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General Transfer Rumour Discussion Thread

Mumorn said:
Bentaleb will be a good player for us. He'll never reach Modric or even Verratti but he could quite easily be a Schneiderlin. He needs a partner who will compliment him though, perhaps a strong box to Box like a Wanyama who has made Schneiderlin look good this year.
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Nothing like a bombastic prediction about the future, eh?

What is it Modric and Verratti had at 20 that Bentaleb is missing?
 
Mumorn said:
Bentaleb will be a good player for us. He'll never reach Modric or even Verratti but he could quite easily be a Schneiderlin. He needs a partner who will compliment him though, perhaps a strong box to Box like a Wanyama who has made Schneiderlin look good this year.
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Schneiderlin doesnt need Wanyama to make him look good...
 
braineclipse said:
Nothing like a bombastic prediction about the future, eh?

What is it Modric and Verratti had at 20 that Bentaleb is missing?
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I cannot for the life of me see what the fuss is over Bentaleb, would you please explain to me what you think his strengths are, In my view he does not score goals, he does not create goals, rarely passes forward, weak in the tackle and worse of all runs along side the game instead of influencing it, I am being serious Braineclipse would you tell me your opinion on him.
 
Jimmy-g said:
I cannot for the life of me see what the fuss is over Bentaleb, would you please explain to me what you think his strengths are, In my view he does not score goals, he does not create goals, rarely passes forward, weak in the tackle and worse of all runs along side the game instead of influencing it, I am being serious Braineclipse would you tell me your opinion on him.
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Ok, first your points in order then:

Score goal and create goals has been done so many times in Carrick and Modric discussions I'm hesiitant to re-start that discussion. Very briefly I don't think goals scored and assists are a good metric to measure a defensive/holding/deep playmaker type player at all. It's just not his job to score and create goals frequently and very few, if any, players in that role do so with any kind of frequency (ignoring set pieces). Do you disagree? I assume so since you brought those things up?

On passing forward I just flat out disagree. In his role most of his passes will be relatively low risk, as they should be. Consistency and not giving away possession often is key for that role. But he does player forward passes, and at least when he's on form and our team is playing well I think he's rather good at playing quick, effective forward passes with a lot of purpose.

Weak in the tackle I again just have to disagree. He's not a Sandro type defensive midfielder, but he's far from weak in the tackle and absolutely competitive and fairly strong.

I don't quite know what running alongside the game instead of influencing it actually means. Sounds a lot like the "doesn't take the game by the scruff of the neck" type things people used to say about Modric though. Bentaleb averages 58.6 passes per game for us, which is second highest only to Capoue in our squad. Only 10 players in the league average more passes per game than him (whoscored.com, filtered for minimum appearances). Of those ahead of him only Morgan Shcneidelin and Gareth Barry play for clubs outside the top 4. Now, that stat is not some end the argument type stat. Just pointing it out as I find that stat strange for a player that "runs alongside the game".

Why I rate him so highly:

First of all his age, or rather his age combined with his ability and composure. He's playing a role and position that's extremely difficult to play and that players typically have to grow into. We signed Carrick, who I think is/was fantastic, at 23 from West Ham in the Championship. Bentaleb is showing a composure and maturity in that role at an extremely young age. Other than Busquets it's almost unheard of to break through as a teenager in that role at the very highest level. We're not quite at the very highest level, but we're damned close. Matic, who rightly gets a lot of praise, was sold by Chelsea at 22. I really, really, could go on with examples. Point is Bentaleb is extremely young for someone in his role.

Second of all his abilities. He's a very well rounded player. You say he doesn't score enough, but along with all his other strengths we have actually seen that he can strike a ball really well. And I still don't think goalscoring is a key metric for him. He has a great touch, when in form at least. A good range of passing, I think he's competitive in the tackle at least, he's fairly athletic and quick with quick feet, he's got good vision, he can dribble and create space for himself. As far as I can tell he has no real weaknesses, in a role that requires a lot of complex skills that's actually rather amazing at that age.

Third his performances. He's already shown himself to be the best midfielder on the pitch in games against top level opposition like Chelsea (imo). Of course he's not performing like that week in week out throughout the season, of course, he's fudging 20. But he's been in form much more than he's been out of form and he's been doing really well this season, even against very good opponents.

I can't predict the future. But if Bentaleb has a development curve like most players and continues to get better in his early twenties he can become a fantastic player based on what he's already shown. I would start him every game unless it's judged helpful for his development to get a rest. I wouldn't bring in anyone to replace him unless they were truly top class. He's a talent we should nurture to bring the best out of on par with Kane.
 
Takes the ball under pressure - always looking for it - rarely loses it - has a wide view of the pitch and often recycles the ball going forwards. He is strong and has a half decent shot.

For me he is the player most likely to go to a top team (over Kane), injuries permitting. Rolls Royce of a player.
 
Modric is world class and one of the best CM players I have seen in 50 years of watching football, I very much doubt that Bentalab will ever reach those hights. As for what he was doing at the same age well Modric was a regular in the Dinamo Zagreb team and his national team at 20 also. And according to Bilic was a star for both at that age, you will probably say Bentalab is the same but it all honesty its not the same level.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Takes the ball under pressure - always looking for it - rarely loses it - has a wide view of the pitch and often recycles the ball going forwards. He is strong and has a half decent shot.

For me he is the player most likely to go to a top team (over Kane), injuries permitting. Rolls Royce of a player.
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Yep - Bentaleb will be the next player to go to Madrid. Hopefully we'll get 2 or 3 more seasons out of him first though
 
Modric is the best player I have seen at the club (from around 94). I would not want to compare anyone to him, think Bentalab can surpass Carrick for example
 
On Modric I agree with you guys. My question to Mumorn was more related to Verratti. But also, Modric's career could have taken a very different direction. Was it really obvious at 20 that he would turn out world class for Real Madrid. I somehow doubt it.
 
braineclipse said:
Ok, first your points in order then:

Score goal and create goals has been done so many times in Carrick and Modric discussions I'm hesiitant to re-start that discussion. Very briefly I don't think goals scored and assists are a good metric to measure a defensive/holding/deep playmaker type player at all. It's just not his job to score and create goals frequently and very few, if any, players in that role do so with any kind of frequency (ignoring set pieces). Do you disagree? I assume so since you brought those things up?

On passing forward I just flat out disagree. In his role most of his passes will be relatively low risk, as they should be. Consistency and not giving away possession often is key for that role. But he does player forward passes, and at least when he's on form and our team is playing well I think he's rather good at playing quick, effective forward passes with a lot of purpose.

Weak in the tackle I again just have to disagree. He's not a Sandro type defensive midfielder, but he's far from weak in the tackle and absolutely competitive and fairly strong.

I don't quite know what running alongside the game instead of influencing it actually means. Sounds a lot like the "doesn't take the game by the scruff of the neck" type things people used to say about Modric though. Bentaleb averages 58.6 passes per game for us, which is second highest only to Capoue in our squad. Only 10 players in the league average more passes per game than him (whoscored.com, filtered for minimum appearances). Of those ahead of him only Morgan Shcneidelin and Gareth Barry play for clubs outside the top 4. Now, that stat is not some end the argument type stat. Just pointing it out as I find that stat strange for a player that "runs alongside the game".

Why I rate him so highly:

First of all his age, or rather his age combined with his ability and composure. He's playing a role and position that's extremely difficult to play and that players typically have to grow into. We signed Carrick, who I think is/was fantastic, at 23 from West Ham in the Championship. Bentaleb is showing a composure and maturity in that role at an extremely young age. Other than Busquets it's almost unheard of to break through as a teenager in that role at the very highest level. We're not quite at the very highest level, but we're damned close. Matic, who rightly gets a lot of praise, was sold by Chelsea at 22. I really, really, could go on with examples. Point is Bentaleb is extremely young for someone in his role.

Second of all his abilities. He's a very well rounded player. You say he doesn't score enough, but along with all his other strengths we have actually seen that he can strike a ball really well. And I still don't think goalscoring is a key metric for him. He has a great touch, when in form at least. A good range of passing, I think he's competitive in the tackle at least, he's fairly athletic and quick with quick feet, he's got good vision, he can dribble and create space for himself. As far as I can tell he has no real weaknesses, in a role that requires a lot of complex skills that's actually rather amazing at that age.

Third his performances. He's already shown himself to be the best midfielder on the pitch in games against top level opposition like Chelsea (imo). Of course he's not performing like that week in week out throughout the season, of course, he's fudgeing 20. But he's been in form much more than he's been out of form and he's been doing really well this season, even against very good opponents.

I can't predict the future. But if Bentaleb has a development curve like most players and continues to get better in his early twenties he can become a fantastic player based on what he's already shown. I would start him every game unless it's judged helpful for his development to get a rest. I wouldn't bring in anyone to replace him unless they were truly top class. He's a talent we should nurture to bring the best out of on par with Kane.
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Thanks for that, I will look at him in a different way and look for the things you see.

By running alongside the game I mean that he gets passed very easy, I still think he cannot tackle, the position he plays in he should always try to be facing the play and to me he gets passed by and has to give away silly fouls while chasing back.

I will take your points on board and see if I am being harsh on him.
 
Jimmy-g said:
Thanks for that, I will look at him in a different way and look for the things you see.

By running alongside the game I mean that he gets passed very easy, I still think he cannot tackle, the position he plays in he should always try to be facing the play and to me he gets passed by and has to give away silly fouls while chasing back.

I will take your points on board and see if I am being harsh on him.
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Cheers :)

I've been over this in other threads, but I think part of our defensive problems are that our front 4 doesn't do enough consistently enough and there's too much space and time to expose those central two (usually Bentaleb and Mason).
 
^ I'd agree with that, I think. Kane does more than the other three, who are just varying shades of powder-puff after they've given the ball away.
 
Jimmy-g said:
Thanks for that, I will look at him in a different way and look for the things you see.

By running alongside the game I mean that he gets passed very easy, I still think he cannot tackle, the position he plays in he should always try to be facing the play and to me he gets passed by and has to give away silly fouls while chasing back.

I will take your points on board and see if I am being harsh on him.
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WHAT THE HELL?!

Someone wrote a post featuring some fairly contentious statements...then someone took the time to write a detailed and well-reasoned response...and then the original poster just took it on board sensibly and wrote a nice reply.

Bloody hell, but The Internet has changed since I last looked ;-)
 
Jimmy-g said:
I cannot for the life of me see what the fuss is over Bentaleb, would you please explain to me what you think his strengths are, In my view he does not score goals, he does not create goals, rarely passes forward, weak in the tackle and worse of all runs along side the game instead of influencing it, I am being serious Braineclipse would you tell me your opinion on him.
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All of which I saw thrown at Modric prior to the threat of him being poached by Chelsea reared its head, at which time he became the best player ever who would be a devastating loss.

Carrick too.
 
parklane1 said:
Modric is world class and one of the best CM players I have seen in 50 years of watching football, I very much doubt that Bentalab will ever reach those hights. As for what he was doing at the same age well Modric was a regular in the Dinamo Zagreb team and his national team at 20 also. And according to Bilic was a star for both at that age, you will probably say Bentalab is the same but it all honesty its not the same level.
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It was the same level. There were many doubts over Modric's game at that age at Zagreb and for Croatia. That's why we managed to buy him in the first place as the only serious competition we had for his signature was Saudi Sportswashing Machine. If Modric had been the player you claim him to be at the same age as Bentaleb is now, we wouldn't have signed him, end of. Barcelona took Halilovic at 17 years old because he was a regular at that age.

I'm not putting down Modric, you understand, players develop at different rates and need different environments to reach their potential, but to say Modric was on another level to Bentaleb at the age he is, is just plain wrong. I'd say Bentaleb has reached a higher level at a younger age than Modric did, playing for a top 6 team in a top 5 European league at the age of 19/20 and playing in the world cup and African nations cup for his national team at the same age.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Takes the ball under pressure - always looking for it - rarely loses it - has a wide view of the pitch and often recycles the ball going forwards. He is strong and has a half decent shot.

For me he is the player most likely to go to a top team (over Kane), injuries permitting. Rolls Royce of a player.
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The taking the ball under pressure and not losing it is the key thing for me. That's what marks him out as essential for Poch's style of play and being competitive in the next few seasons. It's also what marks him out as having the potential to be a world-class midfielder.

It's the willingness to take responsibility and the confidence and technique to do so that marks his potential out.
 
NWND said:
It was the same level. There were many doubts over Modric's game at that age at Zagreb and for Croatia. That's why we managed to buy him in the first place as the only serious competition we had for his signature was Saudi Sportswashing Machine. If Modric had been the player you claim him to be at the same age as Bentaleb is now, we wouldn't have signed him, end of. Barcelona took Halilovic at 17 years old because he was a regular at that age.

I'm not putting down Modric, you understand, players develop at different rates and need different environments to reach their potential, but to say Modric was on another level to Bentaleb at the age he is, is just plain wrong. I'd say Bentaleb has reached a higher level at a younger age than Modric did, playing for a top 6 team in a top 5 European league at the age of 19/20 and playing in the world cup and African nations cup for his national team at the same age.
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Well we will have to agree to disagree, Modric was a star for a stronger international team then Bentalab, he destroyed England in the 2008 EC at the age of 22. There is a interview by Bilic who said at a young age Modric was astonishing and it was clear to him that he would be a great player.

Buts Stop! Hammer time and I guess we will never know until Bentalab is a world great playing for Madrid in the future.
 
parklane1 said:
Well we will have to agree to disagree, Modric was a star for a stronger international team then Bentalab, he destroyed England in the 2008 EC at the age of 22. There is a interview by Bilic who said at a young age Modric was astonishing and it was clear to him that he would be a great player.

Buts Stop! Hammer time and I guess we will never know until Bentalab is a world great playing for Madrid in the future.
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So Bentaleb has two years of development until he has to dominate against a England under McClaren level international side in a competitive game? I'd take that bet if I was a betting man I think.

Never think it's a good idea to take manager's word at face value when they in hindsight talk about how they rated a young player that went on to be a superstar. Are they all of a sudden going to say "I didn't think he was all that special" and look like they can't rate potential? I don't think so. The facts remain that he didn't leave the Croatian league(!) until 22-23 and then all the big clubs said "no thanks". I continue to doubt that at 20 it was a given that he would be a world class player.

Not really what will settle the discussion. The discussion right now is the potential being shown by both players at that young age. As I'm sure you know potential isn't always fulfilled.
 
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