Jehovah's Witnesses try to murder their own son

[Millsy_Yiddo]

I knew the CPS would bottle it, but I at least expected some kind of reckless endangerment charge.

I wonder what will happen to the next person who sacrifices their child because the tooth fairy told her to do it?

From what I can gather, proton therapy was not offered to them by the NHS. This is the treatment they want for their child because they believe that it will do the least damage to the rest of his brain and therefore pose the least risk to rendering him blind, disabled, whatever else (whether they are right or wrong is a different matter). So they took action to take their child somewhere that can and have since been granted permission to do it in Prague. I don't see how this has anything to do with their non-belief in Santa (and I hate religion more than most).

Sometimes, there comes a time where you should just hold your hands up and say 'I was wrong'. This is one of those times Scaramanga.

 

[scaramanga]

The fact their aim is to get their son into the care of other medical professionals, where he can receive a treatment that other medical professionals say can work for the boy, and which should cause fewer side effects, would suggest they hold doctors in perfectly high esteem.

Yet they've dismissed the valid opinion of the professionals that have spent more time with their child than any other. So clearly they like to ignore the evidence that suggests what they believe is wrong.

The second sentence in that paragraph is a pretty succinct definition of religion.

 

[scaramanga]

Scara, please stop your misguided venomous posts. This is nothing to do with religion and all to do with doing whatever it takes to save the lives of our children.

That's not venom, that's me being nice to godtards.

 

[scaramanga]

From what I can gather, proton therapy was not offered to them by the NHS. This is the treatment they want for their child because they believe that it will do the least damage to the rest of his brain and therefore pose the least risk to rendering him blind, disabled, whatever else (whether they are right or wrong is a different matter). So they took action to take their child somewhere that can and have since been granted permission to do it in Prague. I don't see how this has anything to do with their non-belief in Santa (and I hate religion more than most).

Sometimes, there comes a time where you should just hold your hands up and say 'I was wrong'. This is one of those times Scaramanga.

It's everything to do with their religion. There was a mountain of evidence (or at least expert testimony) in front of them telling them they're wrong. They (as part of a religion that tells them ignoring expert advice from doctors is OK), decide not to listen to that, and that they, as laymen, know better.

So even if they are now telling the truth about their reasoning (and I'm very skeptical) it still boils down to their religion, as that's what has destroyed their ability to use logic and reasoning.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

Did you get buggered up the ar5e by a Jehovahs Witness as a child scaramanga? You seem to have a real beef with them.

 

[Seedy Ron]

There was the Southampton Uni Hospital NHS Trust telling them radiotherapy would work just as well, who probably aren't too keen to cough up 100 grand, they have books to balance. Surely there's evidence that proton beam therapy has fewer side effects than standard radiotherapy? Or are you ignoring that?

You, and some others, decided straight off that bat that his parents had whisked him off to pray for him instead of trusting to modern medicine, and you've now been proven to be incorrect. If anything, they're doing the exact opposite of what you thought they were doing, looking for the best of what modern medicine can currently provide.

 

[scaramanga]

Did you get buggered up the ar5e by a Jehovahs Witness as a child scaramanga? You seem to have a real beef with them.

I find them some of the least offensive of all the godtards - I quite like Mormons too, they're funny. Not so keen on the whole racism aspect though, but what's a religion without a bit of unfounded hatred?

 

[scaramanga]

There was the Southampton Uni Hospital NHS Trust telling them radiotherapy would work just as well, who probably aren't too keen to cough up 100 grand, they have books to balance. Surely there's evidence that proton beam therapy has fewer side effects than standard radiotherapy? Or are you ignoring that?

You, and some others, decided straight off that bat that his parents had whisked him off to pray for him instead of trusting to modern medicine, and you've now been proven to be incorrect. If anything, they're doing the exact opposite of what you thought they were doing, looking for the best of what modern medicine can currently provide.

As I understand it, proton therapy isn't approved at all in the UK yet, so the option to offer it wouldn't have been there in any case.

Moving patients abroad for proven but unapproved treatments isn't all that rare. But as with any medical decision, there needs to be a balance of what possible benefits there are to the patient versus the potential harm from administering the treatment and all that is required to do so.

In this situation it was made clear to the family that in this case it was unlikely to help. Balanced against the massive risk of moving the patient in the condition he was in, it sounds like the case not to move him was clear. In fact, the experts felt the potential harm was so great that they had applied to the courts to keep him in situ.

The quality of the treatment they claim to be chasing has no relevance (at least, not past the risk/benefit balance above), the fact that they ignored expert opinion in lieu of their own is.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

As I understand it, proton therapy isn't approved at all in the UK yet, so the option to offer it wouldn't have been there in any case.

Moving patients abroad for proven but unapproved treatments isn't all that rare. But as with any medical decision, there needs to be a balance of what possible benefits there are to the patient versus the potential harm from administering the treatment and all that is required to do so.

In this situation it was made clear to the family that in this case it was unlikely to help. Balanced against the massive risk of moving the patient in the condition he was in, it sounds like the case not to move him was clear. In fact, the experts felt the potential harm was so great that they had applied to the courts to keep him in situ.

The quality of the treatment they claim to be chasing has no relevance (at least, not past the risk/benefit balance above), the fact that they ignored expert opinion in lieu of their own is.

Whats your source on that? The NHS have now agreedthe little boy is going to be treated (if he meets all the criteria) with proton therapy in Prague. So I really don't see how you can come to the conclusion that they we're told 'this won't help him' in the original instance (why would they now change their stance). The NHS have shipped over 100 patients to the states for the treatment in the past, so it is much more likely that they didn't offer the treatment to them at all for whatever reason. On the risk of moving the patient, yep granted, definitely a risk, but it seems they took many precautions to at least mitigate the risks as best possible.

The fact they ignored expert opinion is their right as parents. Whether they were right or wrong to do so remains to be seen, but again, I don't think it has anything to do with religion.

 

[Reggie_Mentalist]

Lock this **** up. It's embarrassing.

Actually I am now wondering whether it would be best to "STICKY" this topic.

 

[Roy1983]

Godtards? Bit ignorant Scara no?

 

[Seedy Ron]

As I understand it, proton therapy isn't approved at all in the UK yet, so the option to offer it wouldn't have been there in any case.

Moving patients abroad for proven but unapproved treatments isn't all that rare. But as with any medical decision, there needs to be a balance of what possible benefits there are to the patient versus the potential harm from administering the treatment and all that is required to do so.

In this situation it was made clear to the family that in this case it was unlikely to help. Balanced against the massive risk of moving the patient in the condition he was in, it sounds like the case not to move him was clear. In fact, the experts felt the potential harm was so great that they had applied to the courts to keep him in situ.

The quality of the treatment they claim to be chasing has no relevance (at least, not past the risk/benefit balance above), the fact that they ignored expert opinion in lieu of their own is.

When did they do that? Portsmouth City Council had him made a ward of court after his parents had taken him, I'd not heard of any court order to keep him where he is, considering Southampton are saying they didn't have a clue they were going to take him abroad (the family say they told them they would), it seems an odd thing to have already done.

I believe you can already get proton beam treatment over here, but so far only for eye cancers, and as Millsy says they already ship some people abroad for it. There are new units for it being developed though.

My understanding of it is that Southampton said standard radiotherapy would be an appropriate treatment, but his parents were worried by the side effects. I would be amazed if it wasn't a financial decision, not that there's particularly anything wrong with that, but I'd imagine if it's your child you think different.

 

[Stufat]

Obnoxious, rude, blinkered, not knowing when your wrong.

Sure your not a politician scara?

 

[SteveAWOL]

As I understand it, proton therapy isn't approved at all in the UK yet, so the option to offer it wouldn't have been there in any case.

Moving patients abroad for proven but unapproved treatments isn't all that rare. But as with any medical decision, there needs to be a balance of what possible benefits there are to the patient versus the potential harm from administering the treatment and all that is required to do so.

In this situation it was made clear to the family that in this case it was unlikely to help. Balanced against the massive risk of moving the patient in the condition he was in, it sounds like the case not to move him was clear. In fact, the experts felt the potential harm was so great that they had applied to the courts to keep him in situ.

The quality of the treatment they claim to be chasing has no relevance (at least, not past the risk/benefit balance above), the fact that they ignored expert opinion in lieu of their own is.

There are currently 2 proton therapy centres under construction in the UK but they won't be operational until 2017. In the meantime the NHS spends about £30m annually sending patients to private clinics in the USA or continental Europe.

Children to get proton beam cancer therapy in Britain - Telegraph

As Dr Phil Hammond writes in this article, the parents have every right to get a second expert opinion. The oncologists at Southampton hospital could have easily sent copies of the kid' scans to any of the proton therapy centres already used by the NHS, if only to put the parents' minds at rest so they wouldn't have resorted to such desperate measures.

Ashya King: it needs to be easier for parents get a second opinion - Telegraph

 

[ShelfLife]

"The wisest people in the world, are those that admit when they are wrong"

"Nobody in history has every choked to death by swallowing his pride"

"Never be ashamed to admit you are wrong, it shows you are wiser today that you were yesterday"

"We all f u c k up. Life's a lot easier if we accept when we do"

Just saying :-"

 

[scaramanga]

Godtards? Bit ignorant Scara no?

Would you prefer a term such as "voluntary halfwit"?

I'm not singling anyone out, there are plenty of Allahtards, Lonotards, Shivatards, etc.

 

[scaramanga]

Whats your source on that?

The father himself - the quote's in this thread somewhere.

The NHS have now agreedthe little boy is going to be treated (if he meets all the criteria) with proton therapy in Prague. So I really don't see how you can come to the conclusion that they we're told 'this won't help him' in the original instance (why would they now change their stance).

Not my conclusion, that would be silly as I'm not an expert. It was the conclusion of the experts in Southampton.

I heard today that he will need to be stabilised again because of complications (Independant article) before moving again. So there will still be a massive risk, I suspect that the risk is now somewhat diminished seeing as the kid was luckily able to be moved without expertise.

The NHS have shipped over 100 patients to the states for the treatment in the past, so it is much more likely that they didn't offer the treatment to them at all for whatever reason.

In which case, wouldn't that suggest to you that our system is capable of sending those who can benefit and can safely travel? That just goes to back up the fact that if the rewards outstripped the risks it would have happened.

On the risk of moving the patient, yep granted, definitely a risk, but it seems they took many precautions to at least mitigate the risks as best possible.

Have a look at the question posed by braineclipse earlier in the thread. He the NHS tried to move the boy in anything like the conditions the parents did, people would be calling for sackings at least, probably imprisonment if the kid had died.

The best precaution non-qualified people can take is to leave it in the hands of qualified professionals.

The fact they ignored expert opinion is their right as parents. Whether they were right or wrong to do so remains to be seen, but again, I don't think it has anything to do with religion.

It's absolutely not their right.

They do not own their child, he isn't their property. He is a person and entitled to the same treatment as anyone else no matter what his parents think.

As recent cases in Australia and the US have shown, if you refuse medical treatment because you think you know better, the state will hold you liable for the consequences.

 

[scaramanga]

When did they do that? Portsmouth City Council had him made a ward of court after his parents had taken him, I'd not heard of any court order to keep him where he is, considering Southampton are saying they didn't have a clue they were going to take him abroad (the family say they told them they would), it seems an odd thing to have already done.

I was listening to a report on R4 that mentioned PCC had already taken it to the courts and that the family fled before the decision came down. He may have been mistaken but it's not like R4 to get their facts wrong.

I believe you can already get proton beam treatment over here, but so far only for eye cancers, and as Millsy says they already ship some people abroad for it. There are new units for it being developed though.

I didn't know that it had started here, merely that it was being approved and would be available soon.

As I said previously, if patients are already being sent when required, doesn't that back up the opinion that in this case it wouldn't help? Or did the specialists just think "fvck it, let this one die"?

My understanding of it is that Southampton said standard radiotherapy would be an appropriate treatment, but his parents were worried by the side effects. I would be amazed if it wasn't a financial decision, not that there's particularly anything wrong with that, but I'd imagine if it's your child you think different.

I'd be amazed if it is a financial one. Whilst I think there's space for criticism of the NHS and its spending habits on a national scale, they don't seem to be particularly spendthrift on individual decisions - especially where kids are involved.

I suspect the risk of moving the kid outweighed what is probably a negligible benefit in this case. Just my opinion, obviously.

 

[scaramanga]

Obnoxious, rude, blinkered, not knowing when your wrong.

Sure your not a politician scara?

Many of the best politicians are the ones that stick to their guns whilst everyone else catches up.

I did try local politics briefly, but I'm not really the "toe the party line" type.

 

[scaramanga]

There are currently 2 proton therapy centres under construction in the UK but they won't be operational until 2017. In the meantime the NHS spends about £30m annually sending patients to private clinics in the USA or continental Europe.

Children to get proton beam cancer therapy in Britain - Telegraph

As Dr Phil Hammond writes in this article, the parents have every right to get a second expert opinion. The oncologists at Southampton hospital could have easily sent copies of the kid' scans to any of the proton therapy centres already used by the NHS, if only to put the parents' minds at rest so they wouldn't have resorted to such desperate measures.

Ashya King: it needs to be easier for parents get a second opinion - Telegraph

I've covered most of this in my replies to Millsy and Seedy.

As for second opinions, they'll have had second, third and probably fourth opinions within the hospital. Why do they need to risk their child's life to get another? If you keep asking enough people, you'll eventually get the opinion you want to hear.