ShipOfTheseus
Clint Dempsey
Yep, Poch is nuts. That was always priced in.
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Next Manager?
- Thread starter StephenH
- Start date
Yep, Poch is nuts. That was always priced in.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Who cares what trophy nonces say?
Harry Kane?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I think it's a really interesting piece, and ultimately I think what happened is that where Poch and Levy were once perfectly aligned, in terms of strategy and how to operate, they started to diverge. This divergence led to Poch's frustration, and it meant that the club stopped progressing. Inertia set in due to a lack of alignment, and if Poch does come back, we absolutely need that alignment. If we don't have it, Poch should not come and Levy shouldn't do it.
Could Poch have been more ok with some younger players from the football league? Maybe. Could he have loaned out more players and used that as a way to finance our transfer spending ala Chelsea? Maybe. But I trust his opinion that to make a real next step to winning the biggest prizes, it isn't as easy as that. Even Man United, who had a spirit and a culture and would be willing to trust young players and sign up and comers, still sprinkled the side with stardust to get it done in the biggest moments. I think Poch wanted us to be brave and do something like that.
I really expect Levy and Poch to have both gone away, done some deep thinking, and have understood where it went wrong. I hope it was a breakup that needed to happen in our mid 20s, so we can get the final mistakes out of a system and settle into a SAF like marriage in our 30s, once we've realised what we needed.
I think Levy:
- Under-estimated how much Poch was a difference maker, and allowed himself to be seduced by the idea of Jose as a miracle worker who could squeeze more out of the core of the squad that Poch could.
- Forgot that strategically, if we aren''t going to spend the most money, we need a culture, a system and a spirit which allows us to compete. The DNA he now talks about. We hired a chequebook manager for a squad that had over-performed thanks to Poch's methods. It was wrong strategically.
- Was wrestling with the fact that if Joe Lewis isn't going to put more money in, and we had some stadium financing difficulties, that as much as he wanted to satisfy Poch and in some ways knew if he was backed how he wanted he would deliver more success, he couldn't do it. But this is because...
I think Poch:
- Felt he had elevated the club on from 'competing for the European places' to being able to 'compete for the biggest trophies'. He thought the club had an opportunity.
- Felt that the job needed to change. We needed to sign a more elite mentality style of player that can cope with pressure in the biggest moments.
- Felt we needed to sell players to maintain a spirit and a culture that was sliding away.
Ultimately, where once they were aligned, they ended up diverging and it caused real inertia in the progress of the squad. I think Levy was offering Poch players like Clarke and Poch was annoyed that we weren't spending money on more proven players. So we ended up doing nothing. Because in some ways, Levy did trust Poch. And so rolled with it as much as he could. But it's still mis alignment, it's still not good for the club.
I think they both had points, and both made mistakes. I think maybe Poch could have appreciated that it might have taken a couple more years to get the club on a sounder footing to be able to start making the big moves he would want. And I think Levy could have done more to show Poch that if he gave us another couple of years, he had a job with Spurs for as long as he wanted it. So that the imperative of 'this being our only chance!' wasn't as much of a thing. We could have signed some good young english players, sold some older players who didn't want to run as much, and probably kept qualifying for the top 4, in preparation for a real push in a couple of years time.
So for me, it comes down to alignment. They need to agree on Spurs' place in the world, Spurs ambitions, and Spurs' strategy to compete. If they aren't aligned, they shouldn't do it. If they both feel like they know where they are, and what the job is, and what they need to get back to, and the timeline for doing it, then I think it will be one of the best things to happen to our club in a long time.
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A stormy exchange with Leonardos right hand
....
milo
Jack L. Jones
Most competitions are won by the richest two or three clubs in them. Poch winning something elsewhere wouldn't change that with us or the narrative. What we can look forward to is being one of the four richest clubs in England once the stadium revenue starts coming in properly.
I actually like the lemons. Footballers are superstitious. They'll have routines to try and give themselves an edge. As a psycological tool rather than a supernatural one it probably does help a bit. To subconsciously think the lemons are sucking in all the negative juju in the room could help them relax.
Sean dyche told a story about brian clough. Before a game he got a towel and balled it up and put a fooball on top. He got down on his knees and started wagging his finger at the ball. When they got the call to go out he said "now i've had a word with her and she's said she'll be your girlfriend. So take good care of her". Dyche said at the time he thought brian was just a bit nutty. But looking back he realised the psychological aspect. It released the tension before the game and the players were relaxed when they went out. And they won.
Sean dyche told a story about brian clough. Before a game he got a towel and balled it up and put a fooball on top. He got down on his knees and started wagging his finger at the ball. When they got the call to go out he said "now i've had a word with her and she's said she'll be your girlfriend. So take good care of her". Dyche said at the time he thought brian was just a bit nutty. But looking back he realised the psychological aspect. It released the tension before the game and the players were relaxed when they went out. And they won.
Notmegov
Roman Pavlyuchenko
I want him back so much it hurts! I know its wrong, I know its irrational....but I just want the joy of that man's face in my club again. After the year or so of bulbrick with that other man, I just won't Poch back. I know the pain will come again but christ the journey he took us on last time it's worth another shot.
Picture it..... The first game of the season full house the volume just get built and built until all anyone remembers is the noise of MAURICIO POCHETTION he's MAGIC YOU KNOW!!!!!!
Picture it..... The first game of the season full house the volume just get built and built until all anyone remembers is the noise of MAURICIO POCHETTION he's MAGIC YOU KNOW!!!!!!
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
DeanoAustin
Christian Ziege
The hairs on the back of my neck were standing up there. Im starting to believe. I know all the pitfalls, all the arguments against it, it's not logical but I love him and he loves us.
Get it done Doctor Evil, back the man and all is forgiven. We can forget the last two years and go back to being the most exciting club in the league.
He's magic you know...
DeanoAustin
Christian Ziege
He was tired and needed a break. Levy had to scratch the Mourinho itch and realise he had what he needed under his nose. Us fans became spoiled and entitled, me included and didn't know what we had.
We've all learned the grass isn't greener. We've all realised we belong together. He's coming back and the bond is going to be stronger than ever. That's what I want to believe so I'm believing it.
It had gone stale. Levy overestimated the squad and underestimated poch. Probably thought it would be easier and cheaper to get a new manager in than overhaul the squad. Levy also thought mourinho could do better and give us a winning mentality.
Just to provide a little counterbalance to the Poch love-in. From the Guardian a couple of weeks ago...
...... This is Conte’s gift: knowing how to elevate good footballers into winning ones. How many of Inter’s regular starters had conquered one of Europe’s “big five” domestic leagues before this season? Not Lukaku, and not Samir Handanovic, Stefan De Vrij, Lautaro Martínez, Nicolò Barella, Alessandro Bastoni, Milan Skriniar, nor Marcelo Brozovic either. Not even Achraf Hakimi, though he had a cameo role on a Champions League-winning side at Real Madrid.
Conte described the challenge he faced at Inter as the toughest of his career. Not only did he need to break a cycle of underachievement for the club he now managed, but also to end an era of unprecedented success for Juventus – a run of nine consecutive league titles that he launched. All this, in the middle of a pandemic, with no fans in the stands.
Last season it seemed as though the task might overwhelm him. Despite leading Inter to second place in Serie A and a Europa League final, Conte was constantly on edge, accusing journalists of expecting too much and his club of not supporting him enough. He contemplated walking away before receiving reassurances at a meeting with the Inter president, Steven Zhang, in August.
Still, this season had the potential to test his patience further. Inter added Hakimi and Arturo Vidal in the summer but the financial realities of the pandemic were starting to bite for Inter’s owners, Suning. Wages were delayed, and the January transfer window closed without any reinforcements. Inter’s neighbours, Milan, were still top of the league.
Conte adapted, bringing fringe players back into the fold. Christian Eriksen, after struggling to impose himself in a No 10 role early in the season, was reinvented as a hybrid regista/box-to-box midfielder. Ivan Perisic was reimagined as a wing-back.
Inter have not always dazzled. Conte began this season with plans for a more expansive approach, but the imperative to win games prevailed as he shifted the emphasis away from possession toward a quick-strike philosophy geared to minimise his team’s own mistakes and punish those of their opponents. Skriniar, dropped early in the season to make way for more expansive ball-players, was restored as a defensive pillar.
Inter conceded 23 goals in their first 17 games, then six in the next 17. They turned the title race into a procession, taking 41 points from a possible 45 since late January. How is anyone supposed to keep up with a front-runner who never misses a step?
...... This is Conte’s gift: knowing how to elevate good footballers into winning ones. How many of Inter’s regular starters had conquered one of Europe’s “big five” domestic leagues before this season? Not Lukaku, and not Samir Handanovic, Stefan De Vrij, Lautaro Martínez, Nicolò Barella, Alessandro Bastoni, Milan Skriniar, nor Marcelo Brozovic either. Not even Achraf Hakimi, though he had a cameo role on a Champions League-winning side at Real Madrid.
Conte described the challenge he faced at Inter as the toughest of his career. Not only did he need to break a cycle of underachievement for the club he now managed, but also to end an era of unprecedented success for Juventus – a run of nine consecutive league titles that he launched. All this, in the middle of a pandemic, with no fans in the stands.
Last season it seemed as though the task might overwhelm him. Despite leading Inter to second place in Serie A and a Europa League final, Conte was constantly on edge, accusing journalists of expecting too much and his club of not supporting him enough. He contemplated walking away before receiving reassurances at a meeting with the Inter president, Steven Zhang, in August.
Still, this season had the potential to test his patience further. Inter added Hakimi and Arturo Vidal in the summer but the financial realities of the pandemic were starting to bite for Inter’s owners, Suning. Wages were delayed, and the January transfer window closed without any reinforcements. Inter’s neighbours, Milan, were still top of the league.
Conte adapted, bringing fringe players back into the fold. Christian Eriksen, after struggling to impose himself in a No 10 role early in the season, was reinvented as a hybrid regista/box-to-box midfielder. Ivan Perisic was reimagined as a wing-back.
Inter have not always dazzled. Conte began this season with plans for a more expansive approach, but the imperative to win games prevailed as he shifted the emphasis away from possession toward a quick-strike philosophy geared to minimise his team’s own mistakes and punish those of their opponents. Skriniar, dropped early in the season to make way for more expansive ball-players, was restored as a defensive pillar.
Inter conceded 23 goals in their first 17 games, then six in the next 17. They turned the title race into a procession, taking 41 points from a possible 45 since late January. How is anyone supposed to keep up with a front-runner who never misses a step?
Not sure i get your logic as Poch was calling out the clubs transfer policy for a couple of years almost
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
Thinking I might vote Conte now. Truth is, we don't know enough about the detail - who's available, what they'd cost etc.
Poch +ives
- Knows the squad well, won't need to get up to speed much with players
- Knows the club and how it works, should be able to get to work without a learning curve
- You know we will get a highly competent manager, there is little risk we'll get worse under him
- More management experienced than Conte
- No club compensation to pay
- Brings something fresh to the party - most of the players know Poch's modus operandi. His ideas and philosophy won't have changed. Conte would bring something new to learn.
- Poch can be wish-washy, Conte is more ruthless, more focused maybe? Has won it all, knows what it takes at a higher level? Idk. That is highly speculative.
- More 'natural' fight from a Conte team. Poch tries to instill fight, but its a conscious effort. Day-to-day poch is a nice guy. Whereas Conte is naturally combative, and up for the fight.
I guess DL will be looking for a plan from Poch, and hopefully himself too. What can we do differently this time to have the edge? That is interesting, as we could potentially build upon a strong foundation from Poch 1 and improve things this time. But a word of caution. Poch walked into a team with Eriksen and a number of young players who bought into his methods. There is no guarantee that will replicate this time around with new players we bring in. However, if players do buy into his - extremely tough fitness regime - and philosophy then we know he will elevate players. He will get more from them than other managers do.
So on balance I will vote Poch. I am not convinced it will be like last time - it won't and that is a good thing. This time we should do it better!