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Moussa Sissoko

BrainOfLevy said:
I'm sorry but I'm just not having it. No one is saying he is Messi incarnate this season, but is completely fair to say he has been decent. And no, not 'if Alli performed like that it would be a terrible performance', he has just been purely decent. Last season he was awful, no one is denying it.

Your line on his touch, vision, movement etc is all related to last season. This season you simply can't level any of that at him. (Unless you're holding him to the standards of an excellent technical player rather than the physical player that he is).

Again, NO ONE IS SAYING HE HAS BEEN OUTSTANDING. Simply decent. To deny that, and talk in a way in which if it was to him would be unbelievably patronizing, is just....ugh. I'm not stretching whatsoever to say he's been decent. It's really not that difficult to say that when most fans are actually on side with that now. He hasn't 'been more confident' in the last few games, he's been performing much better since Juve. Shock horror, another player who has gotten the benefit of a Poch pre-season is now actually performing. Probably just a lesson to hold off on digging down into a player full tilt until they've had that opportunity, no?
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I havent dug into him full tilt at all. In fact it has been years since I even posted on here before a few weeks ago.

Beginning of the season he was just as poor. It is literally the last few games he has stepped up. That includes his touch and vision etc. Early games, just as bad as last season. Recent games, improving.

The whole technical player vs physical player is a total straw man. Its nonsense. You use the term as if to compare Messi to Shawcross. Thats not even relevant. Sissoko is a midfielder. Even the most basic of midfielders should have some technique, Sissoko has shown so little in the fundamentals it genuinely confuses me. "Oh but he is physical he's not supposed to be able to trap a ball..." come on, its an excuse and a weak one at that.

He has most certainly been more confident the last few games, and with that his head has been up and he has actually been more involved - as opposed to just ignored and played past by his team mates. Confidence is clearly the difference. A run of games feeding into it, he begins to improve and show he has more ability than previously seen, fairly straight forward stuff really.

With no intent to partonise, let me spell something out to you. I post on this basis:
  • No agendas. I dont care for them. I say what I think and that alone.
  • Respond to the post, not the man. You and I can disagree completely here, Ill happily agree with you elsewhere.
  • If someone puts forward an argument that makes me reconsider mine, I will. Im not trying to win anything, simply enjoy a debate occasionally.
Youve come across as increasingly hysterical in an effort to defend a player who simply doesnt deserve it. I can see you are exacerbated with the reaction to him in the crowd, with the lack of support right there, and I can understand that. But this isnt a case where people have been unreasonable. He really has been shockingly poor, and while he has improved its still some way from being to an acceptable standard.

I hope he continues to improve. I like a powerful runner, players like that can make things happen and break a deadlock in a game. If he plays a blinder next week Ill be utterly ecstatic and will be in this thread happily praising him. And Im pretty sure most every other poster here you have pinned as having some agenda against him will feel the same.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Kind of an important point in a logical debate though isn't it? That the manager wants him? That the obviously successful and universally adored manager wants him? Unless he is blind to something that some people here can see, that he can't?
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Very similar conversations were had in the summer.

Sissoko cost a fortune. Sissoko had a shocking season. Its entirely possible we had no choice but to keep him because nobody was interested.

Good management fundamentals = you are stuck with an asset you might as well try and make him work for you.

Not saying thats the case here, perhaps Poch really does love him, just saying that equally it could easily be a whole different story.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Very similar conversations were had in the summer.

Sissoko cost a fortune. Sissoko had a shocking season. Its entirely possible we had no choice but to keep him because nobody was interested.

Good management fundamentals = you are stuck with an asset you might as well try and make him work for you.

Not saying thats the case here, perhaps Poch really does love him, just saying that equally it could easily be a whole different story.
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Everything we know of Poch, a guy that is relentlessly focussed on high standards and continuous improvement, suggests Sissoko wouldn't be here at all if he wasn't any good. Or he may be here, but he certainly wouldn't be starting. We wouldn't be loaning Onamah out etc.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I havent dug into him full tilt at all. In fact it has been years since I even posted on here before a few weeks ago.

Beginning of the season he was just as poor. It is literally the last few games he has stepped up. That includes his touch and vision etc. Early games, just as bad as last season. Recent games, improving.

The whole technical player vs physical player is a total straw man. Its nonsense. You use the term as if to compare Messi to Shawcross. Thats not even relevant. Sissoko is a midfielder. Even the most basic of midfielders should have some technique, Sissoko has shown so little in the fundamentals it genuinely confuses me. "Oh but he is physical he's not supposed to be able to trap a ball..." come on, its an excuse and a weak one at that.

He has most certainly been more confident the last few games, and with that his head has been up and he has actually been more involved - as opposed to just ignored and played past by his team mates. Confidence is clearly the difference. A run of games feeding into it, he begins to improve and show he has more ability than previously seen, fairly straight forward stuff really.

With no intent to partonise, let me spell something out to you. I post on this basis:
  • No agendas. I dont care for them. I say what I think and that alone.
  • Respond to the post, not the man. You and I can disagree completely here, Ill happily agree with you elsewhere.
  • If someone puts forward an argument that makes me reconsider mine, I will. Im not trying to win anything, simply enjoy a debate occasionally.
Youve come across as increasingly hysterical in an effort to defend a player who simply doesnt deserve it. I can see you are exacerbated with the reaction to him in the crowd, with the lack of support right there, and I can understand that. But this isnt a case where people have been unreasonable. He really has been shockingly poor, and while he has improved its still some way from being to an acceptable standard.

I hope he continues to improve. I like a powerful runner, players like that can make things happen and break a deadlock in a game. If he plays a blinder next week Ill be utterly ecstatic and will be in this thread happily praising him. And Im pretty sure most every other poster here you have pinned as having some agenda against him will feel the same.
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You can call me hysterical all you like but it's clear to anyone that reads this thread that I've said on multiple occasions he was absolutely terrible last season, and he's been no more than a 7/10 in this. He definitely wasn't as bad even in the first games this season as last, because last season his decision making was terrible, his touch and passing was shocking, and he did look like a shell of a football player particularly in those first few months. Then he made a few sub appearances and looked quite good (I'm thinking Swansea, Burnley at home), he also started against Hull at home and completely filled a role in the team that played well. Then the team picked up amazing form and rightly he couldn't get back in, until towards the end where he did a decent job at right wing back against Leceister.

His shockIng, terrible, awful performances came right at the start, in particular in the CL last year. As for this season, ever since the Juve game people noticed his improvement. It's just for a weeks people would look at a misplaced pass as proof he was still terrible, without looking at him objectively. He's been improving further the last few weeks but even from that Juve game he was a totally different player to those shockingly bad autumn months last year.

And again, I'm not being hysterical for arguing that a player that's starting regularly in a side in good form and that has just been called up by his national team is merely decent. What I find hysterical is the attempts to dig in to an unreasonable standard the performances of one of our own players when most of our fans and most of even the non Spurs affiliated media can see he has improved. It's like a few people are laughing in their own 2016 backslapping party.

To keep claiming he 'can't trap a ball' is the exact kind of thing I'm talking about. You're the one making a straw man of my point around physical players by saying that. By talking him down and making out that what everyone can see is somehow nothing more than pub standard, which is effectively what you are saying.

Most people are saying he has been decent, not necessarily anything more, and encouraging fellow Spurs fans to get behind a Spurs player that is clearly improving and contributing, without contributing themselves to the negative and frankly embarrassing atmosphere around a specific player that probably contributed to his lack of confidence in the first place. (I don't agree with anything of what Danny Rose said to The Sun but if nothing else it proves that the players know exactly what is said by us - so he was terrible last year? No brick Sherlock. How about we get behind him as the other players considering the fact that the fans are behind the team and willing them forward is a big contributing factor to how well we've done - not exactly a massive surprise our home form was the best when our atmosphere was at its greatest)
 
BrainOfLevy said:
You can call me hysterical all you like but it's clear to anyone that reads this thread that I've said on multiple occasions he was absolutely terrible last season, and he's been no more than a 7/10 in this. He definitely wasn't as bad even in the first games this season as last, because last season his decision making was terrible, his touch and passing was shocking, and he did look like a shell of a football player particularly in those first few months. Then he made a few sub appearances and looked quite good (I'm thinking Swansea, Burnley at home), he also started against Hull at home and completely filled a role in the team that played well. Then the team picked up amazing form and rightly he couldn't get back in, until towards the end where he did a decent job at right wing back against Leceister.

His shockIng, terrible, awful performances came right at the start, in particular in the CL last year. As for this season, ever since the Juve game people noticed his improvement. It's just for a weeks people would look at a misplaced pass as proof he was still terrible, without looking at him objectively. He's been improving further the last few weeks but even from that Juve game he was a totally different player to those shockingly bad autumn months last year.

And again, I'm not being hysterical for arguing that a player that's starting regularly in a side in good form and that has just been called up by his national team is merely decent. What I find hysterical is the attempts to dig in to an unreasonable standard the performances of one of our own players when most of our fans and most of even the non Spurs affiliated media can see he has improved. It's like a few people are laughing in their own 2016 backslapping party.

To keep claiming he 'can't trap a ball' is the exact kind of thing I'm talking about. You're the one making a straw man of my point around physical players by saying that. By talking him down and making out that what everyone can see is somehow nothing more than pub standard, which is effectively what you are saying.

Most people are saying he has been decent, not necessarily anything more, and encouraging fellow Spurs fans to get behind a Spurs player that is clearly improving and contributing, without contributing themselves to the negative and frankly embarrassing atmosphere around a specific player that probably contributed to his lack of confidence in the first place. (I don't agree with anything of what Danny Rose said to The Sun but if nothing else it proves that the players know exactly what is said by us - so he was terrible last year? No brick Sherlock. How about we get behind him as the other players considering the fact that the fans are behind the team and willing them forward is a big contributing factor to how well we've done - not exactly a massive surprise our home form was the best when our atmosphere was at its greatest)
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I'm not sure if 'most' people are saying he s decent?

Put a poll up see where we're at? Yes, no, undecided.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Kind of an important point in a logical debate though isn't it? That the manager wants him? That the obviously successful and universally adored manager wants him? Unless he is blind to something that some people here can see, that he can't?
Click to expand...
And not just him, but Deschamps, too. I suppose Deschamps also wants him for comedic purposes according to @NoLimits01 . I mean, it's only WC qualification that's at stake. What better time to call up comedy relief players.
 
I honesty do not understand why it is so hard for some of you to accept that there are people out there that do not share your views on this player.

If we think he is awful, has the close control of Bambi on ice and the tactical awareness of General Custer so what.

If we want to have a bit of ‘banter’ and take the mickey, so what.

Unless you are Sissoko, a friend or relative or even GHod forbid his agent I cannot see why you are so affected.

Surely it is not because you think we are not getting behind the team, if that’s it then (allow me to use a phrase that has been levelled at me) get a grip guys.

Yes, I understand that this is a forum and it’s here to encourage debate and discussion but this is not that, this is groups with polarised views talking at each other with no discourse taking place.

I’ve had a skim through other player threads and there has been disagreement over the perceived quality or usefulness of the player in each thread but they have never turned into what is happening here.

Just interested to know why, that’s all

#prepareforincomingfire
 
NoLimits01 said:
I honesty do not understand why it is so hard for some of you to accept that there are people out there that do not share your views on this player.

If we think he is awful, has the close control of Bambi on ice and the tactical awareness of General Custer so what.

If we want to have a bit of ‘banter’ and take the mickey, so what.

Unless you are Sissoko, a friend or relative or even GHod forbid his agent I cannot see why you are so affected.

Surely it is not because you think we are not getting behind the team, if that’s it then (allow me to use a phrase that has been levelled at me) get a grip guys.

Yes, I understand that this is a forum and it’s here to encourage debate and discussion but this is not that, this is groups with polarised views talking at each other with no discourse taking place.

I’ve had a skim through other player threads and there has been disagreement over the perceived quality or usefulness of the player in each thread but they have never turned into what is happening here.

Just interested to know why, that’s all

#prepareforincomingfire
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If the defence of him has in any way been over the top, then perhaps it is because the critism of him has been way over the top and that is from the very start.

I actually find it very encouraging, as it is people expressing what they are seeing themselves rather than giving into 'group think', Or simply remaining silent while others mock him mercilessly.
 
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NoLimits01 said:
I honesty do not understand why it is so hard for some of you to accept that there are people out there that do not share your views on this player.

If we think he is awful, has the close control of Bambi on ice and the tactical awareness of General Custer so what.

If we want to have a bit of ‘banter’ and take the mickey, so what.

Unless you are Sissoko, a friend or relative or even GHod forbid his agent I cannot see why you are so affected.

Surely it is not because you think we are not getting behind the team, if that’s it then (allow me to use a phrase that has been levelled at me) get a grip guys.

Yes, I understand that this is a forum and it’s here to encourage debate and discussion but this is not that, this is groups with polarised views talking at each other with no discourse taking place.

I’ve had a skim through other player threads and there has been disagreement over the perceived quality or usefulness of the player in each thread but they have never turned into what is happening here.

Just interested to know why, that’s all

#prepareforincomingfire
Click to expand...

It's quite honestly for me because being at the ground and hearing the absolute howls of derision Sissoko would get for one bad pass in an otherwise good game is frankly embarrassing. And then to come on here and read that he 'can't trap a ball'.

It creates a rubbish atmosphere around the ground and does nothing more than allow a few people to get a few back slaps from others on their row, all the while a player suffering from confidence issues continues to have the mickey taken out of him...by his own fans. It's just unsavoury.

And it's backwards. The Spurs fan group think suggests we'll sing the name of a non scoring 30M striker because he looks pained after another miss, but Sissoko deserves the mickey taking because his resting face looks a bit moody - despite the fact that anyone can see from his social media that he's quite a funny family man that just loves his kids.

For the record I'm not saying Soldado didn't deserve support, I'm simply saying that as fans I find it unsavoury to prioritise a bit of banter and high fiving around mickey taking one of our own players - even when he has blatantly improved and showing those criticisms up to be false - over actually getting behind all of the team. Because again, part of the reason we have done well is because it's one club pulling in the same direction, and the fans have a role to play in creating that positive atmosphere where players can flourish.
 
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BrainOfLevy said:
You can call me hysterical all you like but it's clear to anyone that reads this thread that I've said on multiple occasions he was absolutely terrible last season, and he's been no more than a 7/10 in this. He definitely wasn't as bad even in the first games this season as last, because last season his decision making was terrible, his touch and passing was shocking, and he did look like a shell of a football player particularly in those first few months. Then he made a few sub appearances and looked quite good (I'm thinking Swansea, Burnley at home), he also started against Hull at home and completely filled a role in the team that played well. Then the team picked up amazing form and rightly he couldn't get back in, until towards the end where he did a decent job at right wing back against Leceister.

His shockIng, terrible, awful performances came right at the start, in particular in the CL last year. As for this season, ever since the Juve game people noticed his improvement. It's just for a weeks people would look at a misplaced pass as proof he was still terrible, without looking at him objectively. He's been improving further the last few weeks but even from that Juve game he was a totally different player to those shockingly bad autumn months last year.

And again, I'm not being hysterical for arguing that a player that's starting regularly in a side in good form and that has just been called up by his national team is merely decent. What I find hysterical is the attempts to dig in to an unreasonable standard the performances of one of our own players when most of our fans and most of even the non Spurs affiliated media can see he has improved. It's like a few people are laughing in their own 2016 backslapping party.

To keep claiming he 'can't trap a ball' is the exact kind of thing I'm talking about. You're the one making a straw man of my point around physical players by saying that. By talking him down and making out that what everyone can see is somehow nothing more than pub standard, which is effectively what you are saying.

Most people are saying he has been decent, not necessarily anything more, and encouraging fellow Spurs fans to get behind a Spurs player that is clearly improving and contributing, without contributing themselves to the negative and frankly embarrassing atmosphere around a specific player that probably contributed to his lack of confidence in the first place. (I don't agree with anything of what Danny Rose said to The Sun but if nothing else it proves that the players know exactly what is said by us - so he was terrible last year? No brick Sherlock. How about we get behind him as the other players considering the fact that the fans are behind the team and willing them forward is a big contributing factor to how well we've done - not exactly a massive surprise our home form was the best when our atmosphere was at its greatest)
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Sissoko doesn't.

He tried to click on our thread about him but his index finger bumped into his middle finger and he ended up clicking on the ads for russian girlfriends at the top. He now has a very pretty wife though.
 
NoLimits01 said:
I honesty do not understand why it is so hard for some of you to accept that there are people out there that do not share your views on this player.

If we think he is awful, has the close control of Bambi on ice and the tactical awareness of General Custer so what.

If we want to have a bit of ‘banter’ and take the mickey, so what.

Unless you are Sissoko, a friend or relative or even GHod forbid his agent I cannot see why you are so affected.

Surely it is not because you think we are not getting behind the team, if that’s it then (allow me to use a phrase that has been levelled at me) get a grip guys.

Yes, I understand that this is a forum and it’s here to encourage debate and discussion but this is not that, this is groups with polarised views talking at each other with no discourse taking place.

I’ve had a skim through other player threads and there has been disagreement over the perceived quality or usefulness of the player in each thread but they have never turned into what is happening here.

Just interested to know why, that’s all

#prepareforincomingfire
Click to expand...
You don't have to be Sissoko or one in his immediate circle to be affected. It's about all those people who don't have the skills, but persevere to achieve something. And to slag these types of people off just shows immaturity. What if you @NoLimits01 were trying your best to achieve something, but had setbacks along the way because of your own personal limitations? Would you rather someone pointed out you're brick, or would you prefer some positive reinforcement recognizing your efforts and urging you along? Wouldn't that make you want to keep improving and try even harder? Especially if your efforts contributed in a positive way to the greater objective you were trying to achieve. So why should it be different for Sissoko? Why not recognize his improvement and cheer him along so he can try even harder to improve more, rather than post the types of demoralizing comments some of you guys do?

And yes, I know that he doesn't read GG and rely on us for his positive reinforcement fix, but as @BrainOfLevy said, this negativity is in the stands too and I'm pretty sure on social media that he sees, so it's all part of the same attitude, regardless of where it gets expressed.
 
alekaras said:
You don't have to be Sissoko or one in his immediate circle to be affected. It's about all those people who don't have the skills, but persevere to achieve something. And to slag these types of people off just shows immaturity. What if you @NoLimits01 were trying your best to achieve something, but had setbacks along the way because of your own personal limitations? Would you rather someone pointed out you're brick, or would you prefer some positive reinforcement recognizing your efforts and urging you along? Wouldn't that make you want to keep improving and try even harder? Especially if your efforts contributed in a positive way to the greater objective you were trying to achieve. So why should it be different for Sissoko? Why not recognize his improvement and cheer him along so he can try even harder to improve more, rather than post the types of demoralizing comments some of you guys do?

And yes, I know that he doesn't read GG and rely on us for his positive reinforcement fix, but as @BrainOfLevy said, this negativity is in the stands too and I'm pretty sure on social media that he sees, so it's all part of the same attitude, regardless of where it gets expressed.
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I wouldn’t and don’t give a damn what strangers think of me full stop
 
His attitude, aptitude and application are all showing improvements but still has work to do to reach the level he's capable of.

But he's doing better this season. There. Nicely summed up. Let's all enjoy This Sporting Life a little, now, shall we?


Until he screws up.
 
alekaras said:
You don't have to be Sissoko or one in his immediate circle to be affected. It's about all those people who don't have the skills, but persevere to achieve something. And to slag these types of people off just shows immaturity. What if you @NoLimits01 were trying your best to achieve something, but had setbacks along the way because of your own personal limitations? Would you rather someone pointed out you're brick, or would you prefer some positive reinforcement recognizing your efforts and urging you along? Wouldn't that make you want to keep improving and try even harder? Especially if your efforts contributed in a positive way to the greater objective you were trying to achieve. So why should it be different for Sissoko? Why not recognize his improvement and cheer him along so he can try even harder to improve more, rather than post the types of demoralizing comments some of you guys do?

And yes, I know that he doesn't read GG and rely on us for his positive reinforcement fix, but as @BrainOfLevy said, this negativity is in the stands too and I'm pretty sure on social media that he sees, so it's all part of the same attitude, regardless of where it gets expressed.
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Lovely sentiments......but if you want everyone to follow this path (in life), you got a hell of a job on your hands.

Forever and a day mate.
 
scaramanga said:
It means that if there is some kind of mystical, "only a pro could possibly know" knowledge (hint: there isn't) then his is massively out of date.
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What about if he has done his coaching badges since he retired from professional football? What about if since doing his coaching badges he has continued to be involved in lots of refreshers and seminars? (AFAIA he hasn't been involved in coaching since he quit football by the way, but what if he had?)

Do you feel that a person who has taken coaching qualifications qualifies as having a better idea about the game than you scara?
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Lovely sentiments......but if you want everyone to follow this path (in life), you got a hell of a job on your hands.

Forever and a day mate.
Click to expand...

I guess that's what it comes down to isn't it? I've tried as much as possible to tie the idea of fans being positive about Sissoko to the success of the team generally, because I'm sure we can all agree that positivity around the ground is much better for player's confidence and the atmosphere in general. But from the other side comes a shrug. We don't care, we just want a bit of banter.

And as you say, there really is no stopping that. But the reason I've been so passionate about the defence of Sissoko is because if I can do anything to negate the awful atmosphere around him, along with a few others, then I feel like in some way I've contributed. Ultimately, Sissoko continuing to get better will be the only answer to it, but I just veer on to the side of when he actually is playing quite well, he doesn't deserve the minor faults to be extrapolated into major ones, just because he was terrible last year. We can all contribute to speeding up his comfort process and getting him into better form IMV.
 
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