Energy Bills

[P.D.]

Different contracts sold at different times will obviously be on different terms.

It's not a free market and that's because our govt pushed so hard towards green energy. It's the cost of running before we can walk.

Everyone thought it was a good idea at the time because nobody thought there was any likelihood of the gas we need until renewables are ready becoming so scarce.

There's nothing wrong with moving towards greener energy, the contracts part was poor yes but at least now the infrastructure is built and ready. We should be moving towards more renewables combined with nuclear. Wind and tidal should be good sources for us given we're an island. I was disappointed they didn't build the tidal lagoon in Swansea, that was the type of project we should have got ahead of and then sold some of the design/expertise abroad after.

It's the same with nuclear really, EDF (now the French government) building Hinckley Point C - I predict there's going to be a big mess when it turns out they're making a nice profit of the UK tax payer and subsidising their own citizens prices with it. We should majority own the plants ourselves and again the reactor designs can be sold afterwards.

 

[Gutter Boy]

This is the major problem with what would be the morally right approach to funding the proposed energy cap.

However what guarantees are there that we will get the level of investment required if we don’t apply an additional windfall tax?

My understanding is that British Gas, shell, etc are already well behind their investment targets regardless of any discussions around windfall tax.

So if the reason for not applying windfall taxes is so that they will invest, and they are not investing, why not just windfall tax the clams?

Or just cut out the middle man. The £170b profits the energy shareholders are taking this year would pay for windfarms that would power 1/3 country for the next 30 years.

 

[Gutter Boy]

If there was some Chinese-style army-led determination to get new wind farms up and running in 3 months, we could do it, couldn't we? Would make the nation proud and be useful. Just a lack of leadership and determination. Okay, it'd be only one small thing, and we need a lot more. But it would be a start. You could also bulk buy solar and negotiate an amazing rate for £1 billion of solar pannels over 1 year, and provide cost price solar to homes and factories. But politicians lack any spirit or imagination.

Uruguay managed it, about 15 years ago:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...akes-dramatic-shift-to-nearly-95-clean-energy

 

[SpurMeUp]

This is completely dumb, they need to sort this out pronto. Also they should up the windfall text, seems silly to pay massive costs for energy and load it all on tax payer. Even if it wasn't too high and raised 20-30bn it would reduce the debt a lot. Should also freeze it based on usage - everyone gets a set amount and you pay market rate above it to help incentivize people to lower their usage.

Also it's pointless drilling more in the North Sea or fracking, will take years and would just be sold at market rates anyway.

All of this sounds obvious but then it is Truss we're talking about here.

Maybe they are concerned by markets and the cost of borrowing. If you announce windfall taxes it can undermine the government borrowing rate, and the UK is in increasing debt with a falling pound. So they'll have some kind of tax but give it a different name possibly.

But yes, our government has been a shambles since Cameron really. So much waste and misspent taxes.

 

[scaramanga]

Would be nice if the government was able to provide solar and battery storage to you at cost pricing, using a few billion for bulk buying kit to reduce cost. Unfortunately, everything from the government is reactionary, short-term and costly. Rather than be proactive, they are reactive, and they don't use our money well to react either. £120b of debt and interest to pay energy firms, yet no investments into longer-lasting solutions.

That's true, but current payback time for the solar project is less than 2.5 years. Free money is always good but it's not needed to make the case here.

 

[scaramanga]

I've never heard of anything like that before but it sounds fixable to me. Talk to your local Tory MP and they'll have it sorted in no time. For a small fee.

Also you were talking about how 'Solar panels aren't the answer for domestic use". Now you are talking commercial use. You are moving the goal posts.

The problem is the same - the grid can't take the power in, store it and give it back cheaply when required. That means every site has to have battery storage until we come up with a better mass storage solution. Even if carpeting the country in solar panels were viable, I'm not sure giving everyone battery storage would be.

Energy prices are at their highest in winter - that's when solar panels produce the least power - that won't do much to alleviate costs.

 

[scaramanga]

There's nothing wrong with moving towards greener energy, the contracts part was poor yes but at least now the infrastructure is built and ready. We should be moving towards more renewables combined with nuclear. Wind and tidal should be good sources for us given we're an island. I was disappointed they didn't build the tidal lagoon in Swansea, that was the type of project we should have got ahead of and then sold some of the design/expertise abroad after.

It's the same with nuclear really, EDF (now the French government) building Hinckley Point C - I predict there's going to be a big mess when it turns out they're making a nice profit of the UK tax payer and subsidising their own citizens prices with it. We should majority own the plants ourselves and again the reactor designs can be sold afterwards.

I agree with all of that.

But the move to greener energy should come without risk or increased cost to taxpayers.

 

[SpurMeUp]

That's true, but current payback time for the solar project is less than 2.5 years. Free money is always good but it's not needed to make the case here.

So do it with battery storage to increase efficiency, and give back to the grid over the weekend etc. The lack of creativity is galling.

 

[markysimmo]

 

[P.D.]

Maybe they are concerned by markets and the cost of borrowing. If you announce windfall taxes it can undermine the government borrowing rate, and the UK is in increasing debt with a falling pound. So they'll have some kind of tax but give it a different name possibly.

But yes, our government has been a shambles since Cameron really. So much waste and misspent taxes.

I'd think borrowing the full amount of 100bn + would push bond prices up and more spending will lead to higher inflation and higher interest rates that then pushes mortgage rates up etc.

 

[Rorschach]

The problem is the same - the grid can't take the power in, store it and give it back cheaply when required. That means every site has to have battery storage until we come up with a better mass storage solution. Even if carpeting the country in solar panels were viable, I'm not sure giving everyone battery storage would be.

Energy prices are at their highest in winter - that's when solar panels produce the least power - that won't do much to alleviate costs.

I've never once heard of anything like that. If you want to post some articles how the UK grid can't take feed in electricity I'll read them. Even if that was the case the solution is to fix the grid to handle it. It works everywhere else. And as I mentioned you'll use almost all the electricity you create anyway. You are tilting at windmills here.

And of course solar panels alleviate costs. Why else would you be putting them on your factory ? A reasonably small 2kw system would get you about half your domestic electricity in ideal conditions. And again a 2kw battery adds say an additional 1k or so to the cost of an installation. It is not a massive amount.

If you want to argue that the current cost of a solar pv system is still beyond a lot of households then yes I would agree. This is where the government should come in. Batteries and panels are well on the learning curve and the prices has been dropping rapidly for years, but if you can't afford a 5k energy bill I assume you won't be able to afford a 5k pv installation either. Lower-income families should be helped with the upfront cost rather than throwing a few hundred quid at them every now and then which goes back to the energy companies anyway.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The problem is the same - the grid can't take the power in, store it and give it back cheaply when required. That means every site has to have battery storage until we come up with a better mass storage solution. Even if carpeting the country in solar panels were viable, I'm not sure giving everyone battery storage would be.

Energy prices are at their highest in winter - that's when solar panels produce the least power - that won't do much to alleviate costs.

Long term we won't need to store it. Just constantly generate 115% of maximum recorded usage, and release the excess.

 

[scaramanga]

So do it with battery storage to increase efficiency, and give back to the grid over the weekend etc. The lack of creativity is galling.

We can't. As I said, we'd have to fill our entire yard with batteries for 37 mins of production.

We can't feed back to the grid, even for free.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We can't. As I said, we'd have to fill our entire yard with batteries for 37 mins of production.

We can't feed back to the grid, even for free.

Are you a 'no we can't' type!? What happens over the weekend to solar energy you generate? Or on a sunny evening etc.

How do wind turbines stack up? Are they able to produce much energy from a windy day? Obviously they work overnight too.

 

[scaramanga]

Are you a 'no we can't' type!? What happens over the weekend to solar energy you generate? Or on a sunny evening etc.

How do wind turbines stack up? Are they able to produce much energy from a windy day? Obviously they work overnight too.

We have to disperse it as heat from the panels.

Turbines don't seem to be particularly effective in comparison - at least not at the size we can use without vehicles being unable to load and unload in the yard.

 

[Rorschach]

Are you a 'no we can't' type!? What happens over the weekend to solar energy you generate? Or on a sunny evening etc.

How do wind turbines stack up? Are they able to produce much energy from a windy day? Obviously they work overnight too.

Wind turbines, even microturbines don't really work in an urban environment. There are obvious size considerations and anyway, the air is too turbulent for them to perform effectively. I heard this from a guy who decides where the big ones go.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We have to disperse it as heat from the panels.

Turbines don't seem to be particularly effective in comparison - at least not at the size we can use without vehicles being unable to load and unload in the yard.

Is it not possible for this unused energy to go back into the grid?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Wind turbines, even microturbines don't really work in an urban environment. There are obvious size considerations and anyway, the air is too turbulent for them to perform effectively. I heard this from a guy who decides where the big ones go.

You see them incorporated into various urban buildings. Invariably they are not spinning and its a folly added by a well-meaning architect. They can make for cool architectural features, but never seem to work. Still maybe smaller wind turbines can top-up domestic supply in the future. Rather than TV aerials on every house, some kind of cheap turbine could be cool. Who knows what things will look like in 5 years time...

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Here's a little look across Europe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61522123

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

https://youtube.com/c/JustHaveaThink

'Just have a think' ...is a great YouTube channel for all this stuff.