Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Finney Is Back]

3G's stats are this. Poch is useless.
TBF, he has taken us as far as he can. Sometimes when you are at a company you get bored and wish you were doing your job elsewhere for more money for more lunches, for more exciting corporate events, with better colleagues and more exciting owners. Cant blame him for looking elsewhere but you certainly can blame him for the results. Managers need to move on, itls the way of the world.
Time for a new fresh approach, with some of the older players leaving. We are never going to win the league, not with City and Liverpool there. That is a fact. Just take it that we will always be a 3 to 6 placed team and deal with it. We have hit our ceiling, will never be better so should just hover around the CL places.

Nothing wrong with being a medium size broker, sometimes you steal clients off the big boys but you can never really compete with the big brokers unless you get bought out and become a big player. Spurs are very much like that. Just have to accept it and deal with it.

Bye bye Poch.

City are off limits due to their Sugar Daddy status but there is no reason in the World why we cannot elevate ourselves to the level of Liverpool. It was only last season that they became better than us. We really aren't too far away even now. Our ridiculous transfer windows in season 2018/19 put us back massively and I think the full impact of that had a delayed reaction (especially as we have effectively only been able to use one of our 3 new buys this season). IMO we are only one or two good transfer windows away from being at Liverpool's level.

We need a new right back and holding midfield player asap (January if we can).
After that it's probably a new left back, another centre half and a further top talent wide attacker (perhaps that can even be Clarke?)
Icing on the cake would be a maverick creator like Dybala, but I don't even think that is necessary.

 

[glorygloryeze]

All distraction.

Do we, or do we not, have a team/squad capable of playing football far better than we currently are?

If the answer is yes (and I believe it is) then its a failure of management. The rest is noise.

Depends on what you call "far better"...if you mean far better than the last 18 months, then maybe not given we haven't really addressed the issues that raised their head in April 2018.

I would also say 'management' includes the board/Levy too...

 

[Finney Is Back]

N'Dombele is a lot better defensively than you appear to think he is. I agree that Dier would be good in there, but there's no need for a traditional holder in that formation - it's one of the main objectives of it in the first place.

He looks to me as though he is often wrong side of his player, he also doesn't immediately track his opposing player's run (not sure if because he doesn't see it or can't be bothered?) he also doesn't look the best tackler to me (seems to get squared up and dangles out a leg). I think he looks excellent in an attacking sense and would benefit from having a defensive minded player alongside/behind him.

 

[fernadez]

Apparently it’s a deep midfielder
Flanked slightly further forward by two other midfielders and one up top making a diamond shape

I’ve said for ages it’s bullocks as we play 3CMs there and it’s much more a 4-3-3 with the only width coming from full backs

Everyone else watching the game yesterday disagrees. The positional maps from last nights game disagree.

Alli was central behind the pair upfront. How is that 4-3-3?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Funny thing with Son is it’s since he became undroppable that performances have slowly declined, this squad and Poch peak was 15/16 and 16/17 Son was a squad player, I don’t think he is good for the balance of the team, early in the summer there was a topic on here about this seasons team and in and outs, I said then I thought we should cash in on Son and got shot down, I stand by it even more now, he is inconsistent, goes from world beater to no better than Andros Townsend, and causes too many issues in terms of balance of the squad, this bloody diamond is all about getting him in the team as the most advanced striker, it’s hurting Kane, with his presence in the team Alli has never looked the same player which then has a knock on effect on Eriksen.

I will say it again unless Son is happy to sit on the bench as Kane’s backup I would sell him.

I couldn’t disagree more. Son has been our most consistent attacking player other than Kane for 3 seasons. More consistent than Eriksen, Alli and Lamela. You could argue he should get more goals but this “inconsistent” tag get a a bit grating. If he’s inconsistent then every other player in the squad in the last 3 years has been also.

 

[Finney Is Back]

When that went in, the writing was on the wall. It was so poor defensively, the way we sat back, were not in a good shape and basically let them take control. And the detail too. Weak clearances etc.

To be fair to Poch he didn't really have a choice with Aurier. He wasn't awful, but is not a great defender. Sanchez might have had more cool in defence against a very clinical Bayern.

Sanchez at right back? Please GHod no.... never again!!!!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Everyone else watching the game yesterday disagrees. The positional maps from last nights game disagree.

Alli was central behind the pair upfront. How is that 4-3-3?

Because the NDombele and and sissoko go wide generally level with winks

It has improved though

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Depends on what you call "far better"...if you mean far better than the last 18 months, then maybe not given we haven't really addressed the issues that raised their head in April 2018.

I would also say 'management' includes the board/Levy too...

We have been brick for a full season now. And we all know this very group of players has it in them to be considerably better than they are now.

Last season Im happy to accept, I think there are many mitigating circumstances as to how and why we struggled.

This season? They just arent there. The team/players/squad we have now should be doing MUCH better than it is. And that comes down to the day to day training and management of the group. Which is Poch.

Regardless of board meddling, support, lack of... Poch should be doing better.

Now, seperate to that, yeah - sure - take issue with the board as well, Im sure there are valid things to raise. But they cant be excuses for Poch not doing his day job, IMO.

 

[fernadez]

Because the NDombele and and sissoko go wide generally level with winks

It has improved though

 

[elltrev]

I'm not convinced that using freeze frames are much use in describing our formations - especially when the ball goes wide and everyone is moving across to cover.

What I do know is that Winks spent a lot of time on his own in the middle through both the first and second halves, and Aurier was pretty much on his own for the whole match too. That didn't happen when we played the way we did a couple of years ago.

If I’m honest, that sounds a bit like ignoring the evidence... I think those freeze frames clearly show what I saw when I was there last night - that in the second half we switched to a 4-2-3-1 / 4-4-2. I’m not saying that means that Winks or Aurier always has great cover, but actually it looks decent enough in those freeze frames - which is when the goals were scored.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We have been brick for a full season now. And we all know this very group of players has it in them to be considerably better than they are now.

Last season Im happy to accept, I think there are many mitigating circumstances as to how and why we struggled.

This season? They just arent there. The team/players/squad we have now should be doing MUCH better than it is. And that comes down to the day to day training and management of the group. Which is Poch.

Regardless of board meddling, support, lack of... Poch should be doing better.

Now, seperate to that, yeah - sure - take issue with the board as well, Im sure there are valid things to raise. But they cant be excuses for Poch not doing his day job, IMO.

I think there are still a few mitigating circumstances (only one of our new three players being available for instance and also several players that the manager wanted out still being at the club.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think there are still a few mitigating circumstances (only one of our new three players being available for instance and also several players that the manager wanted out still being at the club.

Not for the level we are playing at, IMO.

Things are less than ideal but we had players with a full pre season under their belts, fit and on form (Kane looking better than for a couple of years IMO) and the tools for Poch to be putting out teams playing far better than we are.

With then the prospect of introducing the new talent, phasing out the old...

Regardless of the complications, we should be doing better. Our current form smacks of a manager who has completely dropped the ball, IMHO.

Question is whether or not he can pick it up and get us back to our best?

Right now I really have doubts about that.

 

[glorygloryeze]

We have been brick for a full season now. And we all know this very group of players has it in them to be considerably better than they are now.

Last season Im happy to accept, I think there are many mitigating circumstances as to how and why we struggled.

This season? They just arent there. The team/players/squad we have now should be doing MUCH better than it is. And that comes down to the day to day training and management of the group. Which is Poch.

Regardless of board meddling, support, lack of... Poch should be doing better.

Now, seperate to that, yeah - sure - take issue with the board as well, Im sure there are valid things to raise. But they cant be excuses for Poch not doing his day job, IMO.

Ok, i'm going to play devil's advocate a bit. So let's look into the team and how they are playing. Can you name more than 3 players who are playing considerably worse than they 'can'? If you do, can you name the last time they played at their 'peak'?

My contention is that physically and footballing ability-wise most have reached a wall, hence Poch trying out new formations etc to mitigate...

 

[scaramanga]

If I’m honest, that sounds a bit like ignoring the evidence... I think those freeze frames clearly show what I saw when I was there last night - that in the second half we switched to a 4-2-3-1 / 4-4-2. I’m not saying that means that Winks or Aurier always has great cover, but actually it looks decent enough in those freeze frames - which is when the goals were scored.

The movement either side of those frames (admittedly from memory) was fairly frantic to get back into shape though wasn't it? I don't recall us being in a shape and adjusting, I recall us scrambling back into shape and chasing them around the pitch.

All with the obvious caveat of the frailties of memory.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ok, i'm going to play devil's advocate a bit. So let's look into the team and how they are playing. Can you name more than 3 players who are playing considerably worse than they 'can'? If you do, can you name the last time they played at their 'peak'?

My contention is that physically and footballing ability-wise most have reached a wall, hence Poch trying out new formations etc to mitigate...

As I said, Im happy to write last season off. There was a catalogue of mitigating factors as to why people were out of form and lacking fitness. It was a desperate, backs to the wall effort all season.

This season? No such excuses.

Who is playing worse than they can? Pretty well everyone, really.

Why? Well thats the million dollar question.

I dont actually know what "reached a wall" even means. If it is to suppose they have reached their limit/potential, that doesnt explain the fact they have metaphorically reached the wall, turned around, and run about 50ft away from it.

THAT, imo, comes down to management.

Clearly something is lacking, in the leadership they are offered, in the motivation they are given, in the training they are going through - in the complete lack of shape (or sense) they are supposed to be playing in...

They look lost to me. Unprepared. Confused. Disenfranchised. That only comes from the man in charge.

 

[glorygloryeze]

As I said, Im happy to write last season off. There was a catalogue of mitigating factors as to why people were out of form and lacking fitness. It was a desperate, backs to the wall effort all season.

This season? No such excuses.

Who is playing worse than they can? Pretty well everyone, really.

Why? Well thats the million dollar question.

I dont actually know what "reached a wall" even means. If it is to suppose they have reached their limit/potential, that doesnt explain the fact they have metaphorically reached the wall, turned around, and run about 50ft away from it.

THAT, imo, comes down to management.

Clearly something is lacking, in the leadership they are offered, in the motivation they are given, in the training they are going through - in the complete lack of shape (or sense) they are supposed to be playing in...

They look lost to me. Unprepared. Confused. Disenfranchised. That only comes from the man in charge.

Yes, my worry is that "reached the wall" in this case is that Poch's main tactical gameplan is Krypton Factor style football, i.e. "out-finessing" the opposition through pressing and a higher form of "running about a bit". That will always have a shelf-life without more 'smart' tactical ammunition to go alongside or even instead of
However, that is partly tempered by times when he has switched up the gameplan and sat deep, hit teams on the counter and/or even relied purely on set-pieces to get results.
So i think of those occasions and think well actually maybe he does have more strings to his bows.
Which is why i think back to when he called for the club to "act differently" and yet they doubled-down and did nothing to how we shot ourselves in the foot.

I look at the players and think: apart from, maybe, Kane who has developed their game further since the end of 2017/2018? Son, Moura et al are still doing the same things they always did and our rivals now know how to combat them. That is certainly a failing of Poch's coaching for sure, though again more strings to his bow would help mitigate that somewhat...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Ultimately @nayimfromthehalfwayline i'm actually not sure given our squad if another 'top' manager could actually get more out of these players, save for the new ones added in the summer.

That's the worry and we'll know soon enough if Levy thinks the same or not...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Can anyone remember if/when we last lined up as a 4-3-3?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Yes, my worry is that "reached the wall" in this case is that Poch's main tactical gameplan is Krypton Factor style football, i.e. "out-finessing" the opposition through pressing and a higher form of "running about a bit". That will always have a shelf-life without more 'smart' tactical ammunition to go alongside or even instead of
However, that is partly tempered by times when he has switched up the gameplan and sat deep, hit teams on the counter and/or even relied purely on set-pieces to get results.
So i think of those occasions and think well actually maybe he does have more strings to his bows.
Which is why i think back to when he called for the club to "act differently" and yet they doubled-down and did nothing to how we shot ourselves in the foot.

I look at the players and think: apart from, maybe, Kane who has developed their game further since the end of 2017/2018? Son, Moura et al are still doing the same things they always did and our rivals now know how to combat them. That is certainly a failing of Poch's coaching for sure, though again more strings to his bow would help mitigate that somewhat...

Sounds like you kind of agree with me?

I dont actually have an issue with Pochs standard template over his time here. The high intensity press, the double pivot, the three behind Kane - its all worked well.

Even when teams know what to expect from us, it doesnt mean they have been able to deal with it.

And as you say, there have been times Poch has tweaked things to great effect (and disastrous).

Right now? It really looks to me less like the players under performing and more like the manager just giving up.

Ultimately @nayimfromthehalfwayline i'm actually not sure given our squad if another 'top' manager could actually get more out of these players, save for the new ones added in the summer.

That's the worry and we'll know soon enough if Levy thinks the same or not...

Well if things carry on as they are, maybe we will find out soon....

I think some players may well have reached their peak in terms of development. I dont see Rose, Dier, Sissoko, Eriksen, Aurier, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Lloris or Lamela actually becoming better footballers, to be honest.

That said, why cant they still come together - in the right system - with the right attitude - as a top side?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Sounds like you kind of agree with me?

I dont actually have an issue with Pochs standard template over his time here. The high intensity press, the double pivot, the three behind Kane - its all worked well.

Even when teams know what to expect from us, it doesnt mean they have been able to deal with it.

And as you say, there have been times Poch has tweaked things to great effect (and disastrous).

Right now? It really looks to me less like the players under performing and more like the manager just giving up.



Well if things carry on as they are, maybe we will find out soon....

I think some players may well have reached their peak in terms of development. I dont see Rose, Dier, Sissoko, Eriksen, Aurier, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Lloris or Lamela actually becoming better footballers, to be honest.

That said, why cant they still come together - in the right system - with the right attitude - as a top side?

Yeah, the double pivot, high intensity press, Kane etc indeed works well. But players have a physical shelf-life: the physical demands of such a system man the system itself has a shelf life - unless you buy to replenish the options for the system at the right time.

That time was summer 2018