Daniel Levy - Chairman

[BrainOfLevy]

You are back on your assumptions once again.

mate, read my post a couple of pages back - I tagged you in it. It explains my thinking, I’m not trying to assume anything or cast aspersions on the great Daniel Levy (who are actually have a lot of respect for). I’m trying to have a discussion about the business of football.

Do people think Levy just loves the club and is doing this as a hobby? Do people think Lewis just bought the club out of the goodness of his heart? Lewis is an investor, and Levy is the guy to enact his wishes, but live more in the day to day. Either they sell at some point, or they take money out of the club at some point. They didn’t get involved out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Donna Cullen really earns her money with this stuff. ‘We did everything we could...just didn’t go out way’ is a very generous reading of the situation for ENIC.

The thing is, for the first time, the mask is actually slipping in that sense. PR-wise, the club has seen a series of disasters this past year - from furloughing ordinary working folks while Levy gave himself a bonus, to the farcical ESL, to Kane pulling the rug out from under them and their disingenuous crap.

The first two, they actually had to reverse course because of public outrage, and no doubt they're seething over that. This latest excuse for a Chairman's Message is being savaged on social media -

https://twitter.com/x/status/1394974589281869826

I don't even think she does her own job right in a PR sense - it's fundamentally to cover up the fact that ENIC's bottom line is 'at no cost to us'. While people may have bought it in the past, people are seeing through it now, I think. Or I hope, anyway.

 

[parklane1]

mate, read my post a couple of pages back - I tagged you in it. It explains my thinking, I’m not trying to assume anything or cast aspersions on the great Daniel Levy (who are actually have a lot of respect for). I’m trying to have a discussion about the business of football.

Do people think Levy just loves the club and is doing this as a hobby? Do people think Lewis just bought the club out of the goodness of his heart? Lewis is an investor, and Levy is the guy to enact his wishes, but live more in the day to day. Either they sell at some point, or they take money out of the club at some point. They didn’t get involved out of the goodness of their hearts.

Believe it or not i have read ALL your posts on this and there is S ome sense in what you say. However you assume so many things as if they are all true and make your stance on them being so. Its you opinion but you try and make out that everything you say "They clearly want to sell now the stadium is done " Is just one of them.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

mate, read my post a couple of pages back - I tagged you in it. It explains my thinking, I’m not trying to assume anything or cast aspersions on the great Daniel Levy (who are actually have a lot of respect for). I’m trying to have a discussion about the business of football.

Do people think Levy just loves the club and is doing this as a hobby? Do people think Lewis just bought the club out of the goodness of his heart? Lewis is an investor, and Levy is the guy to enact his wishes, but live more in the day to day. Either they sell at some point, or they take money out of the club at some point. They didn’t get involved out of the goodness of their hearts.

I think folk would be slightly bonkers to think that TBH
We are owned by an investment company in name. That’s what they do
But buy default they need it to increase in value to get a return on their investment (yes they haven’t put money in)
Their not football fans or fanatics
They want to build a sustainable club as that’s beneficial and an easier sell at a higher price. That’s quite sensible of them
They would sell if someone made an offer
But why would someone buy us for the money they would want when you could buy Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Leeds for £200/£300m
Pump £200m in and have a greater return quicker. I mean no one is gonna tell me city was bigger than Leeds before the buy outs. And Saudi Sportswashing Machine are a one horse club that has fanatical delusional fans to drain of their pennies

 

[Jurgen the German]

City is a guarantee of silverware
Is that simple
I actually think if it’s not city he won’t go
And city will not want to pay the £150m
So there is gonna be a bit of a battle

I think Kane in his mind would have his first choice (probably city) but he’d be willing to move to United or Chelsea. Neither team are that far away from challenging on all fronts. Hell, Chelsea are in the CL final without a top class striker.

I agreed with an earlier post of yours which I can’t find now that it’s been a poor PL season. City who the media fawn over are going to get a maximum of 86 points with arguably the best manager, the best players and the most resources. To put that into perspective that’s the same total we finished on in 2017 and we still weren’t that close to winning it (IIRC Chelsea got 93 points?) and only five points more than Leicester got when they won the title.

 

[Raziel]

I think it’s interesting you think they don’t want to sell. Amazon Doc suggests they wanted to show off the new stadium to someone...calling Jose one of the two top managers in the world in 2020 didn’t stand up to any reasonable scrutiny unless you consider it was Levy trying to convince a prospective buyer that Spurs are main event calibre. I wouldn’t be surprised if the lack of naming rights are so there is space for a new owner to sponsor the stadium themselves. I think ESL threw a spanner in the works, but ultimately I think they have to sell or they have to start taking money out of the club, because they are an investment company. With the stadium done, with tv rights levelling out a bit, with ESL not happening at least right now, with the next step for Spurs being to challenge for title and CL, I think it’s the right time for them to sell and the right time for a new owner to take us forward.

Mate, for the stadium
- Could have been built at half the cost
- No need to build "best in class" everything
- The additional land acquisition around stadium, area re-investment make no sense
- A one/two year sponsorship deal would not have hurt selling
- they don't need to take money out, cash is worthless (have you seen interest rates?), they have literally created one of the best football assests in world football (it's working)
- It's been 20 years (time is money as well)

The idea that Levy miscalculated all of the above to get a worse margin than was possible is just not likely.

I know it tinkles people off, but nothing has ever indicated ENIC wants to sell (their original plan was to own multiple clubs)

Would they consider an offer if it came in? = sure, they are running a business but as @Bedfordspurs said, there are much better options for a prospective buyer, so in my view, there are only two options for an ENIC buyout

- Some billionaire Spurs fan (not sure we have any)
- A owner with a NFL franchise in London view (paying billions for American Franchises is not an unheard of thing)

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think folk would be slightly bonkers to think that TBH
We are owned by an investment company in name. That’s what they do
But buy default they need it to increase in value to get a return on their investment (yes they haven’t put money in)
Their not football fans or fanatics
They want to build a sustainable club as that’s beneficial and an easier sell at a higher price. That’s quite sensible of them
They would sell if someone made an offer
But why would someone buy us for the money they would want when you could buy Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Leeds for £200/£300m
Pump £200m in and have a greater return quicker. I mean no one is gonna tell me city was bigger than Leeds before the buy outs. And Saudi Sportswashing Machine are a one horse club that has fanatical delusional fans to drain of their pennies

I think it’s a different journey and probably a different style of owner that would buy Leeds or Saudi Sportswashing Machine, to who would buy Spurs.

If you buy one of those clubs, you have to go through all of the stuff we have just gone through. To build our profile, to genuinely build our revenues, to have sustained success at the top of the league. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done, I just think it’s different. Buy us, the infrastructure and the profile is kind of already there. We’ve already shown we can sustainably compete in the top 6. A new owner doing that for Leeds or Saudi Sportswashing Machine has to be really sure their initial 200 gets them in there, and keeps them there. Because they don’t have the infrastructure or the profile globally to sustain it. It then becomes a really expensive investment if you have to keep pumping money in to sustain the level, something a new owner of Spurs wouldn’t have to do, thanks to ENIC’s good work.

Where as a new owner for us may have to put money in from time to time, but the journey is different. Not about getting us in the top 6 in the U.K., but the top 12 in Europe. Growing the profile further - increasing our fan base further still over the next 10-15 years so the kids that now support City and used to support United support us, because we actually win things. Streaming rights. Potential new ESL stuff coming back on the agenda. There’s room to grow. But I think it’s a different job, in some ways less of a risk and just requiring deeper pockets, because our infrastructure buys us the seat at the table. Time will tell whether Everton’s new owners will do as well as ENIC did at getting us to the top table.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think Kane in his mind would have his first choice (probably city) but he’d be willing to move to United or Chelsea. Neither team are that far away from challenging on all fronts. Hell, Chelsea are in the CL final without a top class striker.

I agreed with an earlier post of yours which I can’t find now that it’s been a poor PL season. City who the media fawn over are going to get a maximum of 86 points with arguably the best manager, the best players and the most resources. To put that into perspective that’s the same total we finished on in 2017 and we still weren’t that close to winning it (IIRC Chelsea got 93 points?) and only five points more than Leicester got when they won the title.

Yep
It’s that poor
United ... 2 best will finish points wise nearer us than city
But then that’s Covid

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Believe it or not i have read ALL your posts on this and there is S ome sense in what you say. However you assume so many things as if they are all true and make your stance on them being so. Its you opinion but you try and make out that everything you say "They clearly want to sell now the stadium is done " Is just one of them.

Ok fine...but it’s a discussion forum. Can you not just assume that everything I say is my opinion and then debate that point if you want to? Rather than just shutting down any debate at all?

I think the ideal selling point for ENIC is an interesting discussion to be had. I think with the stadium finished, that point is closer than it has ever been before. I think with ESL not going ahead, that will have thrown a spanner in the works. Maybe ENIC think it’s time to get out now because it won’t happen for a long time. Maybe they’re gonna hang on until it happens.

Of course I can’t know exactly what they are thinking. But I like debating it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Mate, for the stadium
- Could have been built at half the cost
- No need to build "best in class" everything
- The additional land acquisition around stadium, area re-investment make no sense
- A one/two year sponsorship deal would not have hurt selling
- they don't need to take money out, cash is worthless (have you seen interest rates?), they have non-figuratively created one of the best football assests in world football (it's working)
- It's been 20 years (time is money as well)

The idea that Levy miscalculated all of the above to get a worse margin than was possible is just not likely.

I know it tinkles people off, but nothing has ever indicated ENIC wants to sell (their original plan was to own multiple clubs)

Would they consider an offer if it came in? = sure, they are running a business but as @Bedfordspurs said, there are much better options for a prospective buyer, so in my view, there are only two options for an ENIC buyout

- Some billionaire Spurs fan (not sure we have any)
- A owner with a NFL franchise in London view (paying billions for American Franchises is not an unheard of thing)

Again, I think it’s interesting that you think part of why they’ve built the stadium to that standard is because they don’t want to sell, rather than they do. Or maybe wanting to sell isn’t the right phrase - they’ve certainly put themselves in a position where they are sitting on a healthy cash generating asset and don’t need to sell, which is a great negotiating position for them. But this is where the property jibes come in - it’s a sure fire way to boost the value of the club by spending more on the highest spec possible stadium than it is to take that same approach to signing players. We are a 1.5B club in part because of the approach they took. That’s going to increase their profit if they get a good offer.

I don’t think he has miscalculated anything. I just can’t figure out why an investment company ultimately wouldn’t want to sell? Either they are going to have to take money out, or they are going to sell at some point. What other option is there?

 

[DubSpur]

Agreed. I think it really does boil down to that.

I don't know if I have made my points well enough or not, but I really do not understand why so many fans, not even on a pure instinctive level, are not more angry with Joe Lewis owning our club and not putting any of his money in, given that we have been really close to actual glory a few times now and we haven't done what was needed to sustain it. I'm not saying it's fair to expect someone I've never met to spend money to make me happy. Of course it's not fair. But I am a fan. And while football is a business, it's also unique in that owners run these clubs to some extent via the consent of the fanbase. Too many protests, too much unrest, at too loud a volume, and it puts them in a weaker position to profit on their investment. The Glazers will be somewhat concerned that their brand takes a hit when images are cast over the world of protestors breaking into the stadium and cancelling a game against their biggest rivals. This stuff can have an effect.

And with that in mind, I don't understand why fans on a purely instinctive level are ok to shrug it off. I get there is something in wanting to do it the right way, but I think we've had 20 years of that, and we've now built a stadium, and City and Chelsea changed the game anyway, so where is the actual glory in it? We can go nowhere else, so our chances of success quite non-figuratively increase if we lose Joe Lewis and have an owner that would be happy to invest more cash to make Spurs a title challenging club. If we could find someone who wasn't a money launderer or a human rights abuser, why would you not want that? Joe Lewis doesn't care about you, he cares about the profit on his investment. Why is it any more glorious or satisfying because we do it his way?

Maybe some fans cling onto football being a sport and want us to win on merit. For me billionaire owners or oil rich countries buying clubs and using them like playthings is the equivalent of drug use in cycling or athletics. I'd rather we did it the "right way" as winning due to outside money being pumped in is a hollow victory for me.
That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to be delighted with winning after going full on cheat mode with a sugar daddy.

 

[parklane1]

Ok fine...but it’s a discussion forum. Can you not just assume that everything I say is my opinion and then debate that point if you want to? Rather than just shutting down any debate at all?

I think the ideal selling point for ENIC is an interesting discussion to be had. I think with the stadium finished, that point is closer than it has ever been before. I think with ESL not going ahead, that will have thrown a spanner in the works. Maybe ENIC think it’s time to get out now because it won’t happen for a long time. Maybe they’re gonna hang on until it happens.

Of course I can’t know exactly what they are thinking. But I like debating it.

Fair enough and of course you are entitled to your OPINION just like we all are, maybe in your haste to post so many times on this subject you did not mean to give the impression that every thing is black and white ie They clearly want to sell now the stadium is done " that is not the only opinion that you seemed to think is written in stone that you have posted over the last week or so on Levy and co.

Of course you like everyone else is entitled to post what they want ( within the mods control of course), and of course you know what assumptions can do at the end of the day to us all.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Maybe I think that I am a better football fan than the rest of you cling onto football being a sport and want us to win on merit. For me billionaire owners or oil rich countries buying clubs and using them like playthings is the equivalent of drug use in cycling or athletics. I'd rather we did it the "right way" as winning due to outside money being pumped in is a hollow victory for me.
That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to be delighted with winning after going full on cheat mode with a sugar daddy.

See, that's what tends to confuse me. You have fans who think football is a sport and want us to win on 'merit' - the merit of cheap sustainability, which is literally followed by maybe three clubs out of 20 in the Prem, the other two being Arsenal and Burnley. And maybe 6 clubs out of 92 across all levels of the Football League, and 20 or 30 clubs in all of European top-flight football outside of Germany. Okay, whatever - it's romantic in its own way, I suppose.

Okay. But some of the same supporters don't see us as a sporting club at all - they see us as a 'business', and justify some of our more heinous decisions like furloughing ordinary people as necessary for the business, like we're Hewlett Packard needing to let people go because we didn't sell enough enterprise software for the month.

So, what is the actual point - is the club a sporting institution, is it a business? And if it is the latter, what do you care if a billionaire came in and pumped a few hundred million in to fund the business - isn't that what angel investing is and always has been?

I appreciate you may not share the latter view, mate, but it baffles me. People are simultaneously happy to be called 'customers' and derided as 'legacy fans' by the club because it's a business, but then don't want to see the club do business things like get bought out by more ambitious owners who invest capital in making us thrive. It's like making sure the Dr and Cr lines on the balance sheets are balanced really is the be-all and end-all, and I honestly don't get it at all.

 

[Baleforce]

See, that's what tends to confuse me. You have fans who think football is a sport and want us to win on 'merit' - the merit of cheap sustainability, which is non-figuratively followed by maybe three clubs out of 20 in the Prem, the other two being Arsenal and Burnley. And maybe 6 clubs out of 92 across all levels of the Football League, and 20 or 30 clubs in all of European top-flight football outside of Germany. Okay, whatever - it's romantic in its own way, I suppose.

Okay. But some of the same supporters don't see us as a sporting club at all - they see us as a 'business', and justify some of our more heinous decisions like furloughing ordinary people as necessary for the business, like we're Hewlett Packard needing to let people go because we didn't sell enough enterprise software for the month.

So, what is the actual point - is the club a sporting institution, is it a business? And if it is the latter, what do you care if a billionaire came in and pumped a few hundred million in to fund the business - isn't that what angel investing is and always has been?

I appreciate you may not share the latter view, mate, but it baffles me. People are simultaneously happy to be called 'customers' and derided as 'legacy fans' by the club because it's a business, but then don't want to see the club do business things like get bought out by more ambitious owners who invest capital in making us thrive. It's like making sure the Dr and Cr lines on the balance sheets are balanced really is the be-all and end-all, and I honestly don't get it at all.

Because this is the ultimate football challenge, if we do win this way we've done it better than anybody else, we've not just won, we've devalued the success of everyone else at the same time.

If you are going to play a video game you play it on hard mode.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Because this is the ultimate football challenge, if we do win this way we've done it better than anybody else, we've not just won, we've devalued the success of everyone else at the same time.

If you are going to play a video game you play it on hard mode.

But we just haven't devalued anyone else's success if we do it that way. In no reasonable metric to measure the value of the trophies, other than in the minds of a small proportion of Spurs fans, would that be the case.

 

[Baleforce]

But we just haven't devalued anyone else's success if we do it that way. In no reasonable metric to measure the value of the trophies, other than in the minds of a small proportion of Spurs fans, would that be the case.

It might just be in my mind, but its worth it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

See, that's what tends to confuse me. You have fans who think football is a sport and want us to win on 'merit' - the merit of cheap sustainability, which is non-figuratively followed by maybe three clubs out of 20 in the Prem, the other two being Arsenal and Burnley. And maybe 6 clubs out of 92 across all levels of the Football League, and 20 or 30 clubs in all of European top-flight football outside of Germany. Okay, whatever - it's romantic in its own way, I suppose.

Okay. But some of the same supporters don't see us as a sporting club at all - they see us as a 'business', and justify some of our more heinous decisions like furloughing ordinary people as necessary for the business, like we're Hewlett Packard needing to let people go because we didn't sell enough enterprise software for the month.

So, what is the actual point - is the club a sporting institution, is it a business? And if it is the latter, what do you care if a billionaire came in and pumped a few hundred million in to fund the business - isn't that what angel investing is and always has been?

I appreciate you may not share the latter view, mate, but it baffles me. People are simultaneously happy to be called 'customers' and derided as 'legacy fans' by the club because it's a business, but then don't want to see the club do business things like get bought out by more ambitious owners who invest capital in making us thrive. It's like making sure the Dr and Cr lines on the balance sheets are balanced really is the be-all and end-all, and I honestly don't get it at all.

Agreed.

I just don't understand this willingness to do it the slow and steady way, when a new owner quite literally increases our chances of success, if they are willing to pump some money in. There is no glory in doing it this way when we are already fighting with one hand tied behind our back when compared to United, City and Chelsea. And when Liverpool and and Arsenal are also willing to make more decisive moves.

 

[Baleforce]

Agreed.

I just don't understand this willingness to do it the slow and steady way, when a new owner quite non-figuratively increases our chances of success, if they are willing to pump some money in. There is no glory in doing it this way when we are already fighting with one hand tied behind our back when compared to United, City and Chelsea. And when Liverpool and and Arsenal are also willing to make more decisive moves.

I think a new owner more than likely wouldn't pump any money in, how would they make it back?

At some point football will sort itself out and clubs won't be allowed to spend more than they make, thats when it all comes back to us, we'll be decades ahead of our peers.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Mate, for the stadium
- Could have been built at half the cost
- No need to build "best in class" everything
- The additional land acquisition around stadium, area re-investment make no sense
- A one/two year sponsorship deal would not have hurt selling
- they don't need to take money out, cash is worthless (have you seen interest rates?), they have non-figuratively created one of the best football assests in world football (it's working)
- It's been 20 years (time is money as well)

The idea that Levy miscalculated all of the above to get a worse margin than was possible is just not likely.

I know it tinkles people off, but nothing has ever indicated ENIC wants to sell (their original plan was to own multiple clubs)

Would they consider an offer if it came in? = sure, they are running a business but as @Bedfordspurs said, there are much better options for a prospective buyer, so in my view, there are only two options for an ENIC buyout

- Some billionaire Spurs fan (not sure we have any)
- A owner with a NFL franchise in London view (paying billions for American Franchises is not an unheard of thing)

Actually thinking about this more, an NFL owner / American sporting group who sees the opportunity to use Tottenham to create an expansion franchise in Europe grow the profile of the NFL globally, makes a tonne of sense. I can see this being a really realistic route, as it's a proper reason why someone would pay north of $1.5B to buy us, rather than Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Leeds for a lot less. With the NFL tied into it, there is loads of growth still to go in that sport, and the sums spoken about are common as you say.

I'm excited! I hope this happens.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Because this is the ultimate football challenge, if we do win this way we've done it better than anybody else, we've not just won, we've devalued the success of everyone else at the same time.

If you are going to play a video game you play it on hard mode.

But that isn't what businesses do. Businesses don't care about doing it on easy mode or hard mode, they care about growing by any means possible, snuffing out their competition and selling as much as possible. If an angel investor helps them grow, they'll take it 100 times out of 100, except when the personal ego of their owners gets in the way. Whether that investment comes from Saudi Arabia or North Korea - only limit is whether it's lawful or not, and even that isn't really a limit for businesses.

So, what are we, a sporting institution or a business? And which facet is more important to the fans?

For the folks who say 'we're a business, ENIC have a right to do what they want in terms of being miserly, overcharging Spurs customers, furloughing staff, etc.' - they should also be 100% open to getting angel investors in who invest to take us up a notch.

Likewise, for fans of clubs as sporting institutions, they should want proactive owners willing to invest to win. It's just this subset of folks in between who simultaneously think the club is a business but don't want outside investment that baffle me - amorality is the name of the game in business, whereas doing things on 'hard mode' is absolutely not businesslike.