past a man on the ball, a bit more strength in the physical battles, but all in all we have lost more than we gain in my opinion.

When it coems to Rafa, we are not even close to replacing him. Dempsey and Sigurdsson are not at the same leve by any means. I said on another thread that it is not just the footballign abilities of Luka and Rafa we lack now, but also the way they lead by example on the pitch. You could count on them to take charge of the game, to take responsibilty out there. We lack players like that at the moment. Sandro is a good ballwinner, Dembele is a skillful player, but they are not dominant when we want to create something, although Dembele perhaps has the potential to become such a player.

Injuries are obviously difficult to do anythign about, but it also worth mentioning that we don't have the same strength in depth as we had a year ago. We have sold several good squad players, players who who weren't always in the team, but who were decent to good Premiership players. Looking at our squad now, it is paper thin, especially in certain areas, something that obviously leaves us more vulnerable to injuries. Just look at our bench agaisnt Wigan. I personally don't think we have the squad to finish in the top four this season, but on the other hand, Arsenal are also weaker than in a long time, and Liverpool is a mess, and that might just give us a chance after all.

I rarely disagree with you, but here I do somewhat.

1. The only first team player let go where we had something of a choice was VdV. Keeping hold of Modric looked close to impossible.

2. We have pretty good strength in depth with the exception of cover/competition for Dembele as the creative central midfielder. The exact same problem we had last season actually with no one to replace Modric.

For the two forward/striker/attacking midfield positions we have 4 first teamers, Ade, Defoe, Sig and Dempsey.
At the back we have at least as many options with Vertonghen and Caulker replacing the consistently injured King and backup solution that was Nelsen. Naughton coming in for Rose gives us someone that can cover both full back positions compared to Rose who only covered one and Vertonghen has shown himself to be a more than capable left back.
The only position I would accept that we have slightly less cover would be the wing positions, Kranjcar and Pienaar haven't really been replaced, although Dempsey can do a job and we have kept Townsend and Falque in the squad to give us some options. Kranjcar rarely performed after Bale emerged and Pienaar just didn't work out so I fail to see how we're much weaker.

We haven't found someone as good as VdV, but that's not a question of squad depth, just ability of the first choice players. I'm not really in the mood for the VdV debate all over again, but there were some decent reasons to let him go I think.

From where I'm sitting it's more been an issue of having a few more injuries this season. Kaboul looked better than Dawson last season, but so far this season it's been Kaboul that's been injured instead of Daws. Ekotto has been out for as long already as he was all of last season. Ade has been out for 8 out of 10 games or something so far while he was always available last season. Parker is out, although that's comparable to Sandro missing most of last season. Hudd has been available, but is still on his way back from injury. The injury to Dembele really set us back and missing him seems to impact us about as much as the very few games we missed Modric last season. Hopefully Dembele will be back soon.

 

[Pirate55]

I rarely disagree with you, but here I do somewhat.

1. The only first team player let go where we had something of a choice was VdV. Keeping hold of Modric looked close to impossible.

2. We have pretty good strength in depth with the exception of cover/competition for Dembele as the creative central midfielder. The exact same problem we had last season actually with no one to replace Modric.

For the two forward/striker/attacking midfield positions we have 4 first teamers, Ade, Defoe, Sig and Dempsey.
At the back we have at least as many options with Vertonghen and Caulker replacing the consistently injured King and backup solution that was Nelsen. Naughton coming in for Rose gives us someone that can cover both full back positions compared to Rose who only covered one and Vertonghen has shown himself to be a more than capable left back.
The only position I would accept that we have slightly less cover would be the wing positions, Kranjcar and Pienaar haven't really been replaced, although Dempsey can do a job and we have kept Townsend and Falque in the squad to give us some options. Kranjcar rarely performed after Bale emerged and Pienaar just didn't work out so I fail to see how we're much weaker.

We haven't found someone as good as VdV, but that's not a question of squad depth, just ability of the first choice players. I'm not really in the mood for the VdV debate all over again, but there were some decent reasons to let him go I think.

From where I'm sitting it's more been an issue of having a few more injuries this season. Kaboul looked better than Dawson last season, but so far this season it's been Kaboul that's been injured instead of Daws. Ekotto has been out for as long already as he was all of last season. Ade has been out for 8 out of 10 games or something so far while he was always available last season. Parker is out, although that's comparable to Sandro missing most of last season. Hudd has been available, but is still on his way back from injury. The injury to Dembele really set us back and missing him seems to impact us about as much as the very few games we missed Modric last season. Hopefully Dembele will be back soon.

I really dont think it is necessarily the players. While some quality players have gone, some good players have come in. Probably a small net loss overall. However, the system we are using is the main issue imo. Especially at home, two DMs mean we set up to counterattack. When other teams dont come out and play, the game is often turgid (WBA, Norwich, QPR, Lazio, Wigan). This is demonstrated by the fact we have only scored 6 goals in 6 home games this season. A really poor return.

The set up of the team, withdrawing all 11 men back to defend corners and free kicks and the negative substitutions ceding the initiative are all more important to our bricky home showing than the players we have put out. Also the lack of imagination we continue to show from corners and free-kicks....

 

[indianspur]

most teams have injuries and just have to get on with it

as has been said, we couldnt control losing King, Modric and VDV and the reasons why. We still have plenty of good players and certainly enough to play more exiting football at home, and enough to be able to beat Wigan, Norwich and West Brom

 

[braineclipse]

I really dont think it is necessarily the players. While some quality players have gone, some good players have come in. Probably a small net loss overall. However, the system we are using is the main issue imo. Especially at home, two DMs mean we set up to counterattack. When other teams dont come out and play, the game is often turgid (WBA, Norwich, QPR, Lazio, Wigan). This is demonstrated by the fact we have only scored 6 goals in 6 home games this season. A really poor return.

The set up of the team, withdrawing all 11 men back to defend corners and free kicks and the negative substitutions ceding the initiative are all more important to our bricky home showing than the players we have put out. Also the lack of imagination we continue to show from corners and free-kicks....

The (very few) games last season where Modric was injured we played Sandro and Parker most of the time from what I can remember. That's two defensive midfielders in the side, both of them more obviously defending than Hudd is. It didn't work particularly well.

Now, when we've had Dembele injured we've played Sandro and Hudd.

Both are quite similar, we don't have cover for that Dembele/Modric role, just that last season Modric very rarely got injured while this season we unfortunately lost Dembele and so far have been unable to compensate.

 

[braineclipse]

most teams have injuries and just have to get on with it

as has been said, we couldnt control losing King, Modric and VDV and the reasons why. We still have plenty of good players and certainly enough to play more exiting football at home, and enough to be able to beat Wigan, Norwich and West Brom

Yes, they have to get on with it like we do, but most of the time they are weaker for it when key players are missing.

Manu weren't weaker last season because of the injuries to Vidic and Fletcher? Remember Mancini's "there's only one Yaya" comment?

I think it's a valid explanation even though the management and club obviously have to get on with doing the best they can and try to build a squad that can cope with those injuries as well as possible.

 

[Mumorn]

I think teams have a set up though. It's like when Barcelona lose Xavi or Iniesta, someone is there to slot in and play almost the exact same pass and move football. If Arsenal for example play some subs, they still know how to play the pass and move game, Man Utd are the same, they could field that young Nick Powell in central midfield and you wouldn't even notice. All the top teams have a set up from youth level to the first team so they know what they are stepping into.

Here at Spurs it's like we just buy players and play them. They don't actually have some sort of team set up here for some reason. I remember when Redknapp played some reserves in the Carling Cup and Europa League and they all looked like stranegrs who had just been put in a starting eleven and didn't really know how to play. Baffles me.

 

[billyiddo]

i don't think a club in our position (outside of the CL) can lose 3 of our best players, players that we'd call real CL quality and expect to replace them all in one window (quality wise) and not feel their loss in the opening part of the following season. It's just an unrealistic expectation and using it as critique of the new regime is harshly unfair.

the fact we have actually managed to replace King with Vertonghen and Modric with Dembele in one window is actually fantastic and something we should be applauding - not moaning because we didn't complete the set (which we actually came pretty close to doing)

Here at Spurs it's like we just buy players and play them. They don't actually have some sort of team set up here for some reason. I remember when Redknapp played some reserves in the Carling Cup and Europa League and they all looked like stranegrs who had just been put in a starting eleven and didn't really know how to play. Baffles me.

think we will start to see that change over the next season or two, If AVB isn't hounded out before then

 

[braineclipse]

I think teams have a set up though. It's like when Barcelona lose Xavi or Iniesta, someone is there to slot in and play almost the exact same pass and move football. If Arsenal for example play some subs, they still know how to play the pass and move game, Man Utd are the same, they could field that young Nick Powell in central midfield and you wouldn't even notice. All the top teams have a set up from youth level to the first team so they know what they are stepping into.

Here at Spurs it's like we just buy players and play them. They don't actually have some sort of team set up here for some reason. I remember when Redknapp played some reserves in the Carling Cup and Europa League and they all looked like stranegrs who had just been put in a starting eleven and didn't really know how to play. Baffles me.

Thank you

I have made a similar point about Arsenal in the past, the point is even more obvious when you talk about Barca.

From where I'm sitting it seems that AVB is trying to do something similar here, bring in players that can function in a system and that all work hard, all can run a lot and also have at least a certain level of technical ability.

This compared to buying VdV, then figuring out how to make the system fit him, or buying Keane when we already have Defoe and know that they don't work as a partnership. There are more examples.

The transition into becoming a team with such a system isn't necessarily going to be painless, one of the reasons AVB should be given plenty of time.

 

[Mumorn]

I hope that AVB can implement his system. I think it will be harder for him due to the fact that players like Lennon, Bale, Defoe, Huddlestone etc. have been here under 4 different managers now who all have had different systems. I do think the likes of Lennon and Bale though are good enough footballers and good at one touch passing and movement and they will be main stays. At the moment though I don't see it, we are 10 games into the season and I do not see any sort of style from our team, no one touch passing, hardly any movement after a pass has been made etc. It is quite depressing.

 

[Rossi22]

We have a strong spine, we have a very strong first 11. Unfortunately, injuries and a couple of questionable selections are holding us back. In a perfect world where neither of those exist, then I think we have the 4th best side in the league.

 

[Pirate55]

I hope that AVB can implement his system. I think it will be harder for him due to the fact that players like Lennon, Bale, Defoe, Huddlestone etc. have been here under 4 different managers now who all have had different systems. I do think the likes of Lennon and Bale though are good enough footballers and good at one touch passing and movement and they will be main stays. At the moment though I don't see it, we are 10 games into the season and I do not see any sort of style from our team, no one touch passing, hardly any movement after a pass has been made etc. It is quite depressing.[/QUOTE]

My worries too. Thought by now we would at the very least begin to see a style of play that is come - even in fits and starts. The really depressing thing is that there seems only to be a negative style that is quite anathema to what Spurs fans want to see. I really really hope I am wrong.