Kyle Walker

[braineclipse]

Surely enough people have commented by now for you to at least get the idea it's not just one rogue opinion. Even a number of his defenders concede he is prone to going awol and brainfarts. We are all Spurs fans so we don't just go round making things up off the top of our heads.

A real difference between your answer and Jurgen's answer.

If you feel that there is some idea that I'm just not getting, or that I'm accusing you or others of making things up by asking for examples then we're clearly just talking past each other and there's no benefit to continue the discussion at this point.

I'm not going to comment on a game I didn't watch, but I have no problems accepting that he wasn't good against Ukraine based on reports and what has been said here. My point all along has been one about frequencies of errors.

 

[Spur of the moment]

A real difference between your answer and Jurgen's answer.

If you feel that there is some idea that I'm just not getting, or that I'm accusing you or others of making things up by asking for examples then we're clearly just talking past each other and there's no benefit to continue the discussion at this point.

I'm not going to comment on a game I didn't watch, but I have no problems accepting that he wasn't good against Ukraine based on reports and what has been said here. My point all along has been one about frequencies of errors.

Correct me if I am mistaken but the thrust of your argument appears to be that Walker has been showing significant improvement recently and is less prone to going awol or rash fouls. All I can say is I haven't especially noticed.

As Jurgen says, no one keeps a diary of every incident, however as a team, whether with or without KW, it's true we are conceding fewer goals, so I will be watching more closely from now on in the hope you are right and I am wrong.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Correct me if I am mistaken but the thrust of your argument appears to be that Walker has been showing significant improvement recently and is less prone to going awol or rash fouls. All I can say is I haven't especially noticed.

As Jurgen says, no one keeps a diary of every incident, however as a team, whether with or without KW, it's true we are conceding fewer goals, so I will be watching more closely from now on in the hope you are right and I am wrong.

Correction: Meant to say I agree his overall play has improved but I haven't especially noticed any great improvement in his tendency to lose his man or commit rash fouls.

 

[braineclipse]

Correct me if I am mistaken but the thrust of your argument appears to be that Walker has been showing significant improvement recently and is less prone to going awol or rash fouls. All I can say is I haven't especially noticed.

As Jurgen says, no one keeps a diary of every incident, however as a team, whether with or without KW, it's true we are conceding fewer goals, so I will be watching more closely from now on in the hope you are right and I am wrong.

You're not mistaken. Although probably more of a gradual improvement than a sudden recent improvement.

Although if you consider what happened against West Ham going awol then we just have completely different understandings of what a full back should do in our team so we obviously won't have the same impression on if he goes awol often or not.

 

[scaramanga]

I'm getting very few responses for my questions about Walker. If I asked the same for Soldado, assuming that someone claimed that he's been missing chances regularly, it seems I would get more examples given...

He was poor for a longish stretch of last season, to me not surprising for a young player that broke into the team the season before that. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. His form dipped, but personally I thought he made a lot of similar mistakes in his first season, but that those mistakes largely went unpunished. I argued as much during that first season. As some of his mistakes were punished in his second season it's no surprise that his confidence was dented and that his performances suffered, again we've seen it all before. A dip in form followed, yes, but not a surprising one or a dip in form that indicated a dip in quality or ability.

For me his last couple of months of last season and his first couple of months this season have been his best by far. Much better than his first season by the way, still wondering if you agree with that or not?

I agree that it's about consistency, but I think people's expectations in that regard are perhaps a bit too high for a young player like Walker. I remember a time when fans of many clubs were saying that Gary Neville wasn't good enough for United, or that Zabaleta wasn't good enough for Emirates Marketing Project, or that Glen Johnson was barely good enough for the Premier League. They all took considerable time to become consistent performers. People seem to compare Walker to some of the best, finished product, full backs around. Not surprisingly he comes up short. As a club I think we depend on developing players into top class players due to our financial constraints, modern full backs have to be fairly complete players, no surprise to me that developing a top class full back takes time.

These days I'm more worried about Dawson than about Walker. And I never hid that I worried about Walker during his first or second season at the club. To me an indication of how far Walker has come already.

I agree with your point on Walker but have to pull you up on one thing:

They were right about Johnson. Bar a couple of MOTD highlight goals he's not a good player at all.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree with your point on Walker but have to pull you up on one thing:

They were right about Johnson. Bar a couple of MOTD highlight goals he's not a good player at all.

I rate him higher than you do, but it's not really important to this discussion.

At the very least he's turned into a much better player than he was in his early twenties imo.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I really don't get some of the Kyle Walker hate. He is a huge asset to this club. He's not the only defender who makes mistakes, yet he seems to get a lot more stick than anyone else whenever he does. Fine - those were massive ****-ups against Chelsea at home last season and Liverpool away, but those kinds of mistakes are few and far between.

Sometimes he gets caught out of position. Name me a full-back that doesn't. I'd much rather have a full-back that gets caught out of position 30 times over a season but is fast enough to get back and recover in time on 28 of them over a full-back that gets caught out of position 5 times over the season and every single one of them leads to an opposition chance.

I remember people saying Ashley Cole was too gung-ho when he was Walker's age. He used to be a striker at youth team level and he'd never be able to shake those attacking instincts and learn to stay back and in position. He didn't turn out to be all that bad did he?

Cole is much better defensively than Walker, better going forward too.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Yeah, the pace thing is a very big if. It's probably his best attribute, take the best attribute away from any player and their careers would have suffered for it. What would Lennon be without pace? What would Beckham be without his brilliant right foot? And so on...

How often do you notice positional mistakes from our other defenders? I mean, it's pretty rare to see someone play a perfect match positionally, particularly if we're being put under some pressure. Not trying to say there aren't shades of gray here, just trying to get a better understanding of how you rate his mistakes compared to the mistakes from our other defenders.

Some player improve massively with experience, some don't. Personally I think his decision making has already improved massively, and his positioning too. In his first season I could see rather glaring mistakes just about every game, but I'm seeing a lot fewer/smaller mistakes now. If he can keep improving is another question of course, but I will continue to have a lot of patience with him as I think he has a lot of potential and as long as he's trying and he's improving I will remain positive.

I'll give you an example, Corluka would lose to a slug in a foot race, but he was sound defensively in my opinion. He knew he wasn't quick, but he just knew where he was supposed to be more often than not so he wasn't exposed. I appreciate AVB's system depends on attacking minded full backs with pace i.e. someone like Walker. So I accept he is going to be caught upfield when teams hit us on the break, it is then up to Sandro/Capoue/whoever is playing defensive midfield to cover for him. I would simply like for him to improve his defensive skills when he is in our half.

I can only rate him compared to the other defenders in our squad:

Vertonghen- He's our best defender so no contest.
Kaboul- Our 2nd best CB so again I would rate his defensive skills higher than Walker.
Dawson- Comes in for a lot of stick. Technically not a brilliant defender, but I would still say he's a better defender than Walker.
Naughton- Walker is definitely better.
Chiriches- Haven't seen enough of him to be fair.

 

[braineclipse]

I'll give you an example, Corluka would lose to a slug in a foot race, but he was sound defensively in my opinion. He knew he wasn't quick, but he just knew where he was supposed to be more often than not so he wasn't exposed. I appreciate AVB's system depends on attacking minded full backs with pace i.e. someone like Walker. So I accept he is going to be caught upfield when teams hit us on the break, it is then up to Sandro/Capoue/whoever is playing defensive midfield to cover for him. I would simply like for him to improve his defensive skills when he is in our half.

I can only rate him compared to the other defenders in our squad:

Vertonghen- He's our best defender so no contest.
Kaboul- Our 2nd best CB so again I would rate his defensive skills higher than Walker.
Dawson- Comes in for a lot of stick. Technically not a brilliant defender, but I would still say he's a better defender than Walker.
Naughton- Walker is definitely better.
Chiriches- Haven't seen enough of him to be fair.

Walker is 23. When Kaboul was 22 (I think) we sold him to Portsmouth.
Vertonghen is 26, and has a lot more experience than Walker. We signed him at 25, how would Vertonghen have done if we had signed him at 22? I think perhaps he wouldn't have been as consistent.
Would you have used any qualifiers when describing Dawson as a better defender than Walker half a season ago?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Walker is 23. When Kaboul was 22 (I think) we sold him to Portsmouth.
Vertonghen is 26, and has a lot more experience than Walker. We signed him at 25, how would Vertonghen have done if we had signed him at 22? I think perhaps he wouldn't have been as consistent.
Would you have used any qualifiers when describing Dawson as a better defender than Walker half a season ago?

Don't understand what you mean by this.

Well I am judging them on how they are NOW. I have never said he CAN'T improve, it's just a question of whether he can improve enough.

Let's just put aside what WE think about him for a minute, most pundits I listen to agree that he needs to improve his defensive game his positioning leaves a lot to be desired.

This place does amuse me at times, there's always player that comes in for a lot of stick, but no matter how poorly he is playing, about half the board seem to form an alliance in defence of that player :lol: I'm not saying he's our worst player by any stretch or that he's been awful this season but you get the idea.

 

[SUIYHA]

Cole is much better defensively than Walker, better going forward too.

Now he is. He was ****e in defending in his earlier years, remember when Man Utd spanked Arsenal 6-1? He got better at it as he got older. Walker will do the same with experience as long as he is as dedicated to his game as Cole has been.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Why i don't rate Walker.

He is not a 'footbailer', in that he has very little technical ability ie cannot beat a man using technique, struggles to hold possession, pass in tight spaces, has very ,limited passing range, cannot cross. Has lapses of concentration and dont blame his age, he is in the first team and should be expected to be able to concentrate on his role. He cannot stop incoming crosses and is worse than useless in the air. He has no temperament and makes the most basic errors in crucial times in big games. Apart these he is okay. What he does possess is a good engine and plenty of pace. Really he is playing in the wrong era. Would have been in his element playing in the old first division back in the 70's, when it was all about work rate, power and pace.

 

[metalgear]

i think walker does a job in our team. the real defence are actually the two DMs and two CBs. with rose back you will see how unsettling we can and will be.

 

[parklane1]

He get a lot of unfair stick ( imo), he makes mistakes like all players but he seems to get ****ged off more then others, Dawson for instance is one who springs to mind.

 

[Spursalot]

He get a lot of unfair stick ( imo), he makes mistakes like all players but he seems to get ****ged off more then others, Dawson for instance is one who springs to mind.

Agreed. Personally think walker has been our best defender this season. I don't see half as much flak for some of our other defenders who have made more mistake than him, and more mistakes that have led to goals against us.

 

[parklane1]

Agreed. Personally think walker has been our best defender this season. I don't see half as much flak for some of our other defenders who have made more mistake than him, and more mistakes that have led to goals against us.

Yep, Walker is still fairly young aand will become even better as he gets older. I love Dawson and his attitude but he gets away with murder with some fans because of who he is rather then how good he is.

 

[Rorschach]

Yep there is definitely a divide on this board with regards to Walker. There are those who look at him and see only mistakes, and there's those who know about football (he he).

 

[metalgear]

walker's role under AVB's system is mostly about supporting midfield and attack. he needs to be evaluated against this.

 

[braineclipse]

Don't understand what you mean by this.

Well I am judging them on how they are NOW. I have never said he CAN'T improve, it's just a question of whether he can improve enough.

Let's just put aside what WE think about him for a minute, most pundits I listen to agree that he needs to improve his defensive game his positioning leaves a lot to be desired.

This place does amuse me at times, there's always player that comes in for a lot of stick, but no matter how poorly he is playing, about half the board seem to form an alliance in defence of that player :lol: I'm not saying he's our worst player by any stretch or that he's been awful this season but you get the idea.

What I meant was that for Kaboul and Vertonghen you had no problems just flat out stating that they're better defensively than Walker. For Dawson you had to use some qualifiers, pointing towards that it's perhaps close between the two of them? Would you have done the same 6-8 months ago or would it have been a more similar description to Kaboul/Vertonghen compared to Walker?

I point you again to some of the comments in this thread that are a lot more critical of him than what you're being.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Yep there is definitely a divide on this board with regards to Walker. There are those who look at him and see only mistakes, and there's those who know about football (he he).

How many of our other defenders have made as many mindless and costly mistakes as him? I think his 'wonder' goal in the NLD is the cause of a great deal of the love for him on here. It would seem it excuses a litany of flaws in the minds of some. Anyone who thinks Walker is any more than adequate has not watched much football in my view. Or maybe his critics live in a twin universe and are watching another **** version Walker.