Fans last night

[DubaiSpur]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

My guess (the word I used - not "assumption") was based on the fact that, according to your sig and some of your posts, you live in Canada. So unless you travel across the Atlantic to every home game, then you do not speak on the subject of the current poisonous atmosphere at White Hart Lane with the same authority as those of us who do attend every home game.

I live in Canada now,absolutely. There was a time fairly recently when I didn't, and also a time where I used to live in the UK. Like I said, please don't make assumptions about my experiences, with either Spurs fans at games or regular football fans elsewhere (for what it's worth, I own and use a TFC season ticket, and I have little doubt that fans are much the same wherever they are, save for some cosmetic differences here and there and a cultural dissimilarity across nations). If you still believe I have little authority to speak for angry Spurs fans at the Lane, then I can do little more to persuade you.

Once again, who said anything about making a difference? I'm merely venting about the people who are ruining my experience of attending matches just as you vented about Ade. And it's got nothing to do with considering myself to be a superior fan. Why should I tolerate the selfishness of fans whose negativity poisons us all?

Do you honestly believe that the language you're using when describing people who love the club as much as you do doesn't immediately sound like an implicit declaration of superiority over the 'negative' people around you?

Have I said or suggested or demanded anything of the sort?

Enough of these straw man arguments, please. You're intelligent and articulate enough not to have to invent them.

You consider angry fans a problem. I consider them a side-effect of a wider malaise affecting the club. And you don't treat side-effects, you treat the central problem if you want to cure the disease. Venting about fans being c*nts is therapeutic, but it ultimately gets us nowhere, and is dangerous in itself as it implies that the fans themselves are c*nts and were not made to act that way by the cumulative effects of modern football and a lack of 'customer support' from the club they love turning them into cynics. You mentioned that the fans were utter c*nts and deserved an utterly useless team. Again, looking back at that statement ,does it surprise you that I viewed it as a declarative statement that heavily suggested that the fans (and not the craven players or the tinny, somewhat soulless actions of the club) were to blame for the malaise we're in?

They're not the problem. But they are a problem. No two ways about it.

Like I said above, the fans are a symptom of a much wider malaise. By classing them in the main as c*nts, you are polarizing the fanbase even further and creating a 'with us or against us' syndrome. Don't stigmatize the fans around you as a problem: it is rarely the case that they are. Build a consensus amongst the fanbase as to the reasons behind this cynicism and discontent, and work out a solution in tandem with the club: this would be the way to solve an issue like the one we've got. Isolating the fanbase as a problem that needs solving without looking at the larger problem in the background is extremely unhelpful, as is the cowardice displayed by Ade and co. in their rush to disassociate themselves from their own actions over the past few years.

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Kaboul was getting booed by sections of the fans after 20 minutes yesterday. That is ****ing embarrassing and how is it meant to help the team?

It is not,but most prefer to have their prejudices reaffirmed than worry about the well being of the team. Poisonous is the word others have used and I agree with them. It is no fun at all to watch us play at the moment. Yes we are crap,but we were crap before. The thing I used to be proud of was our support. However if that has gone,what have we got ?

 

[Craig_J]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

It is not,but most prefer to have their prejudices reaffirmed than worry about the well being of the team. Poisonous is the word others have used and I agree with them. It is no fun at all to watch us play at the moment. Yes we are crap,but we were crap before. The thing I used to be proud of was our support. However if that has gone,what have we got ?

We've still got Bongani Khumalo.\o/

 

[Paxtonloudmouth]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

We've still got Bongani Khumalo.\o/

True.

 

[elltrev]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

I live in Canada now,absolutely. There was a time fairly recently when I didn't, and also a time where I used to live in the UK. Like I said, please don't make assumptions about my experiences, with either Spurs fans at games or regular football fans elsewhere (for what it's worth, I own and use a TFC season ticket, and I have little doubt that fans are much the same wherever they are, save for some cosmetic differences here and there and a cultural dissimilarity across nations). If you still believe I have little authority to speak for angry Spurs fans at the Lane, then I can do little more to persuade you.



Do you honestly believe that the language you're using when describing people who love the club as much as you do doesn't immediately sound like an implicit declaration of superiority over the 'negative' people around you?



You consider angry fans a problem. I consider them a side-effect of a wider malaise affecting the club. And you don't treat side-effects, you treat the central problem if you want to cure the disease. Venting about fans being c*nts is therapeutic, but it ultimately gets us nowhere, and is dangerous in itself as it implies that the fans themselves are c*nts and were not made to act that way by the cumulative effects of modern football and a lack of 'customer support' from the club they love turning them into cynics. You mentioned that the fans were utter c*nts and deserved an utterly useless team. Again, looking back at that statement ,does it surprise you that I viewed it as a declarative statement that heavily suggested that the fans (and not the craven players or the tinny, somewhat soulless actions of the club) were to blame for the malaise we're in?



Like I said above, the fans are a symptom of a much wider malaise. By classing them in the main as c*nts, you are polarizing the fanbase even further and creating a 'with us or against us' syndrome. Don't stigmatize the fans around you as a problem: it is rarely the case that they are. Build a consensus amongst the fanbase as to the reasons behind this cynicism and discontent, and work out a solution in tandem with the club: this would be the way to solve an issue like the one we've got. Isolating the fanbase as a problem that needs solving without looking at the larger problem in the background is extremely unhelpful, as is the cowardice displayed by Ade and co. in their rush to disassociate themselves from their own actions over the past few years.

Interesting debate guys. Might I suggest though that there needs to be a little more nuance around the fans that are being referred to as the booers. Just booing at full-time is very different to booing and hurling abuse at players throughout the entire match. And DubaiSpur, along the same lines, I think you're being a little idealistic about some of the booers - no doubt some are good people who have been driven to booing the club to protest against the things that you describe very eloquently. But come on, some are also just naturally clamish people who are naturally agressive and pessismistic and so enjoy hurling abuse and booing at any opportunity...

 

[tynesidespur]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Dubai I think you've made some excellent points about the current crop of players. I firmly believe they are more talented than some previous squads of the last 20 yards but are stealing a living by shirking responsibility, by hiding from the ball, not putting the effort or desired concentration levels in. They aren't at the level of the previous 5 years or so but they're better than they're producing.

I'm going to be absolutely honest about how I behave as a fan. I support the team passionately, I sing and encourage the players, I always join in the songs. If I think the ref is against us I will let fly at him about it. Similarly if an opposition player hurts one of our own I will give it to him with both barrels. I'm not one for digging out our own players but I have some understanding for those who did on Sunday.

For me a team builds up credit over several seasons. If we've been on a winning run and are suddenly 0-2 down at HT to crap like Burnley I would never boo them off or abuse them because they've earnt the right to support. On the other hand I think any goodwill towards this team has waned over the last 18 months with poor performances and several hammerings/abject capitulations. I think we've hit rock bottom and a 4th defeat in 5 home games was always likely to be the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't agree with getting on the team's back in the first 20 mins, that won't achieve anything. But at what point do you accept the level of performance against Stoke? I can tolerate about 75 mins before I start groaning at misplaced passes and the like. Do I boo? No but as I say I can understand it.

So I'm not sure what sort of "fan" that makes me but its who I am and I personally can't believe we've replaced club stalwarts like Dawson with some of the spineless clowns we've got on display now.

 

[NWND]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Dubai I think you've made some excellent points about the current crop of players. I firmly believe they are more talented than some previous squads of the last 20 yards but are stealing a living by shirking responsibility, by hiding from the ball, not putting the effort or desired concentration levels in. They aren't at the level of the previous 5 years or so but they're better than they're producing.

I'm going to be absolutely honest about how I behave as a fan. I support the team passionately, I sing and encourage the players, I always join in the songs. If I think the ref is against us I will let fly at him about it. Similarly if an opposition player hurts one of our own I will give it to him with both barrels. I'm not one for digging out our own players but I have some understanding for those who did on Sunday.

For me a team builds up credit over several seasons. If we've been on a winning run and are suddenly 0-2 down at HT to crap like Burnley I would never boo them off or abuse them because they've earnt the right to support. On the other hand I think any goodwill towards this team has waned over the last 18 months with poor performances and several hammerings/abject capitulations. I think we've hit rock bottom and a 4th defeat in 5 home games was always likely to be the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't agree with getting on the team's back in the first 20 mins, that won't achieve anything. But at what point do you accept the level of performance against Stoke? I can tolerate about 75 mins before I start groaning at misplaced passes and the like. Do I boo? No but as I say I can understand it.

So I'm not sure what sort of "fan" that makes me but its who I am and I personally can't believe we've replaced club stalwarts like Dawson with some of the spineless clowns we've got on display now.

The treatment of Aaron Lennon is also bewildering too.

Particulatrly since he seemed to have a good pre-season and be right up Poch's street tactically and work rate wise.

It saddens me seeing him rot in the reserve squad and thinking of him burning past AC Milans defence in the Champions League

 

[tynesidespur]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

The treatment of Aaron Lennon is also bewildering too.

Particulatrly since he seemed to have a good pre-season and be right up Poch's street tactically and work rate wise.

It saddens me seeing him rot in the reserve squad and thinking of him burning past AC Milans defence in the Champions League

I quite agree and equally I don't understand some fans eagerness to ditch these players for "upgrades" who have taken us backwards.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

I live in Canada now,absolutely. There was a time fairly recently when I didn't, and also a time where I used to live in the UK. Like I said, please don't make assumptions about my experiences, with either Spurs fans at games or regular football fans elsewhere (for what it's worth, I own and use a TFC season ticket, and I have little doubt that fans are much the same wherever they are, save for some cosmetic differences here and there and a cultural dissimilarity across nations). If you still believe I have little authority to speak for angry Spurs fans at the Lane, then I can do little more to persuade you.



Do you honestly believe that the language you're using when describing people who love the club as much as you do doesn't immediately sound like an implicit declaration of superiority over the 'negative' people around you?



You consider angry fans a problem. I consider them a side-effect of a wider malaise affecting the club. And you don't treat side-effects, you treat the central problem if you want to cure the disease. Venting about fans being c*nts is therapeutic, but it ultimately gets us nowhere, and is dangerous in itself as it implies that the fans themselves are c*nts and were not made to act that way by the cumulative effects of modern football and a lack of 'customer support' from the club they love turning them into cynics. You mentioned that the fans were utter c*nts and deserved an utterly useless team. Again, looking back at that statement ,does it surprise you that I viewed it as a declarative statement that heavily suggested that the fans (and not the craven players or the tinny, somewhat soulless actions of the club) were to blame for the malaise we're in?



Like I said above, the fans are a symptom of a much wider malaise. By classing them in the main as c*nts, you are polarizing the fanbase even further and creating a 'with us or against us' syndrome. Don't stigmatize the fans around you as a problem: it is rarely the case that they are. Build a consensus amongst the fanbase as to the reasons behind this cynicism and discontent, and work out a solution in tandem with the club: this would be the way to solve an issue like the one we've got. Isolating the fanbase as a problem that needs solving without looking at the larger problem in the background is extremely unhelpful, as is the cowardice displayed by Ade and co. in their rush to disassociate themselves from their own actions over the past few years.

Usually I would try and write something well written to jump in here, but I can't be bothered, I think the actual truth is as clear as day here.

Let's say hypothetically that the poor performances and the fans general attitude was down to a wider malaise affecting football. Or the club. Or whatever. Are you going to argue that fans being 'the bigger men' so to speak wouldn't be helpful compared to a the fans deciding that 'the players are spineless and so won't get my support until they've earnt it'. One attitude is not helpful. One attitude would be. One attitude is childish. The other attitude is more mature. Jimmy's 'insults' on the previous page weren't anything of the sort. They are factual adjectives to describe how our fans react. Do our players honestly deserve to be called '****ing *****', or groaned at, every time a pass is mis-placed? Even if Capoue laughed with Cameron, a fellow professional? For all we know Capoue was probably looking for any sort of light relief to allow his mental state to escape the macaronic negativity that engulfs every home game. Even if Ade brought some opposition friends into the dressing room, does that really negate his points that a support that backs the team would lead to more confidence on the pitch? Are you seriously suggesting that support would not help, and that any professional should be able to suck it up and put the maximum performance in, in spite of the atmosphere? I'm not talking about effort here, I'm talking about confidence and inspiration. You just don't get that if someone tells you that you are **** for misplacing a pass or getting tackled because you tried something a bit difference.

Also, nobody seems to have answered me Lee Young-Pyo question on the previous page. What was more helpful to him and the team that day? Booing the living daylights out of him the next time he touched the ball, or roaring the team on and giving him a massive cheer the time after that, as if to show the idiots that did boo that they didn't represent the true feelings of the fans that day, and that we were going to support them come what may?

I don't think the 'actions of the club' or the 'malaise of football' give fans any excuse to jump on the backs of players when mistakes are made. And I don't think Ade is looking for an excuse either, in fact there is an exact quote in his statement that says the opposite.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

[tweet]531915972727545856[/tweet]

Now this is really helpful and certainly don't make us look like a joke club.

Absolutely embarrassing. These guys actually represent us. Ugh.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Absolutely embarrassing. These guys actually represent us. Ugh.

Its embarrassing.
This should be an internal discussion, not players and fan groups making jibes at each other through the media, while the rest of the football world looks on and laughs.

 

[SpurSF]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

I quite agree and equally I don't understand some fans eagerness to ditch these players for "upgrades" who have taken us backwards.

My issue with Lennon is that he has been an ineffectual player for the last season and a half. He's played a lot of minutes for Spurs in the last 18 months, and he's had one goal and three assists in that time. He's just not a productive enough player to play with one striker, and he just doesn't strike fear in defenses, especially when teams aren't rolling their defense to the left because Bale was over there. I'm not saying he's ****; he's actually one of my favorite Tottenham players ever, but I can't rationalize him getting minutes over the developing players in our team.

 

[chicken_badge]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Adebayor is right. Whether it is wise for him to speak up though as a Tottenham player is a different matter.

I say, why not? It might stop some of the negativity. At the end of the day, all Spurs supporters want to see the team do well so if the message from the players is "look guys, you're really not helping" then maybe that will get through to some.

I find it interesting that it is Adebayor who has spoken up. A player never really loved by a large section of the fans, hated by a significant number previously and maybe now. One of the big players at the moment, a senior and also the vice captain. I reckon he probably IS echoing the thoughts of the team. So why not captain Kaboul? Why not most respected pro Hugo? Why not flavour of the month Kane? I think he has put himself in the firing line ahead of the other senior pros lacking confidence, the young kids who are getting judged so early, the manager who is still getting to grips with the squad, the club. It's a longshot but actually I take it as a positive sign as to the dynamics in the dressing room.

I love Tottenham, but the crowd, my fellow supporters, have on the whole been too often a neutral if not a negative factor on my match day experience. At league games, where about 80% of the fans will still be ST holders, I rarely find people are friendly. I sit in the North, East, South and West, Upper and Lower, and ALWAYS get some idiot sitting behind me full of criticism for some spacegoat of the other. Cup games are normally a load better because the ST % drops. Of course, I'm not suggesting that all ST holders are Victor Meldrews. But I do think a lot of them forgot what they are doing there. They go along out of routine, and are too scared to quit because they know how hard it is to get their ST back. But the whole swathes of blue seat thing on 85 minutes is embarrassing and makes me angry. I have a longer journey than most fans on a match day and I have never left before the final whistle.

We all looked forward to this stack of something like 7 out of 9 matches at home in October/November and it feels like a disaster. Yet it's the league where we have fallen woefully short. The cups - admittedly against weaker, but still fighting teams - have seen a better spirit. Away league performances have yield results. Only one defeat, at the current champions. Where is it going pitifully wrong? Home league matches, and we are in a rut. On the pitch, and in the stands. Are we better off playing away from home? Without a shadow of a doubt. Hell, the sooner we get out to Milton Keynes the better I say.

There's a lot right with the club, it's a great club and I love it. Today, there's a lot wrong as well though. And the home crowd, yes Adebayor, bang on the money.

 

[SpurSF]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Dubai I think you've made some excellent points about the current crop of players. I firmly believe they are more talented than some previous squads of the last 20 yards but are stealing a living by shirking responsibility, by hiding from the ball, not putting the effort or desired concentration levels in. They aren't at the level of the previous 5 years or so but they're better than they're producing.

I'm going to be absolutely honest about how I behave as a fan. I support the team passionately, I sing and encourage the players, I always join in the songs. If I think the ref is against us I will let fly at him about it. Similarly if an opposition player hurts one of our own I will give it to him with both barrels. I'm not one for digging out our own players but I have some understanding for those who did on Sunday.

For me a team builds up credit over several seasons. If we've been on a winning run and are suddenly 0-2 down at HT to crap like Burnley I would never boo them off or abuse them because they've earnt the right to support. On the other hand I think any goodwill towards this team has waned over the last 18 months with poor performances and several hammerings/abject capitulations. I think we've hit rock bottom and a 4th defeat in 5 home games was always likely to be the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't agree with getting on the team's back in the first 20 mins, that won't achieve anything. But at what point do you accept the level of performance against Stoke? I can tolerate about 75 mins before I start groaning at misplaced passes and the like. Do I boo? No but as I say I can understand it.

So I'm not sure what sort of "fan" that makes me but its who I am and I personally can't believe we've replaced club stalwarts like Dawson with some of the spineless clowns we've got on display now.

You're aware we're level on points with Liverpool and Everton, and just one game behind Arsenal and Man United right? If that's rock bottom, I'd shudder to think what you considered most of the 2000's...

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

I live in Canada now,absolutely. There was a time fairly recently when I didn't, and also a time where I used to live in the UK. Like I said, please don't make assumptions about my experiences, with either Spurs fans at games or regular football fans elsewhere (for what it's worth, I own and use a TFC season ticket, and I have little doubt that fans are much the same wherever they are, save for some cosmetic differences here and there and a cultural dissimilarity across nations). If you still believe I have little authority to speak for angry Spurs fans at the Lane, then I can do little more to persuade you.

Once again, mate, I made no assumptions about anything. I merely hazarded a guess that, on account of living 3000+ miles away, you don't often get to attend home games these days. Was I wrong?

Listen.............we aren't talking about the past, are we? Whatever your experiences of attending games at WHL when you were living in the UK, they aren't quite as relevant to this specific discussion as the experiences of those who currently attend every home game. That's not an unreasonable assertion, surely?

Do you honestly believe that the language you're using when describing people who love the club as much as you do doesn't immediately sound like an implicit declaration of superiority over the 'negative' people around you?

I don't care what it might sound like. As I said, I'm merely venting about the people who have ruined so many others' experience of attending games at WHL. And as a consequence of their lack of consideration for other fans, they have forfeited any automatic respect as Spurs fans (and human beings, for that matter) that I would otherwise have afforded them.

You consider angry fans a problem. I consider them a side-effect of a wider malaise affecting the club. And you don't treat side-effects, you treat the central problem if you want to cure the disease. Venting about fans being c*nts is therapeutic, but it ultimately gets us nowhere, and is dangerous in itself as it implies that the fans themselves are c*nts and were not made to act that way by the cumulative effects of modern football and a lack of 'customer support' from the club they love turning them into cynics. You mentioned that the fans were utter c*nts and deserved an utterly useless team. Again, looking back at that statement ,does it surprise you that I viewed it as a declarative statement that heavily suggested that the fans (and not the craven players or the tinny, somewhat soulless actions of the club) were to blame for the malaise we're in?

We've had many worse teams before; been in many far darker places as a club. But we've never had such corrosive fans as this. Making excuses for them, as if they bear no responsibility for their actions, will not wash. Sure, modern football is partly to blame; ticket prices are partly to blame; the players are partly to blame; Daniel Levy is partly to blame. But the poisonous fans can't absolve themselves of all responsibility. A football club's relationship with its fans is, to an extent, a symbiosis. And that means that fans have a part to play. They aren't mere passengers. So destructively negative fans are far more than a mere, inevitable side effect. They are also a cause.

And they are most definitely a problem. You've already made abundantly clear your disdain for the claim that a negative atmosphere can have a negative effect on the players. So I won't attempt to persuade you otherwise. But I will instead say that the negative atmosphere is indisputably having a profoundly negative effect on other fans and many of them that I know, or know of, have already decided to give up their season tickets at the end of this season. Others are seriously giving it consideration - me among them. These are fans who have been regulars at the Lane for twenty years and more. They've seen the very worst of Spurs and stuck with it throughout - never losing the love. But they just can't abide the poisonous atmosphere any more. It's making them deeply unhappy. That's what's driving them away.

Spurs can't afford to start haemorrhaging fans. Not with a new stadium on the way. So yes.............the corrosive fans are a major problem.

Like I said above, the fans are a symptom of a much wider malaise. By classing them in the main as c*nts, you are polarizing the fanbase even further and creating a 'with us or against us' syndrome. Don't stigmatize the fans around you as a problem: it is rarely the case that they are. Build a consensus amongst the fanbase as to the reasons behind this cynicism and discontent, and work out a solution in tandem with the club: this would be the way to solve an issue like the one we've got. Isolating the fanbase as a problem that needs solving without looking at the larger problem in the background is extremely unhelpful, as is the cowardice displayed by Ade and co. in their rush to disassociate themselves from their own actions over the past few years.

You're putting the onus for action on the wrong fans. It isn't the likes of me who need to ask the malcontents what they're unhappy about. We already know. They tell us about it every ****ing minute of every ****ing match. And besides, the rest of us share pretty much exactly the same sentiments. We just choose not to air them over and over, ad nauseam, as if our opinions were especially important and original.

What would be really ****ing nice is if the people you are defending asked the likes of me about the reasons for my discontent and then, as far as possible, amended their ways out of consideration for their fellow Spurs fans. You want consensus? That would be the best way to start.

 

[monkeybarry]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Football is an inconsistent game, therefore its near on impossible to know what to expect before you turn up. Nothing on the pitch is guaranteed, the only thing that realistically can be guaranteed or should be is the support for the team and that's comes from the fans, the fans have that opportunity to get behind the team game in game out and that could become a guarantee each game, the problem is its not.

The only thing that should realistically be expected is 100% effort from the professional sports men - and I don't think many of ours players can say that applies to them.

Fans get to choose how they support the team.
But I do agree the attitude of many spurs fans post CL has been appalling and delusional with false expectation of grandeur.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

What would be really ****ing nice is if the people you are defending asked the likes of me about the reasons for my discontent and then, as far as possible, amended their ways out of consideration for their fellow Spurs fans. You want consensus? That would be the best way to start.

Out of interest, what makes you think they should modify their behaviour to make you happy?

I suspect if any of them are reading your posts they can probably think of a number of things you could go and do which would make them happy.

 

[monkeybarry]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Absolutely embarrassing. These guys actually represent us. Ugh.

They don't represent me.

Who voted for them?

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Out of interest, what makes you think they should modify their behaviour to make you happy?

I suspect if any of them are reading your posts they can probably think of a number of things you could go and do which would make them happy.

Because we're all Spurs fans? Because we're supposed to be on the same side?

Listen, I don't expect anything that I suggested would ever come to pass. Mine was merely a hypothetical response to Dubai's hypothetical suggestion.

 

[monkeybarry]

Re: Emmanuel Adebayor

Mate actually listen to what he is saying. He is completely right. Support, and the confidence that comes with it, is a vital part of what should constitute home advantage.

This isn't an argument about who earns how much money and who has the right to boo. This is a point he is making about how the atmosphere at the stadium affects the confidence of the entire team. And the reason he is likely made one of the vice captains, is because he has got the balls to come out and say this, and take the flack, on behalf of all the players.

He's completely right,

You are completely right, as is Ade - in that politician way where they choose the subject very carefully but actually miss the point entirely.

If thy players want nice positive, cozy atmosphere then I suggest they damn well earn it with football and effort that deserves it.
He is living in pampered football land.
I want himout of my club on 1st Jan.