No case for the defence

[parklane1]

Why is it always the tactics which cop the blame? We've generally played with the same set up for most the season, taking in our good form/bad form and everything in between - were people complaining about 4231 with Bentaleb and Mason when we dominated Arsenal and Chelsea? Were we getting over run with them in the team when we had a decent defensive record over the period of games where Fazio/Vertonghen were partnered in defense? To my recollection that's a big fat no

I have been at 99% of the games this season and we have always looked vulnerable through the middle of the team, with Jan and Fazio playing as a pair we look tighter I agree but the M.F has gone missing on the defensive part of the game more often then not.

 

[billyiddo]

I have been at 99% of the games this season and we have always looked vulnerable through the middle of the team, with Jan and Fazio playing as a pair we look tighter I agree but the M.F has gone missing on the defensive part of the game more often then not.

i've been to many games as well - (although probably closer to 70% not sure if that invalidates my opinion to you or not...) and id say from the moment we brought the likes of Mason, Kane and Bentaleb in to the starting XI we have generally been pretty solid through the middle and it was been more via the wings where the opposition has had most success against us. of late (post cup final?) though i agree that we are getting opened up more through the middle.

 

[billyiddo]

Equally, why are you giving tactics a complete pass. We generally haven't played well this season, with a couple of notable exceptions. We have however looked extremely vulnerable defensively in the vast majority of games. Our results and league position have been heavily reliant on Kane and Eriksens late goals getting us out of trouble. This vulnerability has been a direct result of our tactics of playing attacking full backs, inadequate defensive cover and exposed defenders.

in what sense am i giving anything a free pass? there's a multitude of factors which contribute to any scenario - for example our recent defensive troubles have also coincided with : the loss of the cup final, walker carrying a knock (rumors), the dier and vertonghen partnership, townsend playing in front of walker and probably several other things - also natural form fluctuations of young players (including our central midfield partnership which is the youngest in the league by some distance and is also both of their first full season in the first team) - to ignore all the other factors and decide that it's simply a case of the wrong tactics is naive IMHO especially from behind the comfort of our PCs

i strongly disagree that (i) we have generally played poor this season and (ii) we have looked extremely vulnerable in the vast majority of games.

im always at a loss as to why having match winning players in the team is used as a negative - i could kind of see it with Bale as it was often a moment of individual magic but this season, a free-kick or two aside, there hasn't been much of that and we've been attacking well as a team, generally IMV

 

[parklane1]

i've been to many games as well - (although probably closer to 70% not sure if that invalidates my opinion to you or not...) and id say from the moment we brought the likes of Mason, Kane and Bentaleb in to the starting XI we have generally been pretty solid through the middle and it was been more via the wings where the opposition has had most success against us. of late (post cup final?) though i agree that we are getting opened up more through the middle.

Of course not , we have performed better as the season as gone on ( apart from the last few games but that could be tiredness), however a more defensive aware M/F player would not only cover the centre but also help with opposing players who are free on the wings. It seems to me that a lot of fans seem to think then when a DM is mentioned it means that it is just the middle he covers. A good DM will go where the danger is and be aware of runners wide or inside, I have said it before but neither Bentaleb; Mason or even Eriksen are doing this.

 

[Pirate55]

in what sense am i giving anything a free pass?

i disagree that (i) we have generally played poor this season and (ii) we have looked extremely vulnerable in the vast majority of games.

im always at a loss as to why having match winning players in the team is used as a negative - i could kind of see it with Bale as it was often a moment of individual magic but this season, a free-kick or two aside, there hasn't been much of that and we've been attacking well as a team, generally IMV

Because you said " why is it tactics that always get the blame?" Simply put, because it largely is the tactics that are responsible IMO.

I will just have to disagree with you on your assertion that we have not generally played poorly this season or looked defensively vulnerable. The first part can be partly explained by Poch initially giving our wasters like Ade, Kaboul,Solly, Paulinho, Capoue etc a chance before recognising what we already knew. However, he hasn't solved our defensive issues despite buying Dier, Fazio and Stambouli. To say we haven't looked defensively vulnerable in most games all season, is just to ignore the evidence of your eyes and the facts of the number of goals we have conceded - despite Lloris' often last ditch heroics!

 

[billyiddo]

Because you said " why is it tactics that always get the blame?" Simply put, because it largely is the tactics that are responsible IMO.

i updated my post before you replied - i think it applies here :

in what sense am i giving anything a free pass? there's a multitude of factors which contribute to any scenario - for example our recent defensive troubles have also coincided with : the loss of the cup final, walker carrying a knock (rumors), the dier and vertonghen partnership, townsend playing in front of walker and probably several other things - also natural form fluctuations of young players (including our central midfield partnership which is the youngest in the league by some distance and is also both of their first full season in the first team) - to ignore all the other factors and decide that it's simply a case of the wrong tactics is naive IMHO especially from behind the comfort of our PCs


@parklane1 - i don't disagree that a defense minded midfielder would be of benefit in certain situations - though id be more interested in a reader of the game (a la Carrick) than say a destroyer, and i think Bentaleb will grown in his defensive abilities going forward as IMV he has shown himself a good reader of the game (good at snuffing out chances/intercepting) - let's not forget this guys age, perhaps if we had Schneiderlin here instead then we'd be more consistent in our solidity through the middle?

 

[parklane1]

@@parklane1 - i don't disagree that a defense minded midfielder would be of benefit in certain situations - though id be more interested in a reader of the game (a la Carrick) than say a destroyer, and i think Bentaleb will grown in his defensive abilities going forward as IMV he has shown himself a good reader of the game (good at snuffing out chances/intercepting) - let's not forget this guys age, perhaps if we had Schneiderlin here instead then we'd be more consistent in our solidity through the middle?

I do like Carrick and as you say he is a great reader of a game, but a top DM is that as well and we lack a player like that. Bentaleb as you say is a kid and has plenty of time to improve his game but it could take him a couple of years ( if ever) to become what we need in that position.. Schneiderlin may have been that player but I think he will end up elsewhere.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think we may have missed the boat on Schneiderlin sadly. I can see us going for him again, but can also see our rivals trying for him simply to stop us getting him. Who would people want as an alternative?

What worries is that it's not just individual mistakes or bad positional play that has cost, it's pretty much everything:

We can't defend from set pieces. Players have free headers and even when they are marked, often the player marking him does not jump with him or put much of an effort in to stop him. We rarely even have players marking the posts! Such a basic thing that a lot of teams don't do these days, Carrick's goal for example could have been avoided had there been a defender on the line.

Gutless play from the likes of Vertonghen who is unwilling to put his body on the line where there is even the slightest chance he COULD get hurt.

Poor positional play from the likes of Walker.

Basic errors from practically all of the defenders at times.

 

[Pirate55]

i updated my post before you replied - i think it applies here :

in what sense am i giving anything a free pass? there's a multitude of factors which contribute to any scenario - for example our recent defensive troubles have also coincided with : the loss of the cup final, walker carrying a knock (rumors), the dier and vertonghen partnership, townsend playing in front of walker and probably several other things - also natural form fluctuations of young players (including our central midfield partnership which is the youngest in the league by some distance and is also both of their first full season in the first team) - to ignore all the other factors and decide that it's simply a case of the wrong tactics is naive IMHO especially from behind the comfort of our PCs
?

of course there are other factors involved, where did I say it was just tactics? I do however think it is primarily down to tactics combined with the players we have got. We now have a first team principally of youth ( good thing ) but we have squad players where we paid in wages and transfers something approaching £100m who simply aren't good enough (bad, bad thing).

Under Pochs watch, we have bought Dier, Davies, Fazio and Stambouli and our defensive woes continue. Mason and Bentaleb, while showing promise, are too often outnumbered in midfield. Neither are a defensive specialist,( either Carrick like or Mascherino like). Our tactics mean our full backs are caught out if position far too often and our less than brilliant centre backs are too often exposed one on one. No defensive cover is primarily responsible.

Add to that our tactical incompetence of dealing with dead balls - do we mark men or space, do we let midfielders pick up centre backs and do we have men on posts? These are pretty basic tactical pre-requisites which don't take much nous to sort out.

As I said, tactics is not the ONLY issue, but it is a pretty fundamental one.

 

[billyiddo]

@Pirate55

Well this is clearly the crux of the debate... i don't think the tactics are to blame above it simply being a case of players under performing or players coming in to the team recently who aren't providing enough work defensively - Townsend and Chadli aren't providing enough defensive work out wide and the Vertonghen/Dier partnership lacks (imv) a leader/organizer, those two factors combined is what results in the full backs being isolated and the two CBs getting stretched out of position - i would expect Bentaleb to provide more cover than he has done recently as usually what i have seen happen before this recent spell is that when the CBs push wide to cover the full backs he drops back to cover the space in front of them, for what ever reason this isn't happening as much lately, could be fatigue on his part or simply loss of form, i don't know.


of course in a sense that is all 'tactics' but im guessing what you have been referring too is 4231 and how we have been setup for the majority of games this season being the problem above all else?

 

[NWND]

I also think we have been exposed more down the wings than through the middle this season. Against Man Utd, Walker got done time and again and everything went down that flank. Again, while a lot of Leicester's goals came from the middle, as per the analysis on MOTD, a lot of the carnage was also from Walker's poor positioning. Phil Neville was a solid full-back whatever people think of him. He said that when Jan got caught out by missing the header, Walker should have tucked in behind in anticipation, but he didn't. Walker has always been poor positionally and he switches off. He relies on his pace to dig him out of holes. The problem with this is, is that while Walker's pace allows him to recover, the fact that he often gets done at first, or caught out, draws our other defenders towards danger that Walker should be snuffing out. It means the whole defence is often nervous and on edge.

I also think the problem is compounded when Townsend is in the team as in recent weeks over Lamela. Lamela works very hard, tracks back and covers. Townsend does none of this.

 

[Raziel]

I think we may have missed the boat on Schneiderlin sadly. I can see us going for him again, but can also see our rivals trying for him simply to stop us getting him. Who would people want as an alternative?

What worries is that it's not just individual mistakes or bad positional play that has cost, it's pretty much everything:

We can't defend from set pieces. Players have free headers and even when they are marked, often the player marking him does not jump with him or put much of an effort in to stop him. We rarely even have players marking the posts! Such a basic thing that a lot of teams don't do these days, Carrick's goal for example could have been avoided had there been a defender on the line.

Gutless play from the likes of Vertonghen who is unwilling to put his body on the line where there is even the slightest chance he COULD get hurt.

Poor positional play from the likes of Walker.

Basic errors from practically all of the defenders at times.

I think you are being a little over the top, but to clarify on the it's everything

- We rely on our two heavily attacking FB's which often leaves a space for the opposition. Teams have taken advantage of that in the past by simply hitting a ball over the top to a runner and that leaves the two CB's badly exposed.
- This is made worse by the fact that we don't play a dedicated DM/destroyer (not saying its a must, but contributes to the challenge), due to that, when we lose the ball, deep lying midfielders/defenders in the opposition have enough time to make a long ball pass to that runner.
- Finally, out of all of our CBs, only Fazio is any particularly any good in the air, so once he's out of the side, having no CB to cut out some of those punts again furthers the issue. Lack of a dominant defender in the air also hurts in set piece issues.

Said it before in this and other threads, in preseason it was clear strategy for the FB's to go forward, but a dedicated CM fell back into the space to cover (Mason did a lot in preseason), it's something I very rarely have seen in actual PL games.

To me, Kaboul/Vlad simply don't have the qualities to be significant for us.
Fazio is needs to be part of our setup regularly, or we need a replacement who is good in air
The midfield has to help cover for our suicidal FB style/model
We are badly dependent on an in form Walker, him injured or out of form is a major problem, Poch needs to figure out if the yank will work, or get cover/challenger

 

[braineclipse]

I think you are being a little over the top, but to clarify on the it's everything

- We rely on our two heavily attacking FB's which often leaves a space for the opposition. Teams have taken advantage of that in the past by simply hitting a ball over the top to a runner and that leaves the two CB's badly exposed.
- This is made worse by the fact that we don't play a dedicated DM/destroyer (not saying its a must, but contributes to the challenge), due to that, when we lose the ball, deep lying midfielders/defenders in the opposition have enough time to make a long ball pass to that runner.
- Finally, out of all of our CBs, only Fazio is any particularly any good in the air, so once he's out of the side, having no CB to cut out some of those punts again furthers the issue. Lack of a dominant defender in the air also hurts in set piece issues.

Said it before in this and other threads, in preseason it was clear strategy for the FB's to go forward, but a dedicated CM fell back into the space to cover (Mason did a lot in preseason), it's something I very rarely have seen in actual PL games.

To me, Kaboul/Vlad simply don't have the qualities to be significant for us.
Fazio is needs to be part of our setup regularly, or we need a replacement who is good in air
The midfield has to help cover for our suicidal FB style/model
We are badly dependent on an in form Walker, him injured or out of form is a major problem, Poch needs to figure out if the yank will work, or get cover/challenger

Another part of it is that our pressing (/re-pressing) hasn't been good enough recently. So we don't win the ball back quickly often enough and those balls into the channels you talk about are being hit with too much accuracy as opponents aren't under enough pressure. This doesn't have that to do with the lack of a DM as you seem to be saying, at least not for me. You're talking about a DM that should cover for attacking full backs and help out the CBs when both full backs attack, you can't expect that player to do that and put pressure on opponents on the ball relatively deep in their half. That pressing is the job of the front 4 most of the time, sometimes full backs, sometimes the more attacking of the two central midfielders, only rarely the job of the more defensive midfielder.

Some of our wide midfielders (in the attacking 3) have also been too lax defensively when we've been organized and left their full backs too exposed. When we don't press high we're not dropping deep enough as a unit for my liking, individual players get bypassed much too easily leaving way too much space to cover for our "back 6".

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

I just don't agree the issue is resolved by a DM. AVB was a very pragmatic manager and although the players (sandro) may have been in decline. These are our biggest defeats that season. Every one contains a DM i havent cherry picked.

5-0 loss liverpool Sandro
6-0 loss Emirates Marketing Project Sandro
5-1 loss Emirates Marketing Project capoue replaced dembele at half time when it was 1-0
4-0 loss chelsea Sandro

Therefore it would indicate that its a team structure we get caught out on. We seem to be particularly shaken against speed down the wings. When we are running towards our own goal we seem to always be in the wrong position. For a long time we were awful when the ball was played forward quickly, we seem to have resolved this and sprung another leak.

We also need walker to find some form. Yedlin WILL NOT sort us out defensively he really cannot defend.

 

[Raziel]

Another part of it is that our pressing (/re-pressing) hasn't been good enough recently. So we don't win the ball back quickly often enough and those balls into the channels you talk about are being hit with too much accuracy as opponents aren't under enough pressure. This doesn't have that to do with the lack of a DM as you seem to be saying, at least not for me. You're talking about a DM that should cover for attacking full backs and help out the CBs when both full backs attack, you can't expect that player to do that and put pressure on opponents on the ball relatively deep in their half. That pressing is the job of the front 4 most of the time, sometimes full backs, sometimes the more attacking of the two central midfielders, only rarely the job of the more defensive midfielder.

Some of our wide midfielders (in the attacking 3) have also been too lax defensively when we've been organized and left their full backs too exposed. When we don't press high we're not dropping deep enough as a unit for my liking, individual players get bypassed much too easily leaving way too much space to cover for our "back 6".

That's the key point

- you need to stop those accurate passes (any PL level footballer can make a decent pass with time/no pressure)

If it's pressing, a destroyer, or you accept the pass will happen and provide better CB cover, it needs to be addressed.

It's why most of us hate playing a side that has pace, it exposes the issue even more

 

[Rorschach]

Another part of it is that our pressing (/re-pressing) hasn't been good enough recently. So we don't win the ball back quickly often enough and those balls into the channels you talk about are being hit with too much accuracy as opponents aren't under enough pressure. This doesn't have that to do with the lack of a DM as you seem to be saying, at least not for me. You're talking about a DM that should cover for attacking full backs and help out the CBs when both full backs attack, you can't expect that player to do that and put pressure on opponents on the ball relatively deep in their half. That pressing is the job of the front 4 most of the time, sometimes full backs, sometimes the more attacking of the two central midfielders, only rarely the job of the more defensive midfielder.

Some of our wide midfielders (in the attacking 3) have also been too lax defensively when we've been organized and left their full backs too exposed. When we don't press high we're not dropping deep enough as a unit for my liking, individual players get bypassed much too easily leaving way too much space to cover for our "back 6".

I absolutely agree with this. The two incumbents of the wide AM roles are neither pressing well nor covering their respective full backs with any sort of conviction, and though a lot the goals we have conceded may ultimately be caused by individual errors they are often just the last domino to fall.

We were woefully exposed against Utd in the wide areas. Either by design or luck I think Utd's shape and personal were right on the day, and that coupled with an off day for a fair few of our lot resulted in a bit of a perfect storm. Utd's pressing was relentless, a lesson to us really, and conversely ours was a shambles. IMO Dembele and Lamela give us far more defensively and better ball retention further up the pitch. I think it is time to reintroduce them.

 

[Pirate55]

I think it is far too simplistic to just blame the wide AMs for not pressing enough to seek to explain our defensive inadequecies. Yes, this is certainly part of the problem but it does not altogether explain the obvious deficiencies elsewhere. The better the team we are up against, the more adept they are usually at dealing with a high press. While our own defenders have shown themselves time and again susceptible to this tactic used on us.

If we are going to continue to play 4231 and rely heavily on advanced attacking full backs, then another way needs to be found to deal with this openness at the back.Either we need significantly better players or a system that encorporates a more dedicated DM. Mason and Bentelab are not naturals in this role and don't dovetail well enough imo.

 

[Rorschach]

I think it is far too simplistic to just blame the wide AMs for not pressing enough to seek to explain our defensive inadequecies. Yes, this is certainly part of the problem but it does not altogether explain the obvious deficiencies elsewhere. The better the team we are up against, the more adept they are usually at dealing with a high press. While our own defenders have shown themselves time and again susceptible to this tactic used on us.

If we are going to continue to play 4231 and rely heavily on advanced attacking full backs, then another way needs to be found to deal with this openness at the back.Either we need significantly better players or a system that encorporates a more dedicated DM. Mason and Bentelab are not naturals in this role and don't dovetail well enough imo.

I didn't say it was the only cause.

 

[parklane1]

I think it is far too simplistic to just blame the wide AMs for not pressing enough to seek to explain our defensive inadequecies. Yes, this is certainly part of the problem but it does not altogether explain the obvious deficiencies elsewhere. The better the team we are up against, the more adept they are usually at dealing with a high press. While our own defenders have shown themselves time and again susceptible to this tactic used on us.

If we are going to continue to play 4231 and rely heavily on advanced attacking full backs, then another way needs to be found to deal with this openness at the back.Either we need significantly better players or a system that encorporates a more dedicated DM. Mason and Bentelab are not naturals in this role and don't dovetail well enough imo.

I agree, we do need to replace Townsend as he is not helping out on the defensive side of the game but that will not solve the problem we have through the middle ( although it would help).

 

[braineclipse]

I think it is far too simplistic to just blame the wide AMs for not pressing enough to seek to explain our defensive inadequecies. Yes, this is certainly part of the problem but it does not altogether explain the obvious deficiencies elsewhere. The better the team we are up against, the more adept they are usually at dealing with a high press. While our own defenders have shown themselves time and again susceptible to this tactic used on us.

If we are going to continue to play 4231 and rely heavily on advanced attacking full backs, then another way needs to be found to deal with this openness at the back.Either we need significantly better players or a system that encorporates a more dedicated DM. Mason and Bentelab are not naturals in this role and don't dovetail well enough imo.

Who is just blaming the wide AMs???

To be better at dealing with others pressing us high up the pitch we need to be better on the ball. Replacing quick passers like Mason or Bentaleb with a more defensive minded player that's worse on the ball makes us less capable of dealing with teams pressing high up the pitch. Another way of course is to rely more on long balls forward, we should definitely develop that side of our game too.

Since Poch came in we've exclusively signed players that are good on the ball, including in defensive areas. We've shifted out some players that were poor/average on the ball. And younger players that are better on the ball have been selected, quite possibly at the expense of defensive solidity.

Disagree that Bentaleb is not a natural in the deeper role. He's young, he's inexperienced, but he seems a perfect fit for that role and given time I think he'll be absolutely outstanding there. Mason too is still inexperienced and learning and it's way too early to say he's not a natural for that role.