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Jimmy Savile

I get what you mean regarding the 'it not being allowed if there was truth in it' but, it just seems like if the government had gone to certain lengths to avoid anything from getting out or being leaked surely none of this would be seen on a mainstream source whether that be the news of the world or the website unless either it was supposed too (that is to say someone high up wanted it leaked (higher than lord burton, I was thinking cabinet+ sort of level)) or there was no evidence or weight to it so it didn't matter.

hmmm I wouldn't know what to do in that situation at all, my headteacher at primary school was caught with sexually abusing a child in my school and sent to prison and you'd have never had thought it before if you'd met him (although he was a arse before hand and thinking back he did seem a bit creepy but, that may a bit of retrospective editing on my memories part.).

I've always wondered about my position on paedophilia (obviously it's a evil and a completely disgusting and gutwrenching to think about) but, is it a mental illness or a choice?

I suspect 'left' papers might be more inclined (allowed) to report about 'right' allegations of misdemeanors and vice-versa.

I struggle to believe that anyone is born bad. There are stats that show abused children are more likely to become abusers, when you study psychological developmental stages it makes sense that abused children may not complete these correctly. It is hard though, as thinking about how an abused child may think these acts are OK (to deal with them psychologically, as a defense mechanism), then is it all their fault when they themselves become abusers? probably not, but urghhh it's a tough subject to look upon subjectively.
 
Just reading the articles again... is the implication that the dunblane massacre was a cover up for paedophiles within the government - meaning the children were killed because they had been abused?

I think the born bad thing is a tricky subject as you start to deal with the nature and nurture argument which sometimes can be used or argued that it exonorates criminals and makes them the victim of their own situation tbh I tend to believe everybody has a choice in what they do but, their situation can play a part and I can't see any other reason for them to be like that (paedo's) other than them being mentally ill as it doesn't make sense (it's sickening to think about really) logically. I have a friend who was abused as a young boy, he's a lovely guy but, the wounds are still there if you get to understand him, I think any trauma at early stages in life can really put you off track.
 
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:ross:

Personally, I'm always very interested in Gifters' links, whether I believe the theories or not.
 
My second long term girlfriend told me after we had been going out for a while that she was touched (abused) by her grandad when younger. She told me because when we had sex she would stop me just before she was about to have an orgasm and start to cry (so I guess she felt she had to tell me why). She said that when she went to her mum about it that her mother completely blanked/blocked it and would not hear her words (so looking back now I assume that the grandad also abused his daughter, my then girlfriends mother, and that the only way her mother could deal with it was to block out the words and thoughts). When she told me it was obviously some heavy brick, but I still recall she was somehow looking also for me to reassure her it was wrong and it did happen (she turned into a lovely caring women though, thankfully).

It is so complex and horrid. In that case, was the grandfather also abused and not realise he was doing wrong as he was re-enacting something he made 'OK' in his mind to deal with his own abuse...

It's a fudged up world, sadly, but we must always try to face these things to stop them from repeating themselves.
 
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My second long term girlfriend told me after we had been going out for a while that she was touched (abused) by her grandad when younger. She told me because when we had sex she would stop me just before she was about to have an orgasm and start to cry (so I guess she felt she had to tell me why). She said that when she went to her mum about it that her mother completely blanked/blocked it and would not hear her words (so looking back now I assume that the grandad also abused his daughter, my then girlfriends mother, and that the only way her mother could deal with it was to block out the words and thoughts). When she told me it was obviously some heavy brick, but I still recall she was somehow looking also for me to reassure her it was wrong and it did happen (she turned into a lovely caring women though, thankfully).

It is so complex and horrid. In that case, was the grandfather also abused and not realise he was doing wrong as he was re-enacting something he made 'OK' in his mind to deal with his own abuse...

It's a fudged up world, sadly, but we must always try to face these things to stop them from repeating themselves.
I honestly have no idea what to make of these situations but, what you've said there is bang on.
 
Sorry but you don't care about the truth. As far as I remember, you're the guy who copy/pastes all the flimflam alternative medicine crap all over the board. You are turned on by views held by very few people because it empowers you to know you are a 'persecuted' minority. In reality, you are a nutjob who has no idea how to actually obtain the truth from corroborated facts. Sorry to burst your bubble.


Ben...Howard Webb too...guys...as aggravating as you (or others)might find conspiracy theories and theorists, I haver to ask you both to please keep it civil with regards to Gifter.
 
My first response was to ask is there any such thing as "100-year secrecy order". I've never heard of it and it made me suspicious.

A google search reveals a load of articles mentioning Dunblane and this conspiracy theory involving the Speculative Society. A search of "100-year closure order" reveals much the same, with some additional links to Census related material which does have a 100 year closure period. There are a few reports in the reputable media mentioning a "100-year secrecy/closure order" either imposed by by Judge Cullen in the Dunblane inquiry or on a related police report. These generally are quoting people asking for it to be removed to uncover the paedophile-freemason conspiracy. I only found one report (in the Telegraph) mentioning such an order being imposed by Cullen.

I don't know if such closure orders exist. I found mention of a 70-year one imposed on the Dr Kelly death, but on the David Icke site. A search for "closure order" brings up things on closing properties for various reasons. But if they do exist it seems strange that there are so few mentions of them and they are nearly all tied to conspiracy theories. You'd have though the government would use them more often. Or are we to believe that most of them are kept secret (like superinjunctions)? Its also possible that all the conspiracy theory speculation drowns out serious news on the search engines or that the search engine designers are members of the Speculative Society.

So I'm sceptical about a Dunblane cover-up to start with. Then add the tie-ins to freemasons (a common target of complex conspiracy theories), the Iraq war (a widely unpopular event) and most of Blair's senior cabinet members and the whole thing becomes far-fetched.

There is also a disturbing consequence of such theories. Paedophilia is a real problem, there are paedophilia rings and its inevitable that some famous people are paedophiles (i.e. possibly Saville). However, these wild wide-ranging conspiracy theories involving governments and free-masons and tie-ins to other unpopular events (e.g. the Iraq War) tend to diminish the credibility of more serious allegations. Its a form of crying wolf and is actually damning to efforts to eliminate paedophiles. Such conspiracies actually help protect paedophiles, even if that is not the intent.
 
Googling Hollie Greig shows further insite. From what I saw none of the first page results are from conspiracy sites.
 
About

In the summer of 2000, Hollie told her mother, Anne, that she had been repeatedly sexually abused by her father, Denis Charles Mackie and brother Greg. The abuse had begun when Hollie was just six years` old. Hollie said that Greg had also been abused by his father.
Anne Greig reported this immediately to the local police station in Aberdeen. During the course of that summer, Hollie, who has Down`s Syndrome, began to provide more names of abusers. It transpired that Denis Mackie had been sharing his daughter with a ring of sexual abusers, which included a serving police officer with the Grampian force, Terry Major and an Aberdeen sheriff, Graeme Buchanan.
Medical and other evidence supported Hollie`s account and Grampian Police accepted the truth of Hollie`s statement. Nonetheless, no action was taken by Grampian Police against the perpetrators and despite Anne Greig`s persistence, the Procurator Fiscal, now Lord Advocate, Elish Angiolini prevented any police action taking place.

In fact, the authorities instead attempted to discredit and intimidate Anne by having her forcibly taken to a mental institution, with the intention of handing Hollie back to her abuser father. Fortunately, Anne Greig had the presence of mind to have herself checked by a leading psychiatrist, who proclaimed her perfectly sane, a view with which even the institution were forced to concur.
In the years that have followed, Anne Greig has persisted in her attempts to bring the abusers to justice, not only for the sake of her own children, but also to prevent these dreadful practices continuing against others, which includes adults with learning difficulties as well as children.
It was only in 2009, when the News Of The World courageously broke the story, concentrating on the hitherto unheard of fact that Hollie had received payments from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority for crimes that have not even been investigated.
The measures to cover up this terrible story continue unbounded by the authorities.

Several years ago, Denis and Greg Mackie went to live in Portugal. On 8th May 2007, immediately following Madeleine McCann`s disappearance, Anne Greig, accompanied by a victim`s support witness, went to her now local police station in Shrewsbury to tell them to alert the Portuguese Police, as despite the proven case of paedophile abuse, neither of the Mackies had a record of any kind. The McCann team has accepted that the Mackies ought to have been questioned immediately. It is now understood that the British Police failed to pass on these details to their Portuguese counterparts.

Hence, the official cover up has even extended to detracting from the Madeleine McCann investigation.
Investigators have already informed us that discoveries of other paedophile rings in Scotland has been discovered, but it is clear that certain senior figures of authority are prepared to obstruct the course of justice and allow the known sexual abuse of some of society`s most vulnerable people to continue unabated, just to save their own skins.
The Hollie Greig story is now widely known by the media, police, legal, medical and political professions.

The facts are beyond dispute.

The only question that remains will be as to who has sufficient decency and courage to bring this and other issues to a just conclusion.
Robert Green
Investigator
 
Googling Hollie Greig shows further insite. From what I saw none of the first page results are from conspiracy sites.

Yes, but that is a completely different matter than a major conspiracy involving Freemasons and governments. Its involves a family using their positions to defend themselves. Its a much more credible story.

However, it also gets picked up by the world conspiracy phalanx. David Icke appears prominently again and to quote wikipedia:

At the heart of his theories lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie.

I
 
Yeah I don't care about sexual abuse... why don't people who get upset about the subject of some of the posts I make take a breath before posting bile because they can't face the subject might have credence...

I don't give a f**k what you, webb, the mods, or anybody thinks of me personally. It's a message board.

You're still loopy. I don't think I have ever come across someone who reads into conspiracies so much that you are practacially hoping for them to be fact.

Some words of advice; The contents on the internet are 80% flimflam and 20% accurate. Conspiracy theorists never tend to accept knowledge of an expert in their field (i.e. the twin towers and the disbelief steel should have failed at the tempatures reached by kerosene fuel. Multiple experts (with video recorded examples) explained steel melts at the obvious 'melting point' but much of its strengh in lost at a far lower tempeature). Of course none of the conspirasists will accept that as they 'know' better or believe the experts explanation is backed by the government.

It's a unwinable fight and to be totally honest I find many of these conspiracists offensive, backing people like that 'wonder cure' doctor of yours who targets the most vunerable people with his 'miracle natural cure' yet refuses to validate his findings under fair test conditions, meanwhile promotes his own website 'selling' the patented mircale drugs (which of course is in his name).
 
I find this type of argument much more convincing:


The shameful history of silence on child abuse


While we pore over the details of the allegations against Jimmy Savile, we turn a blind eye to other forms of exploitation

Nick Cohen
The Observer, Sunday 7 October 2012

Christopher Marlowe's most quoted exchange comes in The Jew of Malta when Bernardine, a friar, tries to accuse the antihero Barabas of murder. "Thou hast committed…" he begins. "Fornication?" interrupts Barabas as he deflects attention from a capital crime to a charge too footling for serious people to care about. "But that was in another country, and besides, the wench is dead."

Barabas's cool assertions that no one could prove a sex charge – "but that was in another country" – and no one need care – "and besides, the wench is dead" – have haunted writers and audiences for centuries. TS Eliot used them at the beginning of Portrait of a Lady to illustrate male indifference to female suffering. Colin Dexter and PD James wove them into their thrillers.

I doubt if the words of Peter Rippon, the editor of Newsnight, will ring down the ages. But they ought to be remembered for the Marlovian dismissiveness with which he explained why he had canned an investigation into Jimmy Savile. "Newsnight is not normally interested in celebrity exposé," he said as he emphasised that he was a high-brow journalist rather than one of those grubby hacks Hugh Grant and Lord Justice Leveson so disapprove of. "What was the public interest served by reporting it, given he is dead? The nature of the allegations and the level of proof required. The fact the incidents were 40 years ago."

Rippon left it to others to allege that Savile had abused the young from the 1960s on BBC premises and charitable homes for abandoned children. He regrets what he said now, particularly as the BBC's management, who, if the allegations are correct, did nothing to stop Savile, appear to be thinking of making a sacrificial offering of his career. Nevertheless, the excuses given for keeping quiet are as important as the facts of a case. With child sex scandals, there is an unnerving consistency. The abuse happened a long time ago; no one can prove it; respectable people should not take the allegations seriously; no one need care.

If I believed in a divinity, I would call the child abuse scandal that has destroyed the Roman Catholic church's reputation in Europe and North America divine justice. As I do not, I will stick to its repellent symmetries with the Savile affair. Abusive priests were once like celebrities. They were big figures in their parishes. They performed good works, as Savile did for charity. The children they groomed were rough boys and girls under the church's control. Who would want to believe their stories, even if the abused found the courage to tell them? When enough men and women found that courage, and the scandal could no longer be denied, the church switched from defending victimisers to playing the victim.

"From GHod comes the courage not to be intimidated by petty gossip," said Pope Benedict XVI, as he presented the accusations of the powerless as acts of aggression. In a moment beyond satire, the preacher to the Vatican household, one Father Raniero Cantalamessa, went further and compared criticism of the church's record on child abuse to "the more shameful aspects of anti-semitism". The powerful were now the persecuted. Their victims were the modern equivalent of the Nazis.

It is a familiar inversion. When journalists hinted that "Jimmy liked them young", Savile replied that he did not like children at all – a revealing response in retrospect. He accounted for the gossip by saying that he was a famous man and a single man and his enemies made malicious assumptions on that basis. The celebrity, like the priest, was the true object of pity. His accusers were fantasists or worse.

Irish atheist friends, who have learned from experience not to believe a word that emanates from the Catholic hierarchy, tell me that they smell a whiff of Protestant prejudice in British condemnations of Catholic backwardness. They are right to believe we have no grounds for feeling superior. The English judicial hierarchy has shown itself to be equally unconcerned with the abuse of children. In the case of Roman Polanski, the judiciary imitated the Pope and all his cardinals by staring evidence of child abuse in the face and then turning the other way. Polanski, you may remember, had fled to France to avoid punishment for having sex with a 13-year-old girl he had supplied with drink and drugs in LA.

If you want to know why the British press only hinted at Savile's predilections, look at what happened when Polanski asked the English courts for permission to sue Vanity Fair for saying he had propositioned a woman while he was on the way to his wife's funeral. A terrible thing to say of a man of good reputation, no doubt, but how could a convicted child abuser living in exile to avoid a prison sentence be said to have a good reputation on matters sexual he could defend in court? The judges not only decided in 2005 that Polanski was a reputable man, paedophilia notwithstanding, they also worried that the Met would arrest him if he visited London. To save him from American justice, they allowed Polanski to give his evidence via video link from Paris.

Chaps who look after other chaps make easy targets for a liberal newspaper. But let me move on from judges and clerics to the many versions of child abuse the politically correct protect. Peter Rippon proved that he wasn't a complete duffer when Newsnight aired a report in July on how thousands of British girls had Type III "infibulation" inflicted on them. Their mothers or grandmothers, or maybe an imam or some other variety of priest or "traditional healer", cut off the inner and outer labia and clitoris with scissors or a knife to form a wall of flesh and skin across the vulva, leaving only a hole the size of a matchstick.

Not one representative from the teaching or medical professions would go on air to explain why they never protested. We live in a country where the law prohibiting genital mutilation has never been enforced; where the authorities go wild when a 15-year-old white girl runs off to France with her teacher but stay silent when Asian girls are yanked out of school and forced into marriage.

The tolerance of child abuse by the old conservative establishment and their multicultural successors shows there is a strong public interest in learning how Jimmy Savile could abuse so many for so long – even though the wretch is dead.

Its not a conspiracy of silence. Its more powerful people not wanting to offend other powerful people. And as powerful people tend to have the same interests it begins to look like a conspiracy.

An analogy would be the ultra-rich and government influence. They have similar interests so have similar reasons to further their interests by lobbying for laws on taxation and other favourable treatment of their companies, etc. There is no need for a global elite conspiring for these things as each acting independently works for pretty much the same thing. Where there is an element of conspiracy it tends to be in cover-ups when things get a bit dodgy and the politicians who hand out the favours don't want the publicity.
 
Yes, but that is a completely different matter than a major conspiracy involving Freemasons and governments. Its involves a family using their positions to defend themselves. Its a much more credible story.

No, this time the conspiracy is the police force and legal system...

(Edit: This is a general response, not directly soley at you jts1882)

It would be really heartening if people could get past the triggers, the foundation article about Dunblane was by a Mason who said there was a conspiracy to block the path to truth by some other Masons (not that all masons are bad), also he was a government MP and said he also encountered threats by other MP's (not that all MP's are bad).

The reason that I have a BIG problem with Masons who hold positions of public authority (police, politicians, layers etc) is that when they take their initiation test and become a third level freemason they have to recite passages from Morals and Dogma, then swear oath that under fear of death they will protect another mason unless offering protection puts them into mortal danger (should the Mason call out their secret word), it is 100% wrong, there is no defense for this, it's not a conspiracy theory, it is fact. This mechanism, even if the rest of Masonry and it's work are all benevolent, means the whole structure is open to abuse and manipulation.

Apologies to most masons, it is not you I am against. One of my best friends is a 3rd degree and he is a righteous and good person.
 
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You're still loopy.

Some words of advice...

I find many of these conspiracists offensive

Yeah OK... I'm nuts, you know better, people who having different views to you are offensive. Thanks for putting me straight.

I would be honoured if you would put me on ignore. Thanks.
 
However, it also gets picked up by the world conspiracy phalanx. David Icke appears prominently again

You may not be shocked to hear that I have met Icke, he invited me to his home to get some of my Orgonite from me, and for me to talk to him about it (not vice versa, I didn't want to learn from him). I don't have any of his work, but his then wife gave me a couple of free tickets to a show of his, my wife and I went and it was very good, but didn't mention reptilians once, which I was a little disappointed about TBH!
 
This will be my last post on this topic, as it is so very dark.

BBC Documentary which aired in 2002.

Belgium - An Olenka Frenkiel investigation

[video=youtube;0uCoqldzLJs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0uCoqldzLJs[/video]

Part 2 = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfzQiJMrIbc

Part 3 = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiSnCRVP1zI

Edit : As this is one step removed from us in the UK I hope it is more palatable, I urge people to watch this.
 
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