Euro 2016 - Crowd Trouble

[braineclipse]

Does that mean they've been disqualified? Or that it is a suspended sentence - i.e. only disqualified if they do it again. I suspect the latter?

Suspended disqualification surely means they get disqualified if it happens again?

I know picking on UEFA is the thing people do when stuff like this happens, but I think they've reacted quite well. Warn teams that this could get you suspended. Seems harsh on England based on what's come out, but the warning is still fair to prevent any retaliation. Then hit Russia with a suspended disqualification.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Does that mean they've been disqualified? Or that it is a suspended sentence - i.e. only disqualified if they do it again. I suspect the latter?

Sly confirms that the disqualification will apply if there is any further trouble such as that inside the stadium the other night :

Russia has been handed a suspended disqualification from Euro 2016 over crowd disturbances at the game against England in Marseille.

UEFA announced its decision as a group of Russian football fans faced being thrown out of France - and GoPro footage appeared to demonstrate that attacks on English supporters in Marseille before the match were well-planned.

The Russian football federation was also fined €150,000 - and the national team will be kicked out of the tournament if there is any repeat of the violence inside the Stade Velodrome in its remaining games, UEFA said.

The identities of 29 Russian fans were being checked at a hotel near the southern French port city, but authorities told AFP a decision had already been taken to move some of them to a holding centre at the border.
French police are checking to see if any of the Russians are on a list of supporters "considered a risk", said Francois-Xavier Lauch, a top local official in the Alpes-Maritimes area.

The head of a Russian supporters' group said a bus carrying fans on their way to Lille - where there are fears of further violence this week - was stopped near Cannes.
"They want to deport almost 50 people including women who did not take part in anything," Alexander Shprygin, president of the Russian Supporters Union, told Reuters by phone.

"The police are making up for their mistakes three days ago.

"We are in a bus in Cannes and we have been blocked in by riot police. We are not going anywhere for the time being."

He later said the Russian consul had arrived on the scene, preventing what he said was a planned storming of the bus by the police.

Euro 2016 organisers are concerned about the presence of 150 hardcore Russian hooligans who orchestrated violence in Marseille and who the French authorities have described as "hyper violent and hyper rapid".

GoPro footage posted online by Russian thugs suggests some of the scenes in Marseille that have overshadowed the start of the tournament were premeditated and well-orchestrated.

A five-minute video shows a group of Russians approaching a main square where English fans were drinking on 11 June, before the two countries faced each other in their Group B opener.

They arm themselves with iron bars, chairs and bottles before attacking England fans, fighting running battles through the streets of the city as their targets flee.

The individual wearing the camera around his waist - who can be clearly identified from press photographs of the violence - is seen appearing to stamp on an England supporter at one point.

The Kremlin has urged Russian fans in France not to react to "provocations" and called on Russian sporting officials to use their influence to ensure supporters behave themselves.

http://news.sky.com/story/1711755/euro-2016-suspended-disqualification-for-russia

 

[Hidden]

Does that mean they've been disqualified? Or that it is a suspended sentence - i.e. only disqualified if they do it again. I suspect the latter?

Yeah, the latter. And it's because of events which happened on the stadium. UEFA doesn't give a fck what happened on the streets of Marseile before and after the game.
Hopefully Russia vs Wales will be a normal peaceful game. At least inside the stadium as Russian ultras seem to attack Wales ultras/fans outside.

 

[braineclipse]

Yeah, the latter. And it's because of events which happened on the stadium. UEFA doesn't give a fck what happened on the streets of Marseile before and after the game.
Hopefully Russia vs Wales will be a normal peaceful game. At least inside the stadium as Russian ultras seem to attack Wales ultras/fans outside.

I don't think that's true.

 

[Hidden]

I don't think that's true.

well, judjing their decision and at least on paper it's not their jurisdiction or, in other case, England should have got a suspended ban as well

 

[braineclipse]

well, judjing their decision and at least on paper it's not their jurisdiction or, in other case, England should have got a suspended ban as well

There is the question of jurisdiction. But that doesn't mean that UEFA doesn't care.

I've not seen anything to indicate that what the England fans did outside the stadium were anywhere near as bad, or at least as obviously and easily proven to be bad, as what the Russian fans did in (and outside) the stadium.

What would you say are the examples of English fans acting as badly as Russian fans have acted?

 

[Hidden]

There is the question of jurisdiction. But that doesn't mean that UEFA doesn't care.

I've not seen anything to indicate that what the England fans did outside the stadium were anywhere near as bad, or at least as obviously and easily proven to be bad, as what the Russian fans did in (and outside) the stadium.

What would you say are the examples of English fans acting as badly as Russian fans have acted?

You have a short memory, don't you? Marseile on Thursday and Friday. Thousands of drunk English fans had skirmishes with local arabs/Marseile ultras, destroyed several pubs (one of them was even on fire), turned streets into wastebaskets. I've seen several videos on uk Eurosport and it's a very objective resource. Six fans are sentenced already. Do you think it happened by mistake?

You should understand: I'm not trying to defend 200-300 Russian thugs who have nothing in common with football and travelled to France only to kick asses of other European firms and ex-ultras (who are mainly British), but to say that English fans behaved well and didn't do anything as bad is some kind of excess. In fact, English fans are one of the worst in terms of their foreign street behaviour (I've been to Ibiza and Cyprus several times and I know what I'm talking about). Also their past football culture is a red rag for modern east-European ultras who try to ego-trip themselves today (which is of course sad and shameful and, in fact, stupid and senseless).

Still the worst thing that happened was at the game, but France and UEFA should take a solid portion of blame for it as well.

And please, don't mix ordinary Russian fans who travelled with their families and peacefully watched the game among English fans on other sectors with brainless thugs who travelled to fight on fists. Russians are very hospitable people and to most of them meeting a foreigner in their domestic circle is some kind of unique experience. Speaking about WC18 which now understandebly worries more and more people, Russian police and special troops will never behave so passively as French ldid and all the inclinations of disorders will be put to bed instantly.

 

[braineclipse]

You have a short memory, don't you? Marseile on Thursday and Friday. Thousands of drunk English fans had skirmishes with local arabs/Marseile ultras, destroyed several pubs (one of them was even on fire), turned streets into wastebaskets. I've seen several videos on uk Eurosport and it's a very objective resource. Six fans are sentenced already. Do you think it happened by mistake?

You should understand: I'm not trying to defend 200-300 Russian thugs who have nothing in common with football and travelled to France only to kick asses of other European firms and ex-ultras (who are mainly British), but to say that English fans behaved well and didn't do anything as bad is some kind of excess. In fact, English fans are one of the worst in terms of their foreign street behaviour (I've been to Ibiza and Cyprus several times and I know what I'm talking about). Also their past football culture is a red rag for modern east-European ultras who try to ego-trip themselves today (which is of course sad and shameful and, in fact, stupid and senseless).

Still the worst thing that happened was at the game, but France and UEFA should take a solid portion of blame for it as well.

And please, don't mix ordinary Russian fans who travelled with their families and peacefully watched the game among English fans on other sectors with brainless thugs who travelled to fight on fists. Russians are very hospitable people and to most of them meeting a foreigner in their domestic circle is some kind of unique experience. Speaking about WC18 which now understandebly worries more and more people, Russian police and special troops will never behave so passively as French ldid and all the inclinations of disorders will be put to bed instantly.

So we agree that the worst thing that happened was at the game... Why do you think UEFA should have the same reaction towards England and Russia then? Surely the worst behavior warrants the strictest response?

Not least what happened at the game was obviously unprovoked and obviously thugs, bullies, hooligans, attacking people who only wanted to get away when attacked. I of course remember what happened earlier on in the city. But what English fans did there was at the very least not as obviously unprovoked as what happened at the stadium. Several reports have indicated that there too the English fans were attacked by others first. But we can speculate about this one way or the other for quite some time, we might not ever know exactly what happened. But what happened at the stadium we do actually know because it was all filmed. Of course that makes it easier for UEFA to dish out punishment.

I'm not saying all Russians are the same. Though some of the reactions from Russian officials are really worrying. As are reactions from the Russian media from what I've heard (via podcasts only). I think the reaction from the British press and officials would have been very different had there been English fans attacking opposing fans at the stadium like the Russian fans did. Surely you agree?

The police (and special troops) have a very difficult job in situations like these. I imagine the Russian approach will be a lot harsher and more immediate, and like in France I imagine mistakes will be made. I'm glad you understand why the 2018 world cup now worries people.

Edit 1: Suggesting that I had forgotten what had happened earlier in Marseille is beneath the level of discourse I expect on a serious topic such as this.

Edit 2: From what I've seen 6 English fans have been charged with offences. That's not the same as sentenced and it's on a different order of magnitude to what happened at the stadium.

 

[Hidden]

So we agree that the worst thing that happened was at the game... Why do you think UEFA should have the same reaction towards England and Russia then? Surely the worst behavior warrants the strictest response?

I mean, if UEFA judjed only events which took part on the stadium (and they did), Russia fully deserves their suspended disqualification.
But if UEFA really takes into consideration the overall situation, inside and outside the stadiums (which doesn't seem so), both teams should be punished because of their fans behaviour. However, both Federations were warned about possible disqualifications after streets riots.

I read on several Russian resources that one of English fans wiped his ass with Russian flag and it was one of the reasons riots on the stadium began. I can't say if this information 100% true and it's not really important, because when fans from one side (Russian) are keen to fight and fans from the other side (English) don't hide, point gestures, badmouth multiply on the fact that there are drunk fans from both sides, it's a disaster waiting to happen. French side has fully missed this moment.
Also, shamefully, local propaganda works well and people forget about real country problems, allegedly showing what kind of patriots and heroes they are, fighting innocent people. The same with your propaganda which currently shows Russians mainly as a thug nomad nation.

Though some of the reactions from Russian officials are really worrying.

Mudko and Lebedev are considered as brainless untalented clowns by vast majority of Russian people.
3-4 huge sport events in a row we're waiting when Mudko will be fired, but "miraculously" he uses to survive (and even became RFU president).

Suggesting that I had forgotten what had happened earlier in Marseille is beneath the level of discourse I expect on a serious topic such as this.

Didn't try to insult you, sorry. Sometimes I'm not that great with my thoughts expressions as English is not my native language and I have lack of practise.

That's not the same as sentenced

I read that they have been sentenced, from 2 to 3 months!

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I'd like to see this replace war as well. Let the powerhungry leaders sort it out mano a mano.

Putin v Cameron...meh

But Putin v Boris......hmmm...victory is ours

 

[braineclipse]

I mean, if UEFA judjed only events which took part on the stadium (and they did), Russia fully deserves their suspended disqualification.
But if UEFA really takes into consideration the overall situation, inside and outside the stadiums (which doesn't seem so), both teams should be punished because of their fans behaviour. However, both Federations were warned about possible disqualifications after streets riots.

So both Russia and Engalnd were warned about possible disqualifications after street riots. After that warning Russian fans openly attacked fans inside the stadium without any real aggression from England fans. UEFA respond with a suspended disqualification. This to you is unfair?

I read on several Russian resources that one of English fans wiped his ass with Russian flag and it was one of the reasons riots on the stadium began. I can't say if this information 100% true and it's not really important, because when fans from one side (Russian) are keen to fight and fans from the other side (English) don't hide, point gestures, badmouth multiply on the fact that there are drunk fans from both sides, it's a disaster waiting to happen. French side has fully missed this moment.
Also, shamefully, local propaganda works well and people forget about real country problems, allegedly showing what kind of patriots and heroes they are, fighting innocent people. The same with your propaganda which currently shows Russians mainly as a thug nomad nation.

The French could have done more, this doesn't excuse the Russian fans. The UEFA response is still correct.

There are obviously problems with the western media. Had the situation been reversed in the stadium with English fans attacking Russians that were just trying to get away I think the response in the British media would have been much less biased though. Problems on both sides does not equate the two.

Mudko and Lebedev are considered as brainless untalented clowns by vast majority of Russian people.
3-4 huge sport events in a row we're waiting when Mudko will be fired, but "miraculously" he uses to survive (and even became RFU president).

So a brainless untalented clown is the president of the RFU... Isn't this a serious reason to be worried about the 2018 WC?

Didn't try to insult you, sorry. Sometimes I'm not that great with my thoughts expressions as English is not my native language and I have lack of practise.

Fair enough.

I read that they have been sentenced, from 2 to 3 months!

I haven't seen that. Fair enough if that's the case.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

There are obviously problems with the western media. Had the situation been reversed in the stadium with English fans attacking Russians that were just trying to get away I think the response in the British media would have been much less biased though. Problems on both sides does not equate the two.

I think the one thing that can be said for sure is that the British media do not go easy on England football fans. Without intending to condone any organised or intentional violence, my impression for as long as I can remember is that our media cannot wait for the chance to shout from the rooftops about any trouble involving England fans, probably more so than other countries who have their own issues with football violence.
There's been a good bit of backtracking going on over the past couple of days.

 

[Hidden]

So both Russia and Engalnd were warned about possible disqualifications after street riots. After that warning Russian fans openly attacked fans inside the stadium without any real aggression from England fans. UEFA respond with a suspended disqualification. This to you is unfair?

Both Federations were warned by UEFA about possible sanctions on 12th June, after the match. And only Russia has been punished, because UEFA closes eyes on the events which happen outside the stadiums, making it host's responsibility and jurisdiction.

So a brainless untalented clown is the president of the RFU... Isn't this a serious reason to be worried about the 2018 WC?

Not one of the main reasons to worry, defenitely.

 

[braineclipse]

Both Federations were warned by UEFA about possible sanctions on 12th June, after the match. And only Russia has been punished, because UEFA closes eyes on the events which happen outside the stadiums, making it host's responsibility and jurisdiction.

But England have been warned. Presumably for what happened outside the stadium? Which you said was not as bad as what the Russians did in the stadium.

I struggle to see what it is you're trying to argue here. That UEFA should have punished both countries the same for two situations that were not as bad?

Not one of the main reasons to worry, defenitely.

What are the main reasons to worry then?

 

[Yiddo]

You have a short memory, don't you? Marseile on Thursday and Friday. Thousands of drunk English fans had skirmishes with local arabs/Marseile ultras, destroyed several pubs (one of them was even on fire), turned streets into wastebaskets. I've seen several videos on uk Eurosport and it's a very objective resource. Six fans are sentenced already. Do you think it happened by mistake?

You should understand: I'm not trying to defend 200-300 Russian thugs who have nothing in common with football and travelled to France only to kick asses of other European firms and ex-ultras (who are mainly British), but to say that English fans behaved well and didn't do anything as bad is some kind of excess. In fact, English fans are one of the worst in terms of their foreign street behaviour (I've been to Ibiza and Cyprus several times and I know what I'm talking about). Also their past football culture is a red rag for modern east-European ultras who try to ego-trip themselves today (which is of course sad and shameful and, in fact, stupid and senseless).

Still the worst thing that happened was at the game, but France and UEFA should take a solid portion of blame for it as well.

And please, don't mix ordinary Russian fans who travelled with their families and peacefully watched the game among English fans on other sectors with brainless thugs who travelled to fight on fists. Russians are very hospitable people and to most of them meeting a foreigner in their domestic circle is some kind of unique experience. Speaking about WC18 which now understandebly worries more and more people, Russian police and special troops will never behave so passively as French ldid and all the inclinations of disorders will be put to bed instantly.

Are you Russian?

 

[Whiffler]

Outside the stadium issues are more to do with the police.

Inside the stadium it is UEFA's baby, and that is where the trouble was predominantly from Russians.

I saw singing and taunting from English fans towrds the end (oops - stopped after the equaliser), but didn't see them with any Russian flags. Were any England fan to have done what was described I would have that as a hate crime - or whatever the local equivalent is. Even that is 'reported' as an individual act.

 

[Spurs7891]

What a irony ! Pro-Western Albania is rewarded for starting riots against anti-Western Serbia during pre-Euro match and gets free ticket to the final. And anti-Western Russia is punished for the same problem. Already the propaganda has started to destroy the WC 2018 in Russia. Western politics is killing football and sports !

Some people should know better. There was this country in Asia who had a strong football team in the 1970s and qualified to the 1980 Olympics with great pride. But their stupid government decided to blindly follow the US-led boycott of the Olympics. The result : they have never qualified for any major tournaments since then and is now the laughing stock of Asian football. The lesson : never follow the West blindly !

 

[jts1882]

There are two different sets of warnings.

Yesterday both Russian and England were warned about possible expulsion if there were repeats of the fighting outside the grounds.

Today, the investigation into events in the ground have led to the fines and suspended expulsion.

 

[Hidden]

But England have been warned. Presumably for what happened outside the stadium? Which you said was not as bad as what the Russians did in the stadium.

I struggle to see what it is you're trying to argue here. That UEFA should have punished both countries the same for two situations that were not as bad?

I didn't try to argue any of your points. Your argued mine about UEFA's relation to outside riots. So I tried to explain that even if outside events are fullfilled with cruelty (which English fans showed especially on Thursday/Friday and Russian ultra's thugs before and on match day), UEFA won't take strong actions as we've seen. If they did, both Russia and England should have already got a suspended disqualification judjing what their fans produced in Marseile.

What are the main reasons to worry then?

Racism and accomodation/infrastracture I reckon.

It's really interesting to me: is there a single person from GG who is still planning to travel?

 

[Hidden]

Are you Russian?

yes, I am