Maggie

[The Moonlit Knight]

Without ever gaining a majority of the votes cast. She was far from 'very popular'. Just lucky that her opposition devolved into utter chaos at precisely the right moment, and that a war she could have prevented came along at just the right time to prop up her election chances.

Incidentally that 'war-time leader' trick has been subsequently used by a range of figures from George Dubya ("I'm a war-time president....I make decisions with war on my mind") to Tony Blair. Seems war is now an election gimmick, and the lives of citizens are not indeed paramount in a country's thinking.

What are your personal experiences remembering her? When I lived in the UK she was very popular among people I conversed with. For sure she wasn't popular in certain areas of the country, but from what I could make out they were socialist areas anyway so she was never going to be popular there no matter what she did.

Thing I remember her most for was actually when she threatened to pull England from playing international football if hooliganism continued. Glad she didn't because hammering England at Euro 88 is one of my fondest memories :lol: We won't discuss Euro96 :-#

 

[Craig_J]

Whether she did or not is immaterial to the public purse anyway, tax rates are set according to what the political persuasion of the party in power, taxes won't go up or down regardless of whether they spend £10 or £10M, nor would they invest it in local or national services or infrastructure so it's an irrelevance.

Personally I don't think she deserves all the pomp and ceremony but the financial element of the argument against a ceremonial funeral is a red herring.

She also claimed £350,000 off the state between 2006 (or 05? Can't remember) - 2011.

Bloody welfare scrounger! The irony.:lol:

There's a list of what her funeral could pay for:

- 320 fire officers
- 272 secondary school teachers
- 322 nurses
- 269 nurses
- four months worth of state contribution to the monarchy
- 44 libaries
- 177,777 jobseekers' allowance claimants (bearing in mind people say they cost the state!!)
- 1,199 students' annual tuition fees
- Two years of UK foreign aid to Iraq
- 152 MPs' basic salaries
- 60% of a Trident missile
- 11,111 public health funerals

Are just some of the highlights!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2013/apr/16/margaret-thatcher-funeral-10-million

 

[DubaiSpur]

What are your personal experiences remembering her? When I lived in the UK she was very popular among people I conversed with. For sure she wasn't popular in certain areas of the country, but from what I could make out they were socialist areas anyway so she was never going to be popular there no matter what she did.

Thing I remember her most for was actually when she threatened to pull England from playing international football if hooliganism continued. Glad she didn't because hammering England at Euro 88 is one of my fondest memories :lol: We won't discuss Euro96 :-#

Italia '90 had my dad in tears. England as a team were better then than they can ever hope to be now.

As for the first bit, I have next to no personal recollection. Loads of people I know, however, do. Relatives, friends, relatives' friends.....and most of them agree that Thatcher was the worst thing that could have happened to a Britain searching for a moderate solution to its problems.

See, I have people I 'conversed' with too. What counts is public opinion, and YouGov's poll on Thatcher reveals that 47 percent of (voting-age)respondents categorised their reactions to her as either 'moderate dislike' or 'severe dislike'.

Half the population doesn't sound like just being confined to 'certain areas of the country'.

 

[thfcsteff]

Reading the last couple of pages have convinced me of the following.


1) Some people only see economics, not humanity.
2) The 'leftie' name-calling is just sad.
3) Most people commenting on Thatcherss legacy as a positive did not live THROUGH it.
4) Gordinho's story from a reporter pal is by no means an isolated one.
5) If people do not genuinely understand that changing the way a country has operated for decades upon decades in 11 years of sudden, abrupt, unapologetic and uncaring leadership is SOCIOPATHIC, then it is my turn to feel sorry for the human race.


As for the 'she was elected for three terms in a row' see 'greedy sheeple led to the altar of worship via trumped up jingoism' for the reason that happened.

None of her 'supporters' seems to fully comprehend the methods she employed. Here's a test; how many of you know what the letters SPG stand for?

 

[thfcsteff]

I'll answer in bold-face within your post mate...

Regardless of these facts,

That would be my first complaint. You cannot reconcile that comment IMO!


you have to lay the majority of the blame for the conflict on the Argentinians. It was their politicians that started the dispute, and they were the first ones to act militarily.


No mate, you need to read up on it. Thatcher offered talks, she stepped forth and offered them. They waited. And waited. They then sent word that they would consider the offer, and revocation, of such 'talks' as a sign that WE were preparing to go to war. Carrington informed her of this. She ignored it and gave him the shove under the guise that he had 'failed to see it coming and warn her'...she fudged him off. Her biggest genuine political brain! Who understood foreign policy!


Maybe she did make a u-turn with respect to diplomatic discussion. So what? They are sovereign british property to which no foreign power has a valid claim. Why should she have had to negotiate with them at all in the first place...? Because their politician was trying to win favor with his electorate by stirring up some nationalist fervour over the Falklands.

No no, SHE DID IT TOO!


If she took advantage of the situation that was not of her making, then I cannot find too much fault in that. Remember, these are self-serving egotistic politicians we are talking about, not living saints and deities.

Arrrggghhhh! SHE COULD HAVE PREVENTED IT! As for the last bit, I wish you'd remind some other people around her of that!!!! To be discussed again, possibly @ Roni Size

 

[thfcsteff]

Personally I don't believe it, for the simple fact that plenty of mines remained open after the miners strike.

It's not like they closed all the mines in 1985. in 1995 we were still producing 50 million tonnes per year. It doesn't make sense to me that a lot of the mines would stay open, yet this mine in Nottinghamshire that was supposedly still profitable would be closed.

Maybe the government got their sums wrong, maybe your brother in laws father did, but I don't believe a profitable coal mine would be closed just for the sake of it. I mean, what did the government have to gain by doing that?

The switching of a country to another type of economy and export plus the way to smash trade unions. It was her dream to kill unions. This was one of the fastest ways.

Did unions need reform? Yes. Did they need total annihilation? No. Could there have been middle ground? Yes. Is this 'limp-wristed lefty talk'? No.

 

[Modric THFC]

Wasnt a particular fan of the women, ignoring her politics she was a homophobe who raised a racist and mark thatcher, but tomorrow her funeral is gonna be milked for all its worth by Cameron and the Conservative Party in an attempt to get a boost in opinions polls whilst the economy goes to brick.

They should have let her have the private funeral she no doubt would have wanted, rather than the indignity of having two sides trying to score political points whilst she's laid to rest.

 

[Skinhead in a Suit]

To be discussed, possibly @ Roni Size

Got my ticket today

 

[Gordinho]

She also claimed £350,000 off the state between 2006 (or 05? Can't remember) - 2011.

Bloody welfare scrounger! The irony.:lol:

There's a list of what her funeral could pay for:

- 320 fire officers
- 272 secondary school teachers
- 322 nurses
- 269 nurses
- four months worth of state contribution to the monarchy
- 44 libaries
- 177,777 jobseekers' allowance claimants (bearing in mind people say they cost the state!!)
- 1,199 students' annual tuition fees
- Two years of UK foreign aid to Iraq
- 152 MPs' basic salaries
- 60% of a Trident missile
- 11,111 public health funerals

Are just some of the highlights!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2013/apr/16/margaret-thatcher-funeral-10-million

Craig, I accept those figures with out question but my point was that regardless of whatever they could pay for with £10M by not holding her funeral they still wouldn't. In short they haven't diverted £10M from another cause, they've just stumped up £10M.

 

[Baleforce]

exactly, its not like they have sacked 320 fireman to free the money up

why are nurses listed twice with different numbers by the way?

 

[spitshine]

She also claimed £350,000 off the state between 2006 (or 05? Can't remember) - 2011.

Bloody welfare scrounger! The irony.:lol:

There's a list of what her funeral could pay for:

- 320 fire officers
- 272 secondary school teachers
- 322 nurses
- 269 nurses
- four months worth of state contribution to the monarchy
- 44 libaries
- 177,777 jobseekers' allowance claimants (bearing in mind people say they cost the state!!)
- 1,199 students' annual tuition fees
- Two years of UK foreign aid to Iraq
- 152 MPs' basic salaries
- 60% of a Trident missile
- 11,111 public health funerals

Are just some of the highlights!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2013/apr/16/margaret-thatcher-funeral-10-million

Surely this argument is only valid if the intention was to do the above? Hypothetically speaking - if the government came out and said, we will hire all these British nurses and the thatcher family will have to pay their own funeral costs - i doubt many would disagree

 

[Libero]

Reading the last couple of pages have convinced me of the following.


1) Some people only see economics, not humanity.
2) The 'leftie' name-calling is just sad.
3) Most people commenting on Thatcherss legacy as a positive did not live THROUGH it.
4) Gordinho's story from a reporter pal is by no means an isolated one.
5) If people do not genuinely understand that changing the way a country has operated for decades upon decades in 11 years of sudden, abrupt, unapologetic and uncaring leadership is SOCIOPATHIC, then it is my turn to feel sorry for the human race.


As for the 'she was elected for three terms in a row' see 'greedy sheeple led to the altar of worship via trumped up jingoism' for the reason that happened.

None of her 'supporters' seems to fully comprehend the methods she employed. Here's a test; how many of you know what the letters SPG stand for?

I know where you are going with that one Steff but the SPG were established in 1961 and disbanded for the TSG in 1987. Saying that too, one of the biggest controversies involving the SPG happened in Southall in April 1979 - Before she was elected!

I am well aware of the shortcomings of the SPG/TSG in terms of heavy handedness, sus law although that was repealed by Thatcher in 1981, targetting of groups by profiling etc but these are all things that would have been occurring throughout the previous administrations too so to my mind it would be unfair and a slight twisting of reality to suggest that the SPG raised their game more under Maggie.

How ever, I do enjoy your posts on this subject as well as football related matters, someone with which a good debate can be had.

 

[edgey-the-yid]

This whole "us tax payers are footing the bill" argument is hollow. Have we all paid an extra 10p in taxes this last week for the funeral? Of course not. As said above, the money hssnt been diverted from other causes either. And if you wanna moan about wasted tax payers cash then moan bout the 50m+ per DAY we waste on EU subscription.... fudge me you could have a country full of nurses and fireman and whatever else is on that list!!

 

[AuroRaman]

The Voice costs 24 million to make...

 

[Sheffield Spur]

The switching of a country to another type of economy and export plus the way to smash trade unions. It was her dream to kill unions. This was one of the fastest ways.

Did unions need reform? Yes. Did they need total annihilation? No. Could there have been middle ground? Yes. Is this 'limp-wristed lefty talk'? No.

So utterly spot-on, its frightening. 100%.

Thatcher wanted to remove threats to her. The biggest threats were unions, and the biggest of all the miners union, the NUM. She used 'economic arguments' (in varying degree, untrue) to justify such drastic action to the voter. The way to remove the threat was to remove the industry, and that is what happened. The miners, who knew the likelihood of alternative employment was scant, were fighting for their livelihoods and their future, not to bring down the Conservative Government.

Scargill may, personally, have had a wider agenda, but that was the main thrust of the reason Joe Average miner went on strike. His livelihood.

Before that she lied to the steelworkers - pre-election - and promised them she would support the steel industry. She then let the industry go to the wall.

She let the apprenticeship system go, and introduced the Youth Training Scheme (now gone). So vastly increased numbers of young people then went into university. A tenfold increase over the 1980's. We now have universities pumping out graduates, and in many geographical areas, nowhere near the number of graduate jobs to support that.

Now the apprenticeship system is trying to make a comeback; where? Our manufacturing instry went down the tubes, or abroad.

 

[DHSF]

Thatchers daughter is quite hot - I think its her daughter anyways

 

[Sheffield Spur]

Reading the last couple of pages have convinced me of the following.


1) Some people only see economics, not humanity.
2) The 'leftie' name-calling is just sad.
3) Most people commenting on Thatcherss legacy as a positive did not live THROUGH it.
4) Gordinho's story from a reporter pal is by no means an isolated one.
5) If people do not genuinely understand that changing the way a country has operated for decades upon decades in 11 years of sudden, abrupt, unapologetic and uncaring leadership is SOCIOPATHIC, then it is my turn to feel sorry for the human race.


As for the 'she was elected for three terms in a row' see 'greedy sheeple led to the altar of worship via trumped up jingoism' for the reason that happened.

None of her 'supporters' seems to fully comprehend the methods she employed. Here's a test; how many of you know what the letters SPG stand for?

100% on the money. Again.

Point 3 is just about the most important; if you live in the S/E and are under 30/35, or if you have just lived in the S/E, you didn't see or feel the impact.

 

[Libero]

100% on the money. Again.

Point 3 is just about the most important; if you live in the S/E and are under 30/35, or if you have just lived in the S/E, you didn't see or feel the impact.

Equally, a number of people, probably greater in number than those that are mentioned by yourself have jumped on a bandwagon they know nothing about or lived through either. They have listened to rants at the dinner table and have made their mind up from there. I mean really, 20 yr olds joining a party to celebrate her death? Its actually more macaronic than the actual act of the party.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I think an unstated legacy of Thatcher is that public trust in the Tories, is very low. They should have crushed Labour in the last election, but didn't. Instead they have become saddled with the Lib Dem's in a minority government. The public realise that the Tories are only about the economic bottom line and damn the consequences, as all tories are emotionally and socially stunted This is the policy pathway, the Conservative Party would seek to implement again, if they ever got the chance. I doubt the public will fall for it however...once bitten, twice shy.

 

[Sheffield Spur]

Heard an interesting tale last night which I'm sure some will dismiss as lies. I was out with brother in law, his father was a journalist with the FT at the time of the miners strike and was asked to do a piece on a mine in Nottingham, rather than accept all the facts supplied to him by the government he carried out his own investigation. Rather than the mine being worked out there were three rich seams still left and possibly more, enough for many years of profitable production. He was told to remove this from his finished article, when he refused the story was dropped on orders from above, he later found out that as a direct result of the story the security services opened a file on him.

Nazi Germany in the 1930's: control the media and you control the people. I think Margaret was listening to this too.

Thatcher used Saachi and Saachi for election purposes. She used the facilities available, paying a packet for the prior, and I bet that she used and included all the facilities available. Government departments are a tool of government and government policy, and the security services are one too. Dirty Tricks Dept? Politicians never use that, do they Mr Nixon?

I have heard that there was (is) plenty of coal seams in certain UK areas. A few private mines more recently have just extracted the easiest to get, without putting funds in to R&D to get more. I think they have now closed. Maltby was one? A quick buck.

In the miners strike, extra Old Bill were brought in (flown in by Freddie Laker, in some cases, IIRC, from the south coast) to bolster numbers. I have heard on very good authority that some military units were too, clothed in police uniforms.


"when he refused the story was dropped on orders from above" Ever heard of the 'D Notice'. Where Government can insist by that, to stop publication?

I believe the story Very easily.