Ex-managers: I'm pining for the past and cannot move on

[diego_maradona]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I mentioned it in another thread

BMJ = Success (Motivator)
Ramos = Failure (Rules/disciplinarian)
Harry = Success (Motivator)
AVB = Failure (System/rules)
Sherwood = Success? (Motivator) - side note, my evaluation of TS was as a interim coach
Poch = ??? (System/Rules)

Anyone else see a pattern there?

Harsh on AVB. He was the manager that got us our highest points total. Yes that papers over a lot of cracks (well Bale did) but it's hard to say he's a complete failure. If Sherwood is then AVB was

 

[scaramanga]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I mentioned it in another thread

BMJ = Success (Motivator)
Ramos = Failure (Rules/disciplinarian)
Harry = Success (Motivator)
AVB = Failure (System/rules)
Sherwood = Success? (Motivator) - side note, my evaluation of TS was as a interim coach
Poch = ??? (System/Rules)

Anyone else see a pattern there?

I see two.

1) Your personal bias
2) Motivators going for short term results at the expense of long term structural improvement

 

[Raziel]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Harsh on AVB. He was the manager that got us our highest points total. Yes that papers over a lot of cracks (well Bale did) but it's hard to say he's a complete failure. If Sherwood is then AVB was

Caveat on success in terms of relative starting position. But try to remember, the style of play, the "feeling" around the club, the attitude of the players

AVB got good results but had the best starting position of all of them, and you never felt the players were playing out of their skins for him, you never felt the fanbase believed in his brand of football

 

[Raziel]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I see two.

1) Your personal bias
2) Motivators going for short term results at the expense of long term structural improvement

My bias? something you disagree with?
Harry had 4 years, in todays managerial landscape, hardly short term results

 

[diego_maradona]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Caveat on success in terms of relative starting position. But try to remember, the style of play, the "feeling" around the club, the attitude of the players

AVB got good results but had the best starting position of all of them, and you never felt the players were playing out of their skins for him, you never felt the fanbase believed in his brand of football

I think it's a bit unfair. He lost Modric who basically made us sexy to watch. He chose to let VdV go I guess, but also lost King who improved everyone around him and was Mr Tottenham.

I think he done well to keep going. Granted he had Bale. But yes the feeling toward the end was that it was boring, but in his first year there were good memories. Good away wins in particular. We all felt it would get better at that stage

 

[Cochise]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

My bias? something you disagree with?
Harry had 4 years, in todays managerial landscape, hardly short term results

Looking back through our history, Redknapp, Burkinshaw and Nicholson are the only ones who got given a good amount of time and are probably the most succesful. I'd definately say that Poch needs time as well as the right players before we think about sending him packing. AVB had this up until the Man UTD result and then things started to settle.

One thing I will say is that listening to former players of his as well as some of our current is that he's not completely aloof like some people claim. A lot of good pro's rate him and enjoyed working with/for him. I really just think that the problem is getting the players to act as a unit.

 

[Raziel]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I think it's a bit unfair. He lost Modric who basically made us sexy to watch. He chose to let VdV go I guess, but also lost King who improved everyone around him and was Mr Tottenham.

I think he done well to keep going. Granted he had Bale. But yes the feeling toward the end was that it was boring, but in his first year there were good memories. Good away wins in particular. We all felt it would get better at that stage

Mate, I was all for what AVB stood for, I fell for the sale as much as anyone, young, progressive manager that would make the whole more than the sum of the parts, build a system that would allow young/new players to slot right in.

The problem is, it barely lasted a season, and while he helped Bale I can't say I ever felt like we were better than the sum, that we had players playing out of their skin for him.

I'm not trying to make this a BMJ/Harry = good, AVB/Poch = bad type of conversation.

I'm saying, for whatever reason, motivator type managers in the last 7-9 years at the club seemed to have a more impactful overall effect that rules/system types ...

 

[Baleforce]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

AVB's first season was my happiest as Spurs fan, we rarely looked like losing, after the everton come back we didn't do any "sexy" **** all season, we were bloody effective.

 

[Andyandy]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I mentioned it in another thread

BMJ = Success (Motivator)
Ramos = Failure (Rules/disciplinarian)
Harry = Success (Motivator)
AVB = Failure (System/rules)
Sherwood = Success? (Motivator) - side note, my evaluation of TS was as a interim coach
Poch = ??? (System/Rules)

Anyone else see a pattern there?

Nice summary. I would also like to add that only Harry Redknapp had more than 2 seasons of PL experience before starting. Furthermore you couldn't even say that any of the others were particularly experienced even outside the PL. This experience might have been the reason why he had an impact from the beginning as he knew how to set a side up to play with the players they have rather than the player that they want.

First of all, there appear to be only 2 types of coach, a young-ish and inexperienced flavour-of-the-month or somebody who is past-it/a failure. Why is that?

Secondly, the reality is that there is only one once in a generation manager/coach like Jose Mourinho (who just got-it without the direct experience). Levy has gone back to the same formula for picking the coach 3 times (like Ramos/AVB and Poch), just because somebody is young and from Spanish/Portuguese football doesn't mean anything.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

AVB's first season was my happiest as Spurs fan, we rarely looked like losing, after the everton come back we didn't do any "sexy" **** all season, we were bloody effective.

Erm, 5-2 to scum anyone?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I mentioned it in another thread

BMJ = Success (Motivator)
Ramos = Failure (Rules/disciplinarian)
Harry = Success (Motivator)
AVB = Failure (System/rules)
Sherwood = Success? (Motivator) - side note, my evaluation of TS was as a interim coach
Poch = ??? (System/Rules)

Anyone else see a pattern there?

Can you do a similar analysis on team that have been successful/won silverware over the past 5 years?

We are lagging behind our rivals principally because we've not backed a progressive manager to drag us into this century yet.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Erm, 5-2 to scum anyone?

that was before everton

 

[billyiddo]

So, the big elephant in the room...

If you added Bale, Modric and King to our squad as they were when Harry first came in then I think we'd probably have seen King retiring through injury and Modric and Bale never becoming World class because they would've been chopped and changed and not given a gameplan to play to. In fact let's like Modric and Bale to Ericksen and Lamela.... both look completely lost as to what is expected of them, the areas of the pitch that they are supposed to be working in and the role they have within this team.

Because Redknapp was the only manager to deal with an injury prone King? :rio:

Lamela and Eriksen have been ever presents this season in the same positions so not sure what chopping and changing you are refering to? And that's before i even mention that you're talking about two different players entirely and comparing 11 league games with the hindsight of 3.5 seasons

 

[Jordinho]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Redknapp wanted to take us higher, he wanted Hazard in that Jan window, he wanted Remy, Tevez too iirc. Vertonghen was identified to replace King, Dembele to come in the summer too.

All this whilst he was in court and also hitching up his skirt in the FA's direction.

Levy decided to go in a different direction instead.

Letting go of Redknapp wasn't so much the problem, hiring AVB was the wrong choice. I said it then and I still stick with it, Martinez was the one who should have taken over from Redknapp

How come Everton are only ahead of us on goal difference, having spent considerable amounts this summer to get the players Martinez wanted? He's already had a whole season to implement his ideas and made minimal changes to the squad.

Rodgers was another one we should have gotten over AVB. How's he doing?

 

[paxtonwolf]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I miss Burky!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was by far the highlight of my day yesterday. Brought a little tear to my eye when he came ouut. A Spurs legend. It wouldnt happen, but we could with him back at the club in some capacity.

He knew..(there used to be a football club over there..)

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I see two.

1) Your personal bias
2) Motivators going for short term results at the expense of long term structural improvement

Scara - I don't think you answered my question from last night. So I'll ask again.... Why do you feel that this group of players are now a 'bunch of losers' whereas in the second half of last season you felt our manager was under achieving with those same players? (and we've actually gone and spent about £30 million since then)

Are the players perhaps not that bad after all and our current manager is simply getting nowhere near the best out of them? Or was our caretaker manager in the second half of last season actually doing a good job with 'a bunch of losers'?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Youre starting to sound like a broken record (and im using that in the most favourable manner for you). Its tedious and boring. The facts speak for themselves, we challenged we were entertaining we were all entertained. It was people on here thinking that there is better - the last three years have proved otherwise. We have regressed. We have worse players.

People keep on harping on about the likes of Crouch, Defoe et al yet Harry got those players to produce for us. Youre citing them as if they were bad players and inferior to the current crop - well I have news for you - theyre not. They were better than this lot we have masquerading as THFC footballers.

All this 4231 *******s people were seduced by. Its all *******s. Football is a simple game complicated by a bunch of idiots who think that there is more to it and seduced by it.

What is staggering is people still think we are in a better position than under Harrys regime which is ofcourse *******s and people still think that the likes of Parker and Defoe et al have been serupseded appropriately and sufficiently by the likes of Capoue and ****ing Lamela.

I am happy to progress with Poch but the way he is trying to progress us will lead to him being sacked because we will be nearer the bottom than the top for some time

He needs to recognise that he needs to make staggered progressive changes rather than a revolution overnight

We currently look unmotivated and disjointed and a long long way from developing a style to suit Poch

I'm still amazed that we have people saying Pochs system is the answer when so far it has been the problem as clearly we don't currently have the players to suit it

In any business I have worked in the first thing I look for are quick wins and opportunities to have an impact... The exact opposite of what has been avoided by AVB and Poch at a club with a shirt term mentality. It's actually career suicide

You can build long term once you have a foundation to build on but no manager will get that foundation if they can't actually justify the time but developing something

 

[billyiddo]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

oooh are you starting to waver Bill? where is the blind absolute faith in everything levy

I wouldn't say i have blind faith in Levy Chich - although no doubt others would disagree...

I simply think the way he wants us to operate is what is best for the club and what is our best chance of acheiving success. Of course he will get decisions wrong from time to time, which he has but until it reaches a point where we are massively underacheiving for a consistent period or he puts the club in danger then i don't see any reason to wish for somene else coming in.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I am happy to progress with Poch but the way he is trying to progress us will lead to him being sacked because we will be nearer the bottom than the top for some time

He needs to recognise that he needs to make staggered progressive changes rather than a revolution overnight

We currently look unmotivated and disjointed and a long long way from developing a style to suit Poch

I'm still amazed that we have people saying Pochs system is the answer when so far it has been the problem as clearly we don't currently have the players to suit it

In any business I have worked in the first thing I look for are quick wins and opportunities to have an impact... The exact opposite of what has been avoided by AVB and Poch at a club with a shirt term mentality. It's actually career suicide

You can build long term once you have a foundation to build on but no manager will get that foundation if they can't actually justify the time but developing something

I am actually struggling to see what that 'system' is, as it's clear we're not doing any pressing of the opposition. In just about every game so far the opposition have out worked us in this respect (I would say with the exception of QPR and Sunderland - who both took the other option and sat off of us completely). Teams (especially all other than the top 4 or 5) used to come to WHL, sit back, park the bus and hope to nick something. Now even the Stoke's, WBAs and Saudi Sportswashing Machine's of this World are instead coming to WHL and outplaying us.

People (me included) are concerned by the lack of defensive shape and discipline, but I am even more concerned by our lack of ability to create chances - especially when we seemingly have so many attacking players on the pitch.

 

[Raziel]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I am happy to progress with Poch but the way he is trying to progress us will lead to him being sacked because we will be nearer the bottom than the top for some time

He needs to recognise that he needs to make staggered progressive changes rather than a revolution overnight

We currently look unmotivated and disjointed and a long long way from developing a style to suit Poch

I'm still amazed that we have people saying Pochs system is the answer when so far it has been the problem as clearly we don't currently have the players to suit it

In any business I have worked in the first thing I look for are quick wins and opportunities to have an impact... The exact opposite of what has been avoided by AVB and Poch at a club with a shirt term mentality. It's actually career suicide

You can build long term once you have a foundation to build on but no manager will get that foundation if they can't actually justify the time but developing something

So much this ...