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Jurgen the German said:
Trophies are the true currency of success. Players want trophies, hence why Harry Kane left the country to join Bayern in the pursuit of silverware, clearly golden boots and all time top scorer of Spurs and England weren’t enough for him. We’re touchy about the subject of trophies because we haven’t been very good at winning them recently. Its as simple as that.
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They are. But they are not the only currency. To say you can only enjoy football if you win a trophy is a childish trope rolled out by immature fans that bleat on about silverwear as tho it’s the panacea to everything. In truth it won’t change much. There will be a high from finally winning, and then we’ll go back to day to day. A trophy doesn’t suddenly make you more contented in life or give you are larger nob or make pub banter much different. The way some fans are fixated it’s like they defer their own success onto the club. Which is flawed because a trophy doesn’t change much in real terms. Of course we still want to win and aspire to dominate. But a. Would it change your life? and b. The reality has been a petro-subsidised hegemony of silverware with only Liverpool able to break through.

Now controls are coming in to address the lack of fair competition and the silverwear dominance in the hands of a few subsidised teams, we’re well positioned. Nothing is a given, there are no guarantees, if there were football would be boring. But if that is your vibe - guaranteed success - then support a club with that setup. It’s simple. But for 90%+ of football fans up and down the country, the prospect of silverware is slim. At least we’re in the mix and have a shot. Which can’t be said of villa for the past 2 decades.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
They are. But they are not the only currency. To say you can only enjoy football if you win a trophy is a childish trope rolled by immature fans that bleat on about silver wear as tho it’s the panacea to everything. In truth it won’t change much. There will be a high from finally winning, and then we’ll go go back to day to day. A trophy doesn’t suddenly make you more contented in life or give you are larger nob or make pub banter much different. The way some fans are fixated it’s like they defer their own success onto the club. Which is flawed because a trophy doesn’t change much in real terms. Of course we still want to win and aspire to dominate. But a. Would it change your life? and b. The reality has been a petro-subsidised hegemony of silverware with only Liverpool able to break through.

Now controls are coming in to address the lack of fair competition and the silverwear dominance in the hands of a few subsidised teams, we’re well positioned. Nothing is a given, there are no guarantees, if there were football would be boring. But if that is your vibe - guaranteed success - then support a club with that setup. It’s simple. But for 90%+ of football fans up and down the country, the prospect of silverware is slim. At least we’re in the mix and have a shot. Which can’t be said of villa for the past 2 decades.
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This is all great, but the original conversation was about how big clubs are measured and they are measured in trophies. All the other top clubs manage to do it, but of course Spurs shouldn't be held to the same barometer yet still be considered at the same level.

When Spurs do actually win trophies again, and the big club debate comes up for the umpteenth time do you think our fans are going to point to the time we came runners up in the league, our nice shiny stadium or the trophies we won? Hmmm I wonder.

Arsenal even during their downturn have won trophies, that's what the big clubs do on a frequent basis. Until then we will not be on a par with any of them and are the next tier below. And me saying that doesn't mean I don't enjoy what we are, I'm quite comfortable with it and enjoy the ride.....
 
harr1984 said:
This is all great, but the original conversation was about how big clubs are measured and they are measured in trophies. All the other top clubs manage to do it, but of course Spurs shouldn't be held to the same barometer yet still be considered at the same level.

When Spurs do actually win trophies again, and the big club debate comes up for the umpteenth time do you think our fans are going to point to the time we came runners up in the league, our nice shiny stadium or the trophies we won? Hmmm I wonder.

Arsenal even during their downturn have won trophies, that's what the big clubs do on a frequent basis. Until then we will not be on a par with any of them and are the next tier below. And me saying that doesn't mean I don't enjoy what we are, I'm quite comfortable with it and enjoy the ride.....
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No the original conversation was saying Villa are equal to Spurs. And if you are a crying moany fan who is fixated by counting trophies I suppose it is. But trophies are not the only metric to life, nor are they the only metric of size, success and enjoyment, because there are very few trophies that are not hoovered up by petro-subsidised clubs. Yet you wouldn't say we are the same size as Accrington Stanley would you? By your and other posters logic accrington stanley are actually bigger than Spurs because they won the League Two cup in 2018. Its a flawed moany logic that some Spurs fans like to bleat on with when feeling miffed.
 
SpurMeUp said:
No the original conversation was saying Villa are equal to Spurs. And if you are a crying moany fan who is fixated by counting trophies I suppose it is. But trophies are not the only metric to life, nor are they the only metric of size, success and enjoyment, because there are very few trophies that are not hoovered up by petro-subsidised clubs. Yet you wouldn't say we are the same size as Accrington Stanley would you? By your and other posters logic accrington stanley are actually bigger than Spurs because they won the League Two cup in 2018. It's a flawed moany logic that some Spurs fans like to bleat on with when feeling miffed.
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It is funny that you can't compute the fact that I am happy with Spurs and what we have 'accomplished' yet not deluded to think we are one of the top clubs when we haven't won anything for what is fast approaching 20 years. I'm not crying about it, I'm not miffed about anything, the trophy thing really doesn't bother me.

We are one of the bigger clubs by name, as are Villa and until we start winning things we will remain in that bracket...
 
It seems like the obsession with comparing teams is fairly modern, potentially a byproduct of the social media age. Maybe some of the older posters (I'm 36 so not young-young) could say if it existed in the 80s and 90s.

I couldn't give a fudge what any other team is or isn't. I want to enjoy watching Spurs each week, ideally culminating in a trophy. Anything beyond that is just noise.
 
SpurMeUp said:
They are. But they are not the only currency. To say you can only enjoy football if you win a trophy is a childish trope rolled out by immature fans that bleat on about silverwear as tho it’s the panacea to everything. In truth it won’t change much. There will be a high from finally winning, and then we’ll go back to day to day. A trophy doesn’t suddenly make you more contented in life or give you are larger nob or make pub banter much different. The way some fans are fixated it’s like they defer their own success onto the club. Which is flawed because a trophy doesn’t change much in real terms. Of course we still want to win and aspire to dominate. But a. Would it change your life? and b. The reality has been a petro-subsidised hegemony of silverware with only Liverpool able to break through.

Now controls are coming in to address the lack of fair competition and the silverwear dominance in the hands of a few subsidised teams, we’re well positioned. Nothing is a given, there are no guarantees, if there were football would be boring. But if that is your vibe - guaranteed success - then support a club with that setup. It’s simple. But for 90%+ of football fans up and down the country, the prospect of silverware is slim. At least we’re in the mix and have a shot. Which can’t be said of villa for the past 2 decades.
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You’re right about trophies not changing my life besides giving me an extra spring in my step for a few days/weeks. But at the same time, the top 4 finishes we achieved under Poch and Conte, the runners up medal we got in 2017 and the CL final didn’t change my life either besides making me happy for a few weeks in the buildup to the final. So if we’re talking recent history of trophies (say 20-30 years) then there really isn’t much to argue over when it comes to Spurs v Villa as neither have been overly successful. If you look at selective factors like stadiums, last 15 years in the league then yes there’s no argument we’ve been largely better than Villa. But they would argue they were mostly better than us from 1992-2005 so it’s much of a muchness. And if they were to finish above us again this season that would strengthen their case having been above us two seasons running yes? Seen as it’s all about league finishes and not trophies. And if we’re talking about stadiums being a factor then West Ham and Saudi Sportswashing Machine would enter the debate as they both have big stadiums but I don’t think you’d advocate them being bigger than Villa would you?
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Fully agree
Teams are judged on them
Big you don’t go back 40 odds years and argue their relevance
I mean there are 2 generations of people in there who just wouldn’t consider it

That’s not to say that they don’t have history or a fan base… but then so do many many clubs. The mud that gets slung at us for not winning trophies is because we are a bigger club. It doesn’t get slung at Villa and Everton because they aren’t. London is a factor, and fan base too.

Villa are like Deportivo in Spain basically
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I think mid gets slung at us because we have been close, knocking on the door, finishing 2nd and getting to multiple finals. Villa and Everton have been largely irrelevant in terms of challenging for the league and getting to the latter stages of tournaments. We were very much in the conversation. If Villa continue to build and do well in Europe then I’m sure questions will get asked of them if they don’t eventually get over the line.
 
SpurMeUp said:
No the original conversation was saying Villa are equal to Spurs. And if you are a crying moany fan who is fixated by counting trophies I suppose it is. But trophies are not the only metric to life, nor are they the only metric of size, success and enjoyment, because there are very few trophies that are not hoovered up by petro-subsidised clubs. Yet you wouldn't say we are the same size as Accrington Stanley would you? By your and other posters logic accrington stanley are actually bigger than Spurs because they won the League Two cup in 2018. Its a flawed moany logic that some Spurs fans like to bleat on with when feeling miffed.
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At the very least Villa are comparable in size to Spurs. if you look at selective measures like stadium size and league finishes that conveniently make us look better than of course we’re going to come out on top of “who is the bigger club?” debate. They would counter and say they have more trophies and league titles than us and have won the CL and could also point out that whilst we have been better than them since 2006, we don’t have any tangible success other than 1 league cup to underpin that dominance over them.

When Real Madrid and Barca fans argue and compare who is bigger I would guess they would both talk about the volume and quality of trophies they’ve won recently rather than getting into debates about stadiums and infrastructure. Man United’s stadium is falling apart, doesn’t mean they’re not still a massive club.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
No the original conversation was saying Villa are equal to Spurs. And if you are a crying moany fan who is fixated by counting trophies I suppose it is. But trophies are not the only metric to life, nor are they the only metric of size, success and enjoyment, because there are very few trophies that are not hoovered up by petro-subsidised clubs. Yet you wouldn't say we are the same size as Accrington Stanley would you? By your and other posters logic accrington stanley are actually bigger than Spurs because they won the League Two cup in 2018. Its a flawed moany logic that some Spurs fans like to bleat on with when feeling miffed.
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Honestly, the only person who seems bothered by it is you. You say you don't judge yourself by the trophies won or in our case not won but no one suggested that you should do so or that they do themselves, which implies you're projecting somewhat. If Spurs were to win the league this season by 10 points, it's not going to change my life one iota. I'm not suddenly going to double my profit for this tax year, my kids aren't going to win scholarships to Eton. Win, lose or draw I still support Spurs, that doesn't change. So i'm not seeking personal validation or reflected glory, but it is a competitive sport and the aim of competitive sports is to win.

The more you win the more successful you are and the bigger the club becomes due to increased size of fanbase, sponsorships, visibility etc etc etc. In my time growing up in North London I knew precisely one Chelsea fan. Now you see their shirts everywhere due to their success on the pitch. That is what grows a club more any other factor. Look at City now, go to any park in London and you're even City flipping City shirts on kids. That was literally unthinkable even 13 years ago.

I can enjoy the football (and I do) even if we don't win, but i'm not going to then pretend that actually winning isn't the point. Winning is literally the point of competitive sports, my support of the team isn't going to blind me to that fact.
 
Jurgen the German said:
At the very least Villa are comparable in size to Spurs. if you look at selective measures like stadium size and league finishes that conveniently make us look better than of course we’re going to come out on top of “who is the bigger club?” debate. They would counter and say they have more trophies and league titles than us and have won the CL and could also point out that whilst we have been better than them since 2006, we don’t have any tangible success other than 1 league cup to underpin that dominance over them.

When Real Madrid and Barca fans argue and compare who is bigger I would guess they would both talk about the volume and quality of trophies they’ve won recently rather than getting into debates about stadiums and infrastructure. Man United’s stadium is falling apart, doesn’t mean they’re not still a massive club.
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Some Spurs fan you are!

And it's also not really a well-judged arguement. Villa haven't won the CL. They won a Trophy in Europe a decade earlier no? The CL was formed in '92, Villa won the Europa Cup in '82; around the time we were also winning trophies, pre-oiled clubs.

At the end of the day you can see it however you wish. I take heart that we actually have played the likes of Real Madrid and Barca. When Villa were playing Sclamhorpe in the Championship. :D

I also know that size is not a black-and-white metric but a scale. And if you plot us on that scale, with the facilities, past 2 decades of league finishes and European involvement, as well as our sustainability - not requiring a sugar daddy to subsidise us - then you can draw your own conclusions.

We've seen with Lecister, and Villa themselves how weak their foundations are. When the Billionaire gets bored of losing millions a year, or cops it and their family take over, they can - and did! - drop like a stone as the finances were built on air.

So draw your own conclusions and decide if you are a glass-half-empty moaner or a glass-half-full supporter.
 
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Bishop said:
Honestly, the only person who seems bothered by it is you. You say you don't judge yourself by the trophies won or in our case not won but no one suggested that you should do so or that they do themselves, which implies you're projecting somewhat. If Spurs were to win the league this season by 10 points, it's not going to change my life one iota. I'm not suddenly going to double my profit for this tax year, my kids aren't going to win scholarships to Eton. Win, lose or draw I still support Spurs, that doesn't change. So i'm not seeking personal validation or reflected glory, but it is a competitive sport and the aim of competitive sports is to win.
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Yet this point seems to have you exercised for some reason. Maybe there is some truth to it. But I am glad you appreciate Spurs trophies do not define you.

Bishop said:
The more you win the more successful you are and the bigger the club becomes due to increased size of fanbase, sponsorships, visibility etc etc etc. In my time growing up in North London I knew precisely one Chelsea fan. Now you see their shirts everywhere due to their success on the pitch. That is what grows a club more any other factor. Look at City now, go to any park in London and you're even City flipping City shirts on kids. That was literally unthinkable even 13 years ago.

I can enjoy the football (and I do) even if we don't win, but i'm not going to then pretend that actually winning isn't the point. Winning is literally the point of competitive sports, my support of the team isn't going to blind me to that fact.
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What makes gamblers come back for more? Is it the winning or the losing? Is the winning really the point? If we won every game guaranteed, would you enjoy supporting the club?
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yet this point seems to have you exercised for some reason. Maybe there is some truth to it. But I am glad you appreciate Spurs trophies do not define you.



What makes gamblers come back for more? Is it the winning or the losing? Is the winning really the point? If we won every game guaranteed, would you enjoy supporting the club?
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I think you missed the point entirely. Win, lose or draw I enjoy supporting the club because I am not seeking validation via football. I really started watching football properly in the 90s when we were generally brick, so I have no expectations of success, I literally have never seen it. Yet here I am on a Wednesday morning conversing on a Spurs specific forum with a random guy i don't know about the club we both support. Maybe, just maybe i'm just a fan of the club.

Gambling is a poor analogy, its not a competitive sport. Football is, Basketball is, Boxing is, Cricket is...etct etc etc. We could lose EVERY game and i'd still be here supporting, annoyed yes, who wants to lose every match but it wouldn't change my enjoyment of the club. I don't like Spurs any more now in 2024 when we probably win 20ish+ league games versus 1994 when we lost 19.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Some Spurs fan you are!

And it's also not really a well-judged arguement. Villa haven't won the CL. They won a Trophy in Europe a decade earlier no? The CL was formed in '92, Villa won the Europa Cup in '82; around the time we were also winning trophies, pre-oiled clubs.

At the end of the day you can see it however you wish. I take heart that we actually have played the likes of Real Madrid and Barca. When Villa were playing Sclamhorpe in the Championship. :D

I also know that size is not a black-and-white metric but a scale. And if you plot us on that scale, with the facilities, past 2 decades of league finishes and European involvement, as well as our sustainability - not requiring a sugar daddy to subsidise us - then you can draw your own conclusions.

We've seen with Lecister, and Villa themselves how weak their foundations are. When the Billionaire gets bored of losing millions a year, or cops it and their family take over, they can - and did! - drop like a stone as the finances were built on air.

So draw your own conclusions and decide if you are a glass-half-empty moaner or a glass-half-full supporter.
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😂😂 I believe I even said Spurs are bigger, but that Villa are comparable. Given their history, fanbase, trophies and stature it’s not an outrageous view to hold. I’m not going to say Spurs are miles bigger if I don’t think it’s true. If we had actual trophies on top of the infrastructure, league finishes and European appearances there wouldn’t be much of a debate but alas we haven’t picked up silverware so the margin isn’t as big as you’d like it to be or think it is.

CL/European Cup, it’s the same trophy and tournament, it’s just a lot bigger now with a lot more teams competing in it. It was just the champions of each league when they won it.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
The fact they advertise CL seats on the radio
I know people will claim they fill the stadium but I’ve heard many adverts for city games on the radio when up in Manchester
They also give tickets away to schools. They claim is a community thing but it’s because they don’t sell out without it
I know a few companies that work with city and they always have a mare predicting footfall game by game (you need to know the demographic to plan for impact on things like food and cleaning)
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Same as us then?.... Shows our CL games also under capacity
 
SpurMeUp said:
If we are 'honest' there are clear distinctions. How many times were Villa in Europe over the last decade vs THFC? Do Villa have a state of the art stadium? We are in a different league on both counts. Sure Villa could go on to do anything in the future. But that is all to be writted. In theory we could win the league in a hypothetical future. When Enic took over Villa and Spurs were absolutely comparable. What happened next is a fascinating case study as to why @DubaiSpur daydream is just that - a dreamy fixation. Randy Learner spent a staggering $100,000 a day on Villa. He did exactly what DubaSpurs has wet dreams about. Levy invested in Spurs, gave the coaches and teams a state of the art training facility and developed a revenue generating stadium. Villa crashed and burned whereas we enjoyed many seasons in the CL. The notion that we have done naff all is a load of gonad*s. I don't measure my own personal successes by awards. Do you? Millennials especially are all into experiences are they not? I think Spurs fans have been on a rollorcoaster of ups and downs in the Enic era, and mostly in and around Europe. Something Villa haven't enjoyed over the same period. Yet you think we're the same. Fair enough. I don't subscribe to that myself.
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OK so that compares their previous owner and our current owners. However add balance here do you not also have to do the same thing and compare their existing owner? It seems that Aston Villa's trajectory has been a pretty steep upwards curve since then, no?
 
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