Dilemma - 4th but Missing CL - Successful?

[indianspur]

We weren't even spoken about as Champions League contenders at the start of the season, it was: Emirates Marketing Project, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and - having spent ?ú100m - Liverpool.

Considering the fact we've actually spent most of the season in 3rd, to finish 4th would be a very successful season.

i see, so Liverpool spending brickloads on Henderson, Downing and Adam makes them CL contenders. Ok

and Arsenal selling their two best midfielders, Wheelchair being ruled out for a lengthy spell, buying the German Peter Crouch of defenders, and having no other strikers apart from RVP made them such strong favourites for the CL??

wow

 

[Sheikh Ma Nuggets]

Revisionist gonad*s.

We were in the fudging champs league last year FFS! We WERE talked about in the the mix with the teams you list.

Why are you making brick up?

I'm not.

Manchester United were the defending Champions; obviously they were touted-up as favourites. Then you had the Emirates Marketing Project bandwagon, with their multi-million pound additions - spoken about as title contenders. After that was all the talk of the 'AVB revolution' with Chelsea whacking in bids for Modric and whoever else. Then you had Arsenal, weakened by the loss of Fabregas - yet still a very strong team, and Champions League pedigree. Then you had Liverpool with their ?ú100m spend and - on paper - solid signings; without question they were expected to challenge top 4/5. Tottenham barely strengthened over the summer; signed an aging Parker and a temperamental Adebayor - both carried with them risk. Also, Tottenham were unstablised all summer with the Modric rumours.

All things considered, we were spoken about in the context of maybe 4th if a very good season, but more likely 5th. Considering the summer, that was actually a fair and realistic expectation placed upon us. As it turned out, we've spent most of the season in 3rd and it's only recently that we've dropped back a place.

There's no "revisionist gonad*s" here - I don't need to. I always make a mental note of who's spoken about at the start of the season, and - I can assure you - there was fudge all hype about Tottenham, it was mainly all about Chelsea with their new era, and Liverpool with their ?ú100m spend. All the talk concerning Spurs was 'will he, won't he' regarding Modric, speculating how fudged off he must be and further speculation as to how disruptive that would be to Tottenham's season. Our transfer activity was viewed as weak and unconvincing and our Champions League credentials was seen as 'flash in the pan' because of it.

 

[Sheikh Ma Nuggets]

i see, so Liverpool spending brickloads on Henderson, Downing and Adam makes them CL contenders. Ok

and Arsenal selling their two best midfielders, Wheelchair being ruled out for a lengthy spell, buying the German Peter Crouch of defenders, and having no other strikers apart from RVP made them such strong favourites for the CL??

wow

What are you whinging about to me for?

 

[Leeds Spur]

I'm not.

Manchester United were the defending Champions; obviously they were touted-up as favourites. Then you had the Emirates Marketing Project bandwagon, with their multi-million pound additions - spoken about as title contenders. After that was all the talk of the 'AVB revolution' with Chelsea whacking in bids for Modric and whoever else. Then you had Arsenal, weakened by the loss of Fabregas - yet still a very strong team, and Champions League pedigree. Then you had Liverpool with their ?ú100m spend and - on paper - solid signings; without question they were expected to challenge top 4/5. Tottenham barely strengthened over the summer; signed an aging Parker and a temperamental Adebayor - both carried with them risk. Also, Tottenham were unstablised all summer with the Modric rumours.

All things considered, we were spoken about in the context of maybe 4th if a very good season, but more likely 5th. Considering the summer, that was actually a fair and realistic expectation placed upon us. As it turned out, we've spent most of the season in 3rd and it's only recently that we've dropped back a place.

There's no "revisionist gonad*s" here - I don't need to. I always make a mental note of who's spoken about at the start of the season, and - I can assure you - there was fudge all hype about Tottenham, it was mainly all about Chelsea with their new era, and Liverpool with their ?ú100m spend. All the talk concerning Spurs was 'will he, won't he' regarding Modric, speculating how fudged off he must be and further speculation as to how disruptive that would be to Tottenham's season. Our transfer activity was viewed as weak and unconvincing and our Champions League credentials was seen as 'flash in the pan' because of it.

Lol......You stated we werent discussed as champs league contenders, now you state we were, (4th is considered a champs league spot)

So you concede we were in fact touted as champs league contenders! A fact backed up by my link.

To pretend, like our manger has, that we weren't expected to be challenging for a top 4 place is, as I said, patently WRONG.

Sorry.

 

[Sheikh Ma Nuggets]

Lol......You stated we werent discussed as champs league contenders, now you state we were, (4th is considered a champs league spot)

So you concede we were in fact touted as champs league contenders! A fact backed up by my link.

To pretend, like our manger has, that we weren't expected to be challenging for a top 4 place is, as I said, patently WRONG.

Sorry.

"we were spoken about in the context of maybe 4th if a very good season, but more likely 5th"

And you interpret that as a ringing endorsement of Champions League contention? Laughable mate - you're better than that.

For what it's worth, personally I thought we'd have a strong season but very much thought our battles were always going to be to try and secure 4th place. You can't get away from the fact that there are teams above and around us who - financially - just blow us out of the fudging water. You wanna say money don't play a part? Okay then, so what do you need then - good management, right? Yeah, but then you blow your mouth off at the manager who keeps the club up there, even though we've spent fudge all?

 

[noddy1991]

we were around 3/1 pre season for a top 4 place. unbelievably liverpool were backed into around even money despite wasting a fortune on a load of obviously average players

even though we've comfortably finished above them 3 seasons in a row i'm sure we'll still behind them in the betting for next season whatever happens in the summer

 

[Leeds Spur]

Look at the squad, tell me that shouldn't be challenging top 4...challenging?

Harry has performed adequately.

 

[Sheikh Ma Nuggets]

Look at the squad, tell me that shouldn't be challenging top 4...challenging?

Harry has performed adequately.

But you look in isolation: you need to look at your peers, and how they strengthen.

Liverpool spent a fortune in order to build a serious Champions League challenge, and y'know what, with the investment they put in - I expected them to be up there too. Okay so it hasn't worked out for them, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Same with Chelsea, spent ooooodle louring AVB to Chelsea - the manager who was touted as 'the next Mourinho' so MASSIVE things were expected of him. They invested in the summer, strengthened, and you have to be honest about it - who the hell would've thought Chelsea would have such a brick season? Big manager, Big players, Big investment.

Then you have Arsenal, weakened with the loss of Cesc but this is still a football club with one of the strongest pedigrees for qualifying for the Champions League. Yeah it fudges us off as Spurs fans, but we can't deny it - they get brick done. Look at them again this season: fudging woeful but they got their brick together and now they're up into 3rd. You HAVE to expect Arsenal will always be there or thereabouts; absolutely nothing to suggest they won't be.

As I said, we had so much negative hype around the club during last summer. Yeah we have some quality first teamers: Modric, Bale and Van der Vaart - but so much emphasis and attention WAS focused on Modric; his future and its impact on squad harmony. You simply cannot deny that. Yeah we got Scott Parker in, but - be honest - that's hardly setting the world alight is it? He HAS been brilliant, but we didn't scare anyone by signing him. The good signing was Adebayor - respect due for that. But did it elevate us to automatic Champions League contenders? Not at all; Adebayor is about the only striker of any proper respect that we have!

That's why I said, we'd of have to of had a really good season, and one of the stronger teams really drop out of the top 4 for us to get ourselves in there. As it's turned out, that's exactly what's happened, with Chelsea having a 'mare.

What's amusing is that we ARE actually challenging for Top 4 - and yet some 'fans' seriously think that isn't good enough?? Get real. I pity those who obviously forget the days of having to wait of Pg 2/2 on Ceefax to see the league table. If you wanna talk about "small time" - I perish what you made of those wonderful times; and to suggest challenging for 4th is 'adequate' - blimey, a reality check really IS in order.

 

[southstand1882]

Opinions are like arseholes

Apparently Andy Carroll can become the next Drogba

 

[Leeds Spur]

I don't care about Ceefax. I care about now. Now, with this squad. 4th is a good performance. Not great. Adequate. And we won't get 4th. I've got £1300 riding on it.

 

[Fuego]

This poll is crazy.

We shouldn't have blown third, but we weren't in third at the start of the season. We started our season by ripping Hearts to pieces away, then we lost to the Manchester clubs but signed a few more players... Then Hudds got injured...

At which point should I vote on the poll? At that stage, when I hoped Hudds would be back around January and was confident we had the 2nd best squad in the league (second to Emirates Marketing Project, my opinion looks really fudging wrong now given Man United got Scholes back in January and now have a midfield and Chelsea have players such as Ramierez, Romeu, Cahill, etc which I hadn't planned on being good players.)

But at that stage, losing to the Manchester clubs, but the window finally closing so I knew we'd keep Modric, I'd have taken 4th then.

Being 13 points ahead of Arsenal at one stage, still 10 points clear on North London Derby day, there's no fudging way I'd have taken 4th then.

The logic that we're Spurs and we always fudge things up should not apply. Arsenal had their worst start to a season for 58 years. 58 years. Fabregas, Clichy and Nasri had gone, they were even loaning out other players they could have used. Sure, they signed Artetta, look at how often Peinaar was used for us and he was an Everton superstar like Artetta... They signed the most hilarious defender to be considered a first teamer for Arsenal that I can remember, an extremely slow hoofer that can't pass his way out of trouble. They signed Park, I still haven't had a chance to evaluate him because he hasn't played and it's almost the end of the season... Who else did they sign on that last day? Wiltshere was out for the same time as Hudds... Their one man had gone (Fabregas, Arsenal are always a one man team, Henry, Fabregas, RVP)... So while they had RVP, I expected him to get injured and miss 50-66% of the season as he always does. I expected them to struggle to get a Europa League place, I had them fighting it out with Liverpool and Everton.

I expected Chelsea to get a CL place. So at the start of the season, I would have taken 4th. I was fairly sure Barca or Real Madrid would win the CL and figured only City had half a hope of winning it out of the English teams, but they'd be in the top 4, so that shouldn't be a problem.

United had lost Van Der Sar, Scholes and Neville, De Gea looked fudging awful and they had no midfield. So at that stage, I was close to considering this the weakest PL in a while, this isn't like the old days when the top 4 were actually all sides that would compete to win the CL.


Who were we supposed to finish behind? City had narrowly beaten us to a top 4 place the previous year, yes, they went out and bought people, but that shouldn't make them twice as good as us... United were weaker, Chelsea were a mixed bag, Arsenal had sold their best player and his replacement, Liverpool have been mid table for a while and hadn't bought anyone good enough to make up for the Barca first teamer or the Real Madrid first teamer.... Charlie Adam is no Xabi Alonso, Henderson was someone that didn't even register to me, Downing was brick for 20 mil, although his crossing and shooting has gone downhill since joining Liverpool. Gerrard was due to return from injury at some point...

Who else was supposed to finish above us? Everton (sold most of their best players and one of the few they kept wasn't scoring)... Seriously?

I know no one could have predicted Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but fudge me.

4th would not have been a miracle. Winning the league might have been, but Harry's attitude making us sound like fudging Wigan challenging for CL football is retarded.

To blow 3rd is hard to forgive, especially as it was to Arsenal. It doesn't make much sense to say that, but it's how I feel. I don't think I'll ever fully forgive Harry for that if we don't get CL football next year. It's something I'll always remember. If he takes us to the title in the next 3 years, then I'd want him to stay on, but I'd still remember this epic fudge up and won't ever rate him as a five star manager.


To put this fully into context, Merson was taking the tinkle out of Arsenal for being brick last year... Paul Merson... And they had Fabregas, Nasri and a fudging left back then... Finishing below them is embarrassing.


The only two clubs that haven't underachieved are Emirates Marketing Project and Man United. Us throwing away such a huge lead on everyone below us is definitely underachieving.

 

[Leeds Spur]

You talk about context and then don't apply any.

You cannot look at our season without context.

We were in 3rd, 13 points clear. Capello resigns and our season goes to ratbrick.

 

[BelfastYid]

Agree totally, we were tipped to finish 5th or 6th by most pundits. 4th was what I thought, would be a great season.

I'm not.

Manchester United were the defending Champions; obviously they were touted-up as favourites. Then you had the Emirates Marketing Project bandwagon, with their multi-million pound additions - spoken about as title contenders. After that was all the talk of the 'AVB revolution' with Chelsea whacking in bids for Modric and whoever else. Then you had Arsenal, weakened by the loss of Fabregas - yet still a very strong team, and Champions League pedigree. Then you had Liverpool with their ?ú100m spend and - on paper - solid signings; without question they were expected to challenge top 4/5. Tottenham barely strengthened over the summer; signed an aging Parker and a temperamental Adebayor - both carried with them risk. Also, Tottenham were unstablised all summer with the Modric rumours.

All things considered, we were spoken about in the context of maybe 4th if a very good season, but more likely 5th. Considering the summer, that was actually a fair and realistic expectation placed upon us. As it turned out, we've spent most of the season in 3rd and it's only recently that we've dropped back a place.

There's no "revisionist gonad*s" here - I don't need to. I always make a mental note of who's spoken about at the start of the season, and - I can assure you - there was fudge all hype about Tottenham, it was mainly all about Chelsea with their new era, and Liverpool with their ?ú100m spend. All the talk concerning Spurs was 'will he, won't he' regarding Modric, speculating how fudged off he must be and further speculation as to how disruptive that would be to Tottenham's season. Our transfer activity was viewed as weak and unconvincing and our Champions League credentials was seen as 'flash in the pan' because of it.

 

[Mumorn]

Of course it will be successful. We finished fudging 5th last year. How is finishing 4th not successful?.. It's a step in the right direction.

 

[Park Lane James]

It might not be seen as a successful season as we'd have come away with nothing and our best players would be more inclined to leave the club. But, since most people on here were never expecting us to finish in the top four at the start of the season (not myself, I believed that we could have done so), then the team would have done their part of the bargain. All things considering, such as how much Chelsea and Liverpool have spent, finishing above them would be seen as successful.

 

[Fuego]

It might not be seen as a successful season as we'd have come away with nothing and our best players would be more inclined to leave the club. But, since most people on here were never expecting us to finish in the top four at the start of the season (not myself, I believed that we could have done so), then the team would have done their part of the bargain. All things considering, such as how much Chelsea and Liverpool have spent, finishing above them would be seen as successful.

I totally understand that point, but by contrast, look at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, finishing right next to them is the opposite of finishing next to Chelsea.


A huge factor with our league position is going to depend on who we have around us, as unfair as that is. If every other club would have drawn all their games, we'd win the league and be happy, even with fewer points than we have now.

Just looking at this season as "we're level on points with Saudi Sportswashing Machine with 3 games to go"... People can say we have a weaker squad or first team than a bunch of other teams, but here is Saudi Sportswashing Machine's squad list:

Squad List
Goalkeepers
1. Harper 26. Krul 35. Elliot
Defenders
2. Coloccini 3. Santon 5. Simpson 6. Williamson 14. Perch 16. Taylor R 27. Taylor S 34. Tavernier 38. Henderson 40. Kadar
Midfielders
4. Cabaye 8. Guthrie 10. Ben Arfa 13. Abeid 15. Gosling 18. Gutierrez 22. Marveaux 24. Tiote Richardson Inman
Attacking Midfielders
11. Lovenkrands 25. Obertan 29. Vuckic 31. Ferguson
Strikers
9. Cisse 19. Ba 20. Best 23. Shola Ameobi 26. Airey 28. Sammy Ameobi 32. Donaldson

That's a lazy copy and paste from Sky Sports. Cisse was bought in January, Ba hasn't scored since he came in. Taylor (the CB) has been injured since the Chelsea game (just before the halfway point in the season), he's one of their starting CBs.


They used a 4-4-2 but converted to a 4-3-3 after losing to us at WHL.


We use a 4-4-1-1....

I'm going to go down that cliche route of "how many of our players would get into their team and how many of theirs would get into ours?"

Obviously everyone has different opinions on their preferred players, but I think most people will have us at least shading it 6/11. (That's assuming Krul vs Friedel, Coloccini vs King/Gallas/etc, Ba/Cisse vs Ade and some combination of Cabaye, Tiote and Ben Arfa beat out Modric, Parker/Sandro and VDV, I think I'm being generous but there's bound to be someone that'd prefer one of their full backs or something too...)

So taking away Cisse, I'm not sure what Ben Arfa's situation was regarding his return from injury, but I remember Obertan started... (Along with Amiobe, Best or whoever as striker due to them not having Cisse)....

They haven't had one of their two CBs since around December due to injury...


So now we move onto squad depth, I think we have to have this one. When the first window closed, we had two good teams, we may have loaned some players out (sold Pav and got in a couple of players), but overall depth should be ours.


One key point for me is the African Cup of Nations... We lost 0 players, they lost Ba, Tiote, Cisse (signed him but couldn't play him until ACON was over), etc.), in that time, they struggled.


So we have gone through the season, are currently level with a Saudi Sportswashing Machine side that really struggled thanks to the ACON. If the ACON hadn't happened this year, they'd probably have a few more points. Is this success?

For everyone that mentions an underwhelming Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, etc, there is another side to that coin.


They were tipped as relegation candidates. Their spending was pretty much the money they got for selling their star striker.