Konoplyanka: Back On?

[indianspur]

Question is - are we yet again buying players without the manager in mind? Or does Levy plan on having Sherwood around for another year?

we had Dembele, Vertonghen and Sigurdssen practically lined up ready to sign before AVB became manager......Levy couldnt give a fcuk what the head coach/manager wants

 

[Fhtagn]

we had Dembele, Vertonghen and Sigurdssen practically lined up ready to sign before AVB became manager......Levy couldnt give a fcuk what the head coach/manager wants

He signed three days before the window closed.

 

[indianspur]

He signed three days before the window closed.

yes but the groundwork to the signing had been done Redknapp had him watched on numerous occasions the season before and he had already been identified as Modrics replacement, different player but you know what i mean....we were simply waiting for Modric to be sold

 

[milo]

yes but the groundwork to the signing had been done Redknapp had him watched on numerous occasions the season before and he had already been identified as Modrics replacement, different player but you know what i mean....we were simply waiting for Modric to be sold

There's a bit of rewriting of history going on here. Just because a player is watched, it does not mean that they were a primary target. Moutinho was identified as Modric's replacement and we switched our attention to Dembele when that fell through.

 

[indianspur]

There's a bit of rewriting of history going on here. Just because a player is watched, it does not mean that they were a primary target. Moutinho was identified as Modric's replacement and we switched our attention to Dembele when that fell through.

no there isnt.....Modric was sold on the 27th of August and Dembele signed on the 29th of Aug. We were never realistically in the running for Moutinho. It was simply Levy keeping face with AVB. The whole Moutinho farce was on deadline day and oh how unlucky we were not to get the deal done in time yeah right. Buying Moutinho would have sent us into a huge negative spend for that window and as has been proven for many years we dont go into that kind of negative territory. Dembele was always going to Modrics replacement whether the manager, whoever he was, liked it or not.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Question is - are we yet again buying players without the manager in mind? Or does Levy plan on having Sherwood around for another year?

I think it's quite an outdated model now that players are bought by, or even for, managers.

Players are bought by recruitment experts for a whole host of reasons (including financial) and the coach's job is to forge them into a coherent unit.

Siggy is always the odd one for me - he's a decent enough player, but we've never played a system that he remotely fits with.

The other possibility is that Baldini is already working with LVG. Remember Konoplyanka first came on the radar in January, a week or two after Levy's weekend in Noordwijk.

 

[milo]

no there isnt.....Modric was sold on the 27th of August and Dembele signed on the 29th of Aug. We were never realistically in the running for Moutinho. It was simply Levy keeping face with AVB. The whole Moutinho farce was on deadline day and oh how unlucky we were not to get the deal done in time yeah right. Buying Moutinho would have sent us into a huge negative spend for that window and as has been proven for many years we dont go into that kind of negative territory. Dembele was always going to Modrics replacement whether the manager, whoever he was, liked it or not.

How do you know that we were never realistically in for Moutinho? If it was all a charade to keep AVB happy, wouldn't this have lasted all of two seconds considering AVB's famed texting of ex-players?

 

[spurs' magna carter]

The other possibility is that Baldini is already working with LVG. Remember Konoplyanka first came on the radar in January, a week or two after Levy's weekend in Noordwijk.

GB, I have to admit that I wasn't about LVG but now I am. I couldn't stand your stance on Sherwood but now I agree with you. This though just comes across as clutching straws.

Considering it now looks as if LVG would prefer the Man Utd job, why would you think that?

Slap me in the face a couple of times by all means but I have literally lost all faith and at times couldn't give a sh!t. This club is a means to an ends and nothing else.

 

[Daisuk]

I think it's quite an outdated model now that players are bought by, or even for, managers.

Players are bought by recruitment experts for a whole host of reasons (including financial) and the coach's job is to forge them into a coherent unit.

Siggy is always the odd one for me - he's a decent enough player, but we've never played a system that he remotely fits with.

The other possibility is that Baldini is already working with LVG. Remember Konoplyanka first came on the radar in January, a week or two after Levy's weekend in Noordwijk.

Which is exactly why I don't understand implementing a model which doesn't necessarily take into account what kind of a system a manager wants to play. You'll end up with a bunch of a players that doesn't get to play or that doesn't get to play in their favored position when they play (like our 7 new recruits last summer).

 

[SUIYHA]

yes but the groundwork to the signing had been done Redknapp had him watched on numerous occasions the season before and he had already been identified as Modrics replacement, different player but you know what i mean....we were simply waiting for Modric to be sold

Nonsense. Dembele had a release clause in his contract, we could have signed him at the start of the window and let him bed in with a pre-season but didn't. We only signed him after he bossed a game at Old Trafford for Fulham.

The more I think about it, the less likely I can see this Konoplyanka deal happening. If they were in genuine discussions with us, why come public with it? There's no reason to do so. The only benefit would be to hurry up other bidders. And even if you think he can put past Vertonghen's antics in the Europa League (especially if Vertonghen leaves this summer), the only way he'd join us is if we get to the end of the summer and nobody in the Champions League has bid (ala Eriksen). There's no way he'd sign a contract with us now given the state we're in and the lack of certainty about who our manager is going to be.

This reminds me of this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17025344 - at least back then we were in the top 3, in the title race, seemingly dead certs for a Champions League group stage spot and playing attractive, attacking football with a good young squad. This link just seems ridiculous the more I think about it.

 

[indianspur]

How do you know that we were never realistically in for Moutinho? If it was all a charade to keep AVB happy, wouldn't this have lasted all of two seconds considering AVB's famed texting of ex-players?

i wouldnt think its that difficult to string along a selling club and a player. No deal is ever done until the ink is dry on the signed contracts. Signing Moutinho on transfer deadline day would have sent us into a minus 30 mill net spend for the window which is something we no longer do under Levy. Like i said, just look at our net spends during the transfer windows of the last 4 or 5 years. We are always around the break even point, sometimes slightly in the red and sometimes in profit. That cannot be a coincidence. As fans we have to open our eyes a bit more and see he reality of how the club is being run. Its being run well on a financial basis and thats because Levy is very careful not to overspend.......

 

[indianspur]

Nonsense. Dembele had a release clause in his contract, we could have signed him at the start of the window and let him bed in with a pre-season but didn't. We only signed him after he bossed a game at Old Trafford for Fulham.

The more I think about it, the less likely I can see this Konoplyanka deal happening. If they were in genuine discussions with us, why come public with it? There's no reason to do so. The only benefit would be to hurry up other bidders. And even if you think he can put past Vertonghen's antics in the Europa League (especially if Vertonghen leaves this summer), the only way he'd join us is if we get to the end of the summer and nobody in the Champions League has bid (ala Eriksen). There's no way he'd sign a contract with us now given the state we're in and the lack of certainty about who our manager is going to be.

This reminds me of this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17025344 - at least back then we were in the top 3, in the title race, seemingly dead certs for a Champions League group stage spot and playing attractive, attacking football with a good young squad. This link just seems ridiculous the more I think about it.

until Levy had the Modric deal agreed he was never going to buy Dembele.....Levy is too fcuking careful. Dembele was signed 2 days after Modric was sold.

 

[diego_maradona]

until Levy had the Modric deal agreed he was never going to buy Dembele.....Levy is too fcuking careful. Dembele was signed 2 days after Modric was sold.

Isn't that sensible for a club like Spurs?

 

[indianspur]

Isn't that sensible for a club like Spurs?

i think so. Thats why the club have to be careful this summer. This time we wont have a Modric or Bale to reluctantly offload and reinvest the money. So to spend 15-20 mill on Konoplyanka, who is unproven outside of the Ukraine league, will probably need a season to adapt to a new league and country, and plays in positions where we are pretty well covered with England internationals Lennon and Townsend, plus record signing Lamela, and Chadli who despite a poor start again probably needed a season to adapt, i think it would be a waste. Konoplyanka is a talent, so is Griezmann, so is Muniain at bilbao. But like i said earlier, for the money we will have to spend, can we guarantee they will come in and provide the 15-20 goals we need from their type and the assists too. Or will they end up contributing no more than the current lot. I would like us to find a proper goalscoring wide right or wide left forward if we are to persist with the damn one up front plan which i simply dont like anyway

 

[Gutter Boy]

GB, I have to admit that I wasn't about LVG but now I am. I couldn't stand your stance on Sherwood but now I agree with you. This though just comes across as clutching straws.

Considering it now looks as if LVG would prefer the Man Utd job, why would you think that?

Slap me in the face a couple of times by all means but I have literally lost all faith and at times couldn't give a sh!t. This club is a means to an ends and nothing else.

It's definitely a long shot, but then it turned out AVB had been consulted on the Verts and Siggy transfers before his appointment was formally confirmed.

I wouldn't read much into that specific LVG to United story - I think it's wishful thinking from some of Moyes' critics. I think there's definitely a risk he could go to United if they sack Moyes, but for all we know he's already signed a contract with us and we're just waiting till the end of the season to announce it.

Which is exactly why I don't understand implementing a model which doesn't necessarily take into account what kind of a system a manager wants to play. You'll end up with a bunch of a players that doesn't get to play or that doesn't get to play in their favored position when they play (like our 7 new recruits last summer).

Everyone does it though. I think it's more to do with treating clubs more like the big businesses they are and not leaving the whole organisation at the whim of one (relatively low ranking) employee who will likely be gone in less than 2 years.

I do think a good coach can work within this system if their approach is compatible with the DoF.

 

[Gutter Boy]

i think so. Thats why the club have to be careful this summer. This time we wont have a Modric or Bale to reluctantly offload and reinvest the money. So to spend 15-20 mill on Konoplyanka, who is unproven outside of the Ukraine league, will probably need a season to adapt to a new league and country, and plays in positions where we are pretty well covered with England internationals Lennon and Townsend, plus record signing Lamela, and Chadli who despite a poor start again probably needed a season to adapt, i think it would be a waste. Konoplyanka is a talent, so is Griezmann, so is Muniain at bilbao. But like i said earlier, for the money we will have to spend, can we guarantee they will come in and provide the 15-20 goals we need from their type and the assists too. Or will they end up contributing no more than the current lot

I agree that we will have to be much more cautious with money this year.

I think we'll have to look carefully and almost make one-in, one-out for minimal net spend decisions (a bit like last summer re Caulker-Chiriches and Livermore-Capoue).

With Konoplyanka then, we're probably saying he has to be offset by selling Siggy.

With others (e.g. Clasie and Blind) we'll have to consider whether it's worth the risk to move on the likes of Dembele, BAE and Rose etc. to be able to bring them in. Or whether we just stick and let the new coach see what he can do with those whose strengths and weaknesses we already know.

 

[indianspur]

I agree that we will have to be much more cautious with money this year.

I think we'll have to look carefully and almost make one-in, one-out for minimal net spend decisions (a bit like last summer re Caulker-Chiriches and Livermore-Capoue).

With Konoplyanka then, we're probably saying he has to be offset by selling Siggy.

With others (e.g. Clasie and Blind) we'll have to consider whether it's worth the risk to move on the likes of Dembele, BAE and Rose etc. to be able to bring them in. Or whether we just stick and let the new coach see what he can do with those whose strengths and weaknesses we already know.

Thudd-Capoue...........loanee Livermore is coming back in the summer i think

 

[NWND]

Guys, guys, guys. Not having a manager, does not mean we do no business. The manager is but one voice in a transfer committee that is presided over by Levy, which will include Baldini, Lewis and other power brokers plus the scouting team (now including Broomfield again) and even people like David Pleat.

We will be identifying targets already and planning for next summer. Whatever head coach comes in will be working with what he is given, which is the way Levy has done it from day one. The only manager that appears to have been in anyway successful in getting their own way in terms of transfer targets was Redknapp.

 

[NWND]

It's definitely a long shot, but then it turned out AVB had been consulted on the Verts and Siggy transfers before his appointment was formally confirmed.

I wouldn't read much into that specific LVG to United story - I think it's wishful thinking from some of Moyes' critics. I think there's definitely a risk he could go to United if they sack Moyes, but for all we know he's already signed a contract with us and we're just waiting till the end of the season to announce it.




Everyone does it though. I think it's more to do with treating clubs more like the big businesses they are and not leaving the whole organisation at the whim of one (relatively low ranking) employee who will likely be gone in less than 2 years.

I do think a good coach can work within this system if their approach is compatible with the DoF.

Definately, the vast majority of major clubs in the world now operate like this, with a sporting director or board deciding on and closing deals with only input received from the head coach or first team manager. There are very few clubs that let one man operate everything top to bottom. Fergie was one of the last at a major club, Wenger is another one.

Players are such massive investments now that the days of deciding on transfers at a manager's whim ("he's a top lad") are long gone. Massive due dilligence, reams of scouting and analysis go into looking at potential targets, many of which are decided on months in advance of the summer.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Thudd-Capoue...........loanee Livermore is coming back in the summer i think

I thought Livermore has been agreed as a permanent, just subject to Hull not being relegated (i.e. he won't be coming back, although we've not received any money yet)?

Position/style wise, I see Capoue and Livermore as being more like-for-like, where Eriksen if anyone was probably Huddlestone's replacement