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Copa America 2015

wiziwig said:
Agree with Spurs7891 post #49...

When Argentina fail people will always look at Messi.

But that's Argentina's two biggest national finals - four hours of football with no goals scored and for a squad that boasts the likes of Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain, Tevez, Lavezzi. The ultimate flat track bullies , the lot of them .

That Higuain penalty had 'bottle job' written all over it.
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Of course they will, because none of those other names is (by their own claim or media) claiming to be the greatest ever player.

That's the whole point of the Messi argument, the last time Argentina had a player with a claim to be the greatest of all time, he delivered for country, and quite honestly with a less talented side than the current Argentina one.
 
I have no doubt if you put Messi in Argentinas 80s squad, he'd win the World Cup. That argument is just as stupid as saying Maradona is better then Messi or Messi is better than Maradona. It's a different era. I think Messi would much rather be running against Foerster, Cabrini, Sansom, Stevens then against the likes of Hummels, Lahm, Kompany, Vertonghen etc. as he did the previous World Cup where he dragged Argentina to the final. Unfortunately, he was up against a better Germany team than Maradonas were.

I'd prefer to just admire both as they are. World class footballers.
 
Raziel said:
Of course they will, because none of those other names is (by their own claim or media) claiming to be the greatest ever player.

That's the whole point of the Messi argument, the last time Argentina had a player with a claim to be the greatest of all time, he delivered for country, and quite honestly with a less talented side than the current Argentina one.
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Maradona delivered once (86) and failed (90) . Never have I seen one player , almost singlehandily carry a team to a final as in 1986. However in 1990 he failed miserably by the standards we are setting Messi, in fact he didn't score a goal or assist if I'm not mistaken as the team scraped their way to the final?

As Mumorn says in his above post (#62), best to just admire both for what they are , world class.
 
wiziwig said:
Maradona delivered once (86) and failed (90) . Never have I seen one player , almost singlehandily carry a team to a final as in 1986. However in 1990 he failed miserably by the standards we are setting Messi, in fact he didn't score a goal or assist if I'm not mistaken as the team scraped their way to the final?

As Mumorn says in his above post (#62), best to just admire both for what they are , world class.
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Maradona single handedly took a shyte Argentina team to the 1990 WC Final. His contributions in that WC is exceptional. He didn't score any goal but he brilliantly created the goal for Caniggia when they beat Brazil in the Second Round despite getting outplayed. He also contributed in defence, when he stopped a goal-bound shot by his hand against Soviet Union in the group stages. It was illegal but not spotted by the ref. He also missed a penalty against Yugoslavia in the Quarter Finals but he still took and scored another penalty against Italy in the semi final. Unlike Messi, Maradona never went missing for Argentina which makes him special.
 
It does beg the question why can't Messi win tournaments? He has all of the ability in the world to do so. Then again, he has done the next best thing i.e. get to a final, twice. I think Messi is unrivalled in club football. His stats and performances at club level are ridiculous.
 
Spurs7891 said:
Maradona single handedly took a shyte Argentina team to the 1990 WC Final. His contributions in that WC is exceptional. He didn't score any goal but he brilliantly created the goal for Caniggia when they beat Brazil in the Second Round despite getting outplayed. He also contributed in defence, when he stopped a goal-bound shot by his hand against Soviet Union in the group stages. It was illegal but not spotted by the ref. He also missed a penalty against Yugoslavia in the Quarter Finals but he still took and scored another penalty against Italy in the semi final. Unlike Messi, Maradona never went missing for Argentina which makes him special.
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Messi rarely goes missing for Argentina though. Him not winning competitions or not scoring in games is not him going missing. Will he ever win anything else with Argentina? I don't know. I don't think there overall team is good enough to win a tournament, the managers they tend to have are clueless too. World Cup 2018 led by Simeone and they may have a chance.
 
Spurs7891 said:
Maradona single handedly took a shyte Argentina team to the 1990 WC Final. His contributions in that WC is exceptional. He didn't score any goal but he brilliantly created the goal for Caniggia when they beat Brazil in the Second Round despite getting outplayed. He also contributed in defence, when he stopped a goal-bound shot by his hand against Soviet Union in the group stages. It was illegal but not spotted by the ref. He also missed a penalty against Yugoslavia in the Quarter Finals but he still took and scored another penalty against Italy in the semi final. Unlike Messi, Maradona never went missing for Argentina which makes him special.
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I do feel you're giving him more credit than he deserves with regards to Argentina's 1990 WC. Argentina qualified out of their group of four as one of the best third-placed teams! They then managed just 2 goals in the knock-out stages, one being a penalty. They got to the final winning no friends along the way with their cheating ways. Was total anti football so no special credit going to Diego from me for that tournament.

Maradona is special, arguably the best ever. He played at a time when the pitches were rugged , when defenders could kick you, when the balls and boots were heavier. Loads of other variables to throw up in the debate about the greatness of the two players, but all this talk of Messi not being as special due to his national team's failure is nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

Eusabio, Cruyff, Pushkas, Best, Zico, Socrates - All greats but no major national honours.
 
wiziwig said:
Maradona is special, arguably the best ever. He played at a time when the pitches were rugged , when defenders could kick you, when the balls and boots were heavier.
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messi plays in an era where his opponents are a lot better (than maradona's opponents)
 
Spurs7891 said:
Maradona led Napoli to their only European trophy, the UEFA Cup in 1989. Mind you, the old UEFA Cup was a much stronger competition than the current UEFA Cup.
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The champions league is much stronger then the World Cup currently though and infact the bigger competition. But people are blinkered in thinking he has to win a cup with Argentina. What if he was born in Venezeula who have absolutely no chance? It's quite pathetic that the only way someone can be deemed greatest of all time is if they win an international competition. Half the people in this board couldnt even care less about international football. U
 
Mumorn said:
The champions league is much stronger then the World Cup currently though and infact the bigger competition. But people are blinkered in thinking he has to win a cup with Argentina. What if he was born in Venezeula who have absolutely no chance? It's quite pathetic that the only way someone can be deemed greatest of all time is if they win an international competition. Half the people in this board couldnt even care less about international football. U
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I agree to a point Mumorn. But the greats such as Zidane, Maradona etc have won World Cups. It's just one method of measuring greatness. But I also accept the argument from wiziwig that many all time greats haven't won a WC.
 
Mumorn said:
The champions league is much stronger then the World Cup currently though and infact the bigger competition. But people are blinkered in thinking he has to win a cup with Argentina. What if he was born in Venezeula who have absolutely no chance? It's quite pathetic that the only way someone can be deemed greatest of all time is if they win an international competition. Half the people in this board couldnt even care less about international football. U
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While I agree that you don't have to win the world cup to be considered a all time great, it does come into play when trying to place him as the best of all time. The players considered for the best of all time, be it Pele, Maradona, Zidane or whoever, they had a certain connection with their national team that Messi so far hasn't shown. Even a over the hill Zidane pretty much dragged France into a world cup final on his own, until headbutting Materazzi in the final.

Not saying that Zidane was a better player than Messi, but he has won the same things as Messi, but on top of that he's done it with his national team aswell. And your argument would be valid if he was from Venezuela, but he's from Argentina. A side that has Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain, Mascherano, Tevez, Pastore, Zabaleta and so on. I don't think it's a strectch to say that a Messi in inspirational form probably should have led Argentina to the Copa America title at least.
 
this has become a messi thread and there's another one of those i'm going to comment on but this was one of the most disappointing tournaments I've seen in a while, very sterile matches summed up by the snoozefest final, brazil looked even worse than in the world cup last year, Uruguay are toothless without suarez, Peru caught the eye as the only team to play with a bit of flair. And the Albiceleste have too many cooks but no finished product, astounding when you look at the talent they have.
 
Mr_B said:
this has become a messi thread and there's another one of those i'm going to comment on but this was one of the most disappointing tournaments I've seen in a while, very sterile matches summed up by the snoozefest final, brazil looked even worse than in the world cup last year, Uruguay are toothless without suarez, Peru caught the eye as the only team to play with a bit of flair. And the Albiceleste have too many cooks but no finished product, astounding when you look at the talent they have.
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South American football has been getting worse for some time now .. Brazil has lost its identity as a side for a long time, Uruguay looked good for a moment with 3 attacking options, now back to norm, and Argentina seems to be South America's Holland, you look at the team sheet and thinks "wtf, these guys are going to win everything" and it never works out that way.
 
Raziel said:
South American football has been getting worse for some time now .. Brazil has lost its identity as a side for a long time, Uruguay looked good for a moment with 3 attacking options, now back to norm, and Argentina seems to be South America's Holland, you look at the team sheet and thinks "wtf, these guys are going to win everything" and it never works out that way.
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Argentina are the most hot and cold nation in world football. They can smash teams 6-0 one game, then scrape a win against Iran thanks to a bit of Messi magic in the next. They really should have won the last World Cup considering the team they had and the support behind them at every game, every match was like a home game.
 
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