ENIC

[SpurMeUp]

Oh, and about this - so it's not any money he provides, nor any wisdom, which he has been severely lacking in for many years now. No, he simply existed for 20 years, and *that* is his commitment to us. And he pays himself the highest salary in the league for the privilege of existing here, too.

So no, mate - Tony Bloom actually sacrificed something to own Brighton, to the tune of 300m of his own money, *and* the time. Levy sacrificed nothing whatsoever - if he hadn't run Spurs he would have been running his Mr. Byrite discount clothing store and doing a no doubt bang up job of that.

Noted that you weren't able to reply to my post and questions

And that you are on a mission to spread disunity, as @LemonadeMoney and @DubSpur have highlighted, you only appear to put the boot in. No positivity coming from you whatsoever. Must be wierd watching games wanting us to lose so you can beat the anti-drum. Still each to their own. If sniping gives you pleasure so be it.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Noted that you weren't able to reply to my post and questions

And that you are on a mission to spread disunity, as @LemonadeMoney and @DubSpur have highlighted, you only appear to put the boot in. No positivity coming from you whatsoever. Must be wierd watching games wanting us to lose so you can beat the anti-drum. Still each to their own. If sniping gives you pleasure so be it.

I am not here 24/7 - just wait and I'll get around to it. You had like 5 long questions with yes/no responses you were snidely demanding answers to, as I recall.

As for the rest of it, soz mate. Been called worse by better, but amusing that I am apparently on a 'mission'.

 

[DubSpur]

It's true I don't spend all my waking hours on GG. I would think that is a healthy way to live life, but to each his own mate.

Did anyone say you do? I doubt anyone on here does, it's not RAWK, most on here will have jobs.
I would think it's not healthy to be so negative all the time.

 

[DubaiSpur]

- We've seen the likes of Villa, Everton etc spend crazy sums on their sides to no effect. It can actually be detrimental as when the cash runs out you are left with an unsustainable model. Will you credit Levy with increasing our spending power organically and sustainably? Y/N

- You are asking people to take money out their own pocket to accelerate Spurs, which is somewhat flawed. Unless you have unlimited funds based on say black gold under the earth, then such an approach is short-termist. How many clubs have we seen do this and crash and burn? More than have succeeded. Maybe Lecister is one that invested and got results. But would you take their success over our journey over the last 20 odd years? Y/N

- Would you do what you are asking others to do? Put your savings into the club Y/N? If no why would you expect others to do it?

- Are you able to concede Enic did invest 100m recently? Y/N So you are factually incorrect. It isn't "every-other club invests". Other clubs are run sustainably too. In fact long term the only clubs that aren't have oil money feeding them.

- Why are you feeling so down on yourself and your experience supporting the club? Almost victimising yourself. I've enjoyed the journey over the last 20 years. If I didn't I would enrich my life in some other way.

Right, so, to get back to all these questions I've answered many times before (honestly - nothing here's new mate, I've been the vocal minority on ENIC on this forum for half a decade)...

Will you credit Levy with increasing our spending power organically and sustainably? Y/N

I can and have. But I have also pointed out that a good proportion of that was growth of the Premier League itself, and we were just along for the ride by staying in it. On the revenue streams where a chairman has most control, commercial, we have been middling in comparison to all our rivals.

But would you take their success over our journey over the last 20 odd years? Y/N

I'd take a Premier League title, sure. When they sing 'Champions of England, you'll never sing that', it hurts because it's absolutely true and will be as long as ENIC are here. But since you (I think) intended to ask if I'd take being relegated if it meant we won a title - why would it come to that? The biggest fear of half of the dwindling band of ENIC defenders is 'doing a Leeds'. What about clubs that have invested without that happening? What about FSG at Liverpool, with titles and Champions Leagues? What about Tony Bloom at Brighton? What about Kroenke at Arsenal? Why is it that the example folks most like to use is a team that went down twenty years ago? Or Everton, or Villa - same concept. Why focus on what can go wrong rather than what can go right?

Would you do what you are asking others to do? Put your savings into the club Y/N? If no why would you expect others to do it?

You haven't been around long enough if you're asking that. One of the things I have argued long and hard about in the past is that I would rather us be fan-owned than owned by some clam of a billionaire. If we were like Germany where the fans owned 51% of the club, you bet your bottom dollar I would sink my savings into it. Even if we had to act responsibly and not spend, I would understand it and be happy because we were owned by all of us.

But as long as that is impossible and we are a plaything fof billionaires, I would rather one that benefits us as opposed to one that strangles us as Lewis does.

you are factually incorrect. It isn't "every-other club invests". Other clubs are run sustainably too. In fact long term the only clubs that aren't have oil money feeding them.

You're just...blatantly wrong. *Almost no club* is run sustainably in England, and few in Europe. Almost every PL haemorrhages losses every year, and about 60% of all teams in Europe do. This has been a thing as long as football has - clubs make losses, owners fund them. True in 1890, true in 1990, true today.

We are an exception in that we have an absentee owner and this straitjacket ourselves just because. Football has never worked that way, never will.

Why are you feeling so down on yourself and your experience supporting the club? Almost victimising yourself. I've enjoyed the journey over the last 20 years. If I didn't I would enrich my life in some other way.

Let me put it this way. When I was back home in Dubai during my uni days, we won the Carling Cup in 2008. I gleefully ran down the sandy streets barefoot, singing at the top of my breath, terrorising my neighbours.

When I was in my early 30s working in Ottawa, Moura scored the hat trick that got us to the CL final. I skipped down the street in the rain, twirling my suit jacket, jumping up onto dividers and walking along walls, scaring passersby as I sang my guts out with drunken joy.

I've written here before about my experiences travelling the world in my 20s, tuning in to catch Spurs at odd times from far-flung places. I posted about how one of my fondest memories was sitting in a guesthouse in Austria on one starry night the day we drew with United in the winter of 2008, cradling a cup of coffee and gazing at the stars as I was filled with the slowly warming, blissful feeling that, after the horror start to the season..everything would be alright in the end.

This club has defined me in many ways. It was my companion in childhood. It travelled with me on my journeys. It brought me to laughter, and tears. Even today, it annoys the life out of my partner.

It is my club. My one and only club. And one day, I'll pass it on to my kids, and them to theirs.

This isn't my story alone. It's yours, ours..everyone on this forum's.

And the reason why I despise the people who run it...is because they don't value it as I do. Or as you do. Or as we do. And it annoys me, saddens me, and fills me with regret because Levy and Lewis do not deserve this club, and they shackle us from being what we can be.

So, there's your answer. The highs are still high, but the lows are lower for me because I can see why they happen - it is because of the owners we are burdened with. That's the only difference between you and me, mate.

Hope that answers your questions.

 

[elltrev]

For all the disagreement with Dubai, it is fair to back him up and point out that ENIC are very unusual in precisely how little they’ve invested in the club:



So it’s not a dichotomy between ENIC’s total lack of investment and Emirates Marketing Project’s sugar daddies - ENIC could have invested a few tens of millions at key points to really help the club achieve its ambitions (the 2018 summer window springs to mind).

(Though personally I actually feel proud that we’re one of the few teams to be self-sustaining, and that we’ve had such relative success on the pitch in that time. Just a matter of taste though).

 

[Lilbaz]

For all the disagreement with Dubai, it is fair to back him up and point out that ENIC are very unusual in precisely how little they’ve invested in the club:

View attachment 15834

So it’s not a dichotomy between ENIC’s total lack of investment and Emirates Marketing Project’s sugar daddies - ENIC could have invested a few tens of millions at key points to really help the club achieve its ambitions (the 2018 summer window springs to mind).

(Though personally I actually feel proud that we’re one of the few teams to be self-sustaining, and that we’ve had such relative success on the pitch in that time. Just a matter of taste though).

Add £100m to that since the last accounts. As they put it in last summer and we have another £50m that can be drawn.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Did anyone say you do? I doubt anyone on here does, it's not RAWK, most on here will have jobs.
I would think it's not healthy to be so negative all the time.

Loads, since apparently the expectation is that I have to be here every time something good happens and shout about it, in order to prove I'm not only here when something bad happens.

I'm used to being the minority opinion, but this is a new angle I'm a little amused by. And I sincerely hope those that expect that of me (which I'm 100% not going to do, btw) do not follow that advice themselves. That isn't healthy.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Add £100m to that since the last accounts. As they put it in last summer and we have another £50m that can be drawn.

True. And 600m to Arsenal, 200m to Villa, another 100m odd to Wolves, Brighton, and Liverpool, and so on.

 

[elltrev]

Add £100m to that since the last accounts. As they put it in last summer and we have another £50m that can be drawn.

True, fair point. Then again that felt like an unplanned necessity to cover Covid shortfalls, rather than a voluntary investment to further strengthen the team. And I’d imagine most other teams’ numbers in that graph would have increased fairly proportionately.

 

[Lilbaz]

True. And 600m to Arsenal, 200m to Villa, another 100m odd to Wolves, Brighton, and Liverpool, and so on.

If you are going to discuss things stop making stuff up. People might actually take what you say seriously.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Right, so, to get back to all these questions I've answered many times before (honestly - nothing here's new mate, I've been the vocal minority on ENIC on this forum for half a decade)...



I can and have. But I have also pointed out that a good proportion of that was growth of the Premier League itself, and we were just along for the ride by staying in it. On the revenue streams where a chairman has most control, commercial, we have been middling in comparison to all our rivals.



I'd take a Premier League title, sure. When they sing 'Champions of England, you'll never sing that', it hurts because it's absolutely true and will be as long as ENIC are here. But since you (I think) intended to ask if I'd take being relegated if it meant we won a title - why would it come to that? The biggest fear of half of the dwindling band of ENIC defenders is 'doing a Leeds'. What about clubs that have invested without that happening? What about FSG at Liverpool, with titles and Champions Leagues? What about Tony Bloom at Brighton? What about Kroenke at Arsenal? Why is it that the example folks most like to use is a team that went down twenty years ago? Or Everton, or Villa - same concept. Why focus on what can go wrong rather than what can go right?



You haven't been around long enough if you're asking that. One of the things I have argued long and hard about in the past is that I would rather us be fan-owned than owned by some clam of a billionaire. If we were like Germany where the fans owned 51% of the club, you bet your bottom dollar I would sink my savings into it. Even if we had to act responsibly and not spend, I would understand it and be happy because we were owned by all of us.

But as long as that is impossible and we are a plaything fof billionaires, I would rather one that benefits us as opposed to one that strangles us as Lewis does.



You're just...blatantly wrong. *Almost no club* is run sustainably in England, and few in Europe. Almost every PL haemorrhages losses every year, and about 60% of all teams in Europe do. This has been a thing as long as football has - clubs make losses, owners fund them. True in 1890, true in 1990, true today.

We are an exception in that we have an absentee owner and this straitjacket ourselves just because. Football has never worked that way, never will.



Let me put it this way. When I was back home in Dubai during my uni days, we won the Carling Cup in 2008. I gleefully ran down the sandy streets barefoot, singing at the top of my breath, terrorising my neighbours.

When I was in my early 30s working in Ottawa, Moura scored the hat trick that got us to the CL final. I skipped down the street in the rain, twirling my suit jacket, jumping up onto dividers and walking along walls, scaring passersby as I sang my guts out with drunken joy.

I've written here before about my experiences travelling the world in my 20s, tuning in to catch Spurs at odd times from far-flung places. I posted about how one of my fondest memories was sitting in a guesthouse in Austria on one starry night the day we drew with United in the winter of 2008, cradling a cup of coffee and gazing at the stars as I was filled with the slowly warming, blissful feeling that, after the horror start to the season..everything would be alright in the end.

This club has defined me in many ways. It was my companion in childhood. It travelled with me on my journeys. It brought me to laughter, and tears. Even today, it annoys the life out of my partner.

It is my club. My one and only club. And one day, I'll pass it on to my kids, and them to theirs.

This isn't my story alone. It's yours, ours..everyone on this forum's.

And the reason why I despise the people who run it...is because they don't value it as I do. Or as you do. Or as we do. And it annoys me, saddens me, and fills me with regret because Levy and Lewis do not deserve this club, and they shackle us from being what we can be.

So, there's your answer. The highs are still high, but the lows are lower for me because I can see why they happen - it is because of the owners we are burdened with. That's the only difference between you and me, mate.

Hope that answers your questions.

1. You've failed to acknowledge that Levy has closed the gap on the elite clubs. You've not answered that question and ended up on a tangent.


2. You’d prefer to support Leicester, even with them relegated now? One short moment in the sun but long term a Championship yo-yo club. You’d prefer that honestly? The league title would have sated your incessant desire, changed your life and made you a more happy go lucky chap? For all the supposed woes we ‘suffer’, I'll take trophyless Spurs and our long term trajectory which started upwards under Enic.


3. What you are saying is that to own a PL club you have to subsidize it? That is an unsustainable position and means you can only win stuff if you are the elite of the elite of the elite wealth wise. And you'd be right. We have that setup now but there are greater controls coming becuase its unsustainable as a specticle. Outside of the oil funded clubs – we can see that cash investment into players are always finite. Owners like Randy Learner or Srivaddhanaprabha may invest 100s of millions, but look what happened to their clubs when the cash stopped! So you are either in with the dirty oil money or prone to crash and burn.


But there is an alternative...


4. You build a club with genuine revenue to challenge the hegemony. Which is what Levy has started to do. Something you have trouble admitting. Which marks you as somewhat irrational, whether you can admit it or not. Spurs could elevate towards the United model in 5-20 years. Far far from certain, but we’re in with a shot, we have a platform. We need to build incrementally and win trophies.


5. How do you know whether Levy values the club like you do? Spurs support was passed down to him via his family, and he has a local connection to the area. Of course he's a business man, but there is more going on than just money. He could have raised cash for land in his own name and built 100 x 1 bed flats and retired. A cinch (xcuse the commercial pun) compared to the work he does do. Like a lot of people Levy is interested in his legacy, interested in history. He is at every game. He put everything he had into the stadium and training complex development.


6. Arguably, Levys failing is actually not being more involved in the football side. You mentioned Bloom at Brighton he is far more involved in the player trading setup, recruitment and sales. Yet you are desperate that this highly successful Cambridge graduate should not use their brain to help with the playing side. Again it is not really rational.

 

[DubSpur]

Loads, since apparently the expectation is that I have to be here every time something good happens and shout about it, in order to prove I'm not only here when something bad happens.

I'm used to being the minority opinion, but this is a new angle I'm a little amused by. And I sincerely hope those that expect that of me (which I'm 100% not going to do, btw) do not follow that advice themselves. That isn't healthy.

No, there's no expectation that you be here every min. It would give you a bit of credibility if the only times you were on weren't just to spout something negative. If there was a little balance with you actually giving recognition to the good then when you do spout something negative then the reaction might not be "here we go again".

 

[Bedfordspurs]

1. You've failed to acknowledge that Levy has closed the gap on the elite clubs. You've not answered that question and ended up on a tangent.


2. You’d prefer to support Leicester, even with them relegated now? One short moment in the sun but long term a Championship yo-yo club. You’d prefer that honestly? The league title would have sated your incessant desire, changed your life and made you a more happy go lucky chap? For all the supposed woes we ‘suffer’, I'll take trophyless Spurs and our long term trajectory which started upwards under Enic.


3. What you are saying is that to own a PL club you have to subsidize it? That is an unsustainable position and means you can only win stuff if you are the elite of the elite of the elite wealth wise. And you'd be right. We have that setup now but there are greater controls coming becuase its unsustainable as a specticle. Outside of the oil funded clubs – we can see that cash investment into players are always finite. Owners like Randy Learner or Srivaddhanaprabha may invest 100s of millions, but look what happened to their clubs when the cash stopped! So you are either in with the dirty oil money or prone to crash and burn.


But there is an alternative...


4. You build a club with genuine revenue to challenge the hegemony. Which is what Levy has started to do. Something you have trouble admitting. Which marks you as somewhat irrational, whether you can admit it or not. Spurs could elevate towards the United model in 5-20 years. Far far from certain, but we’re in with a shot, we have a platform. We need to build incrementally and win trophies.


5. How do you know whether Levy values the club like you do? Spurs support was passed down to him via his family, and he has a local connection to the area. Of course he's a business man, but there is more going on than just money. He could have raised cash for land in his own name and built 100 x 1 bed flats and retired. A cinch (xcuse the commercial pun) compared to the work he does do. Like a lot of people Levy is interested in his legacy, interested in history. He is at every game. He put everything he had into the stadium and training complex development.


6. Arguably, Levys failing is actually not being more involved in the football side. You mentioned Bloom at Brighton he is far more involved in the player trading setup, recruitment and sales. Yet you are desperate that this highly successful Cambridge graduate should not use their brain to help with the playing side. Again it is not really rational.

Levy has got us now able to do to battle with a tank
The others are now using fighter jets and anti tank guns because they borrowed them from a mate or simply have just brought them from someone else
We either needs a great tank driver and crew or we’re being blown out of the water

 

[Bullet]

You guys are impressively patient, debating with the Canadian WUM

 

[Grays_1890]

Levy has got us now able to do to battle with a tank
The others are now using fighter jets and anti tank guns because they borrowed them from a mate or simply have just brought them from someone else
We either needs a great tank driver and crew or we’re being blown out of the water

.

The saving grace to it all is that the self sustainable model does work to a level because based on the earlier graph from the rambler half the clubs are having to dope to extreme levels to win anything and the other half have spent beyond their means and blown a gasket (Everton, Leeds, Wolves etc).

 

[Bedfordspurs]

.

The saving grace to it all is that the self sustainable model does work to a level because based on the earlier graph from the rambler half the clubs are having to dope to extreme levels to win anything and the other half have spent beyond their means and blown a gasket (Everton, Leeds, Wolves etc).

True
But we may as well turn up now with a water pistol filled with tinkle for what’s that’s worth
Right now I’m just happy we’re gonna see players playing attacking football, in a cohesive way and trying to score rather than defend
That alone will make the season for me because the only way city don’t win everything again is if they drop the ball in a cup game

 

[DubaiSpur]

If you are going to discuss things stop making stuff up. People might actually take what you say seriously.

Sigh.



So, that's 200m to Arse since then up to early 2022, including the 184m Kroenke loaned Arse to pay off stadium loans. Not including another injection later that year, even more this year (article suggests up to 200m of Kroenke's own money, but it's likely to be smaller than that).

It's not far off. Would you want me to dig up the figures for the other owner injections as of 2023? 126m for Wolves (at least) since 2020, some proportion of 360m for Aston Villa since 2018, and so on.

 

[Junior19]

Let's face it, there is no way Levy could have come out of this situation which would make the Levy Out-phalanx with Richard Cracknell & Co in particular change their view of him.

I just would like to remind everyone that it could have been so very, very different. We could have been sold to someone else than Enic back then when Sugar folded his cards, all those years ago. We could have ended up with a Ken Bates, a Peter Ridsdale, or a Jack Walker. And perhaps had a trophy or two more than today, and we could have been where Leeds and Blackburn are today. (and where Chelsea should have been).
Or we could have ended up with russian blood money, or some other questionable financial bogus brick from any weird part of the world.

To run a club in a sustainable way and compete in the Premier League today is not just hard, it is pretty darn close to impossible. Yet we've come so close. We lost out to a freak Leicester-season, and a doped Chelsea in our two best seasons, and we've been constantly punching above our weight.
So I'd say that Levy's goal of competing for the Premier League on a sustainable basis is the most Tottenham way of doing it, it is in fact setting your sight so high that even failure has in it an echo of glory. In that sense the business matches the sporting ambition.

If Levy had forced Harry to stay yet one more time, the Levy Out-phalanx would have been over him like a ton of bricks for breaking his gentlemens agreements, or whatever
If Levy had sold Harry last year, the Levy Out-phalanx would have been over him like a ton of bricks, for having gentlemens agreements, yadi yadi yadi.
I bet, if Levy had conviced Harry to sign a new contract, the Levy Out-phalanx would have been over him like a ton of bricks, for not renewing the club, or something.

For anyone reading between the lines (or just listening to the plain words from our gaffer) it is rather obvious what happened. This time they really DID have a gentlemens agreement, this time a bid that DID match that agreement came in, and thus the decision was really only up to Kane.

If the figures and terms that appear in the press now are correct, I'd say it is a very good job by the negotiators. In a time and era where almost everything is staggered, broken into yearly payments and spread over a long period, it is quite a thing to wrestle over a Bale worth of money in a up front cash payment.

 

[Grays_1890]

True
But we may as well turn up now with a water pistol filled with tinkle for what’s that’s worth
Right now I’m just happy we’re gonna see players playing attacking football, in a cohesive way and trying to score rather than defend
That alone will make the season for me because the only way city don’t win everything again is if they drop the ball in a cup game

I think you will find again like any season, some clubs that spend in a sustainable way out performing some of the doped and vice versa, that's why I don't think it's the be all and end all.

What's probably more important is joined up thinking and not appointing burnt up mercenaries like Jose.

 

[Lilbaz]

Sigh.

View attachment 15836View attachment 15836

So, that's 200m to Arse since then up to early 2022, including the 184m Kroenke loaned Arse to pay off stadium loans. Not including another injection later that year, even more this year (article suggests up to 200m of Kroenke's own money, but it's likely to be smaller than that).

It's not far off. Would you want me to dig up the figures for the other owner injections as of 2023? 126m for Wolves (at least) since 2020, some proportion of 360m for Aston Villa since 2018, and so on.

So £200m last summer which includes the £184m. So that equals £200m.

They've put in a further £400m since then?