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Chelsea Post-Match Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Your full team please, not selected exerts .
Well obviously the rest is the same.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
List it please with your tactical formation and game plan. Or are you afraid it might get picked apart?
****, you're more demanding than my wife! Want me to buy you some shiny while I'm at it?
-----------------------------Lloris---------------------------------
Walker------------Kaboul----------Dawson--------------Verts---
---------------------Sandro----------Bentaleb---------------------
--------Lennon-------Paulinho------------≠Townsend-----
----------------------------Adebayor----------------------------
I'd tell Bentaleb to sit as a double pivot with Sandro and for him to feed Lennon/Ade quickly on the break.
Most importantly I'd tell them not to fall into Mourinho's trap of gradually taking possession further and further up the field until they spring our trap. The defence and the midfield needs to sit much deeper. They're the home side, the onus is on them to take the game to us. Mourinho will tell his scumbags to do the same so just be patient - their fans will get on their backs soon enough if we frustrate them.
In the ≠Townsend role I'd probably go for Chadli (although I can understand why some wouldn't) for his aerial threat.
I'd tell Dawson and Kaboul not to split so far - I don't know who the **** has been working with them in training but I can assume said coach has never seen a central defensive partnership before. I'd tell Lennon that as Sandro is offering a little extra protection on his side he doesn't need to defend as much as he normally does and to try and push up level with their last defenders as much as possible. I'd tell Ade to stay central and not to go hiding in the channels, if he can't do that then sub him. If we're not offering any threat on the break (and we're not with Ade out wide) then they don't have to fear the counter.
Or we can just play Timmeh's "Hugo up front" tactic (as I will now call it) on the basis of "**** it, we'll probably lose anyway"....
metalgear
Nayim
Sorry can't buy the argument that it's just a series of mistakes. To me we were overwhelmed.
Sure some neat passes with Bentaleb at the centre but achieving zilch. At least during AVB's time we were pushing deeper and closing in to the opponents penalty box. Yesterday it didn't look like we were going anywhere. Chelsea were well aware of that but chose when and how to put pressure...
...and it was mostly on Sandro...just in front of the back four. I thought Sandro was lucky to stay on the pitch. He was in all kinds of trouble because that high line meant a quick turnover and attack ...very smart selective pressure indeed. Let us pass the ball where it didn't hurt. Lots of jiggly tackles and ankle tapping where it did.
...eto was through onside and that tackle from loris was probably a red...
... Unfortunate but kaboul could not do anything for that goal....he did touch the player but had he not, high chance it was still going in.
So even without verts and walkers mistakes and no red for kaboul, it still could've been 3-0 and a red for loris ....
Did you see that the players getting more demoralized as time went on? No more running for each other, hence no outlet for verts for the easy pass, no defenders running back deep to provide options. Was a matter of time that the mistakes would come.
Sure some neat passes with Bentaleb at the centre but achieving zilch. At least during AVB's time we were pushing deeper and closing in to the opponents penalty box. Yesterday it didn't look like we were going anywhere. Chelsea were well aware of that but chose when and how to put pressure...
...and it was mostly on Sandro...just in front of the back four. I thought Sandro was lucky to stay on the pitch. He was in all kinds of trouble because that high line meant a quick turnover and attack ...very smart selective pressure indeed. Let us pass the ball where it didn't hurt. Lots of jiggly tackles and ankle tapping where it did.
...eto was through onside and that tackle from loris was probably a red...
... Unfortunate but kaboul could not do anything for that goal....he did touch the player but had he not, high chance it was still going in.
So even without verts and walkers mistakes and no red for kaboul, it still could've been 3-0 and a red for loris ....
Did you see that the players getting more demoralized as time went on? No more running for each other, hence no outlet for verts for the easy pass, no defenders running back deep to provide options. Was a matter of time that the mistakes would come.
I
indianspur
Guest
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
A while back I had a conversation with you about AVB and his obsession with wanting 60-70% possession every game and I suggested that it would be better if we allowed the opposition more of the ball, sat back, and then quickly win the ball back and break at speed. We had the players to do this too. Chelsea showed that against a lesser team, which we were, its highly effective.
I
indianspur
Guest
i think Holtby might be the kind of player LVG will have a lot of time for....just a feeling
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Thank you. I don't know what " some shiny" is, but if I am more demanding than your wife, you are a very lucky man indeed! 
Right lets look at your team. First off, the players responsible for the individual mistakes are all still there, so there is no reason to expect them to do anything different and we would still concede four goals and have a man sent off on the hour mark.
Most posters agree that Kaboul and Daws are not a good centre back combination, yet you have chosen to go with them. Despite any of the instructions you would give them, they have proved on many occasions they simply don't work well together. Great choice.
You would play Verts (by most people's opinion) our best centre back out of position at left back. Despite his strong protestations to AVB he didn't want to play there and didn't like playing there against tricky speedy wingers against whom he would be cruelly exposed. Very sensible selection.
You would chose a less than fully fit Walker to play against Hazard and compound this error by releasing Lennon from his defensive duties and rely on Sandro to cover. A sure fire recipe for disaster IMO.
Lennon has been so disappointing of late, offering absolutely no offensive threat yet you would persist with him. A selection of blind hope and expectation rather than cold experience.
Pauli has been nothing other than a huge let down this season. To play him in the pivotal role of linking defence and attack as a box to box midfielder hasn't worked in any game this season. Why you should suddenly expect it to work against the top team in the league is simply baffling. His cameo showed him up for what he doesn't bring to the team at the moment. In attack, having played a good ball in to Lennon, he just sat and watched instead of breaking a gut to support the attack and get on the end of Lennon's pull back. In defence, he just watched a Chelsea player run past him and didn't track back. A failing of his on many similar occasions this year. His stats show that his top speed was the slowest of all Spurs players on Saturday - even behind Lloris and Dawson. He only appears to have one gear - second. Henceforth to be known as invisiblinho secondgearinho.
Ade never flourishes by himself against two strong hard centre backs ala Terry and his mate. He kept moving to the channels to get out of their way. For him to be effective, he needs support beside him. In your team, there is none.
We wouldn't pose any sort of offensive threat with the line.up and tactics you have set out above. Defensively, we would probably have been even weaker without the twin right hand defensive cover of Naughton ( who I thought was our best player on Saturday) and Walker, who between them largely nullified Hazard. And the player selection would not have eliminated the individual errors, as the same players were on the park.
See how easy it is to criticise the selection, tactics and game plan of others? There is certainly no such thing as "the correct team" , which you have stated previously.
Right lets look at your team. First off, the players responsible for the individual mistakes are all still there, so there is no reason to expect them to do anything different and we would still concede four goals and have a man sent off on the hour mark.
Most posters agree that Kaboul and Daws are not a good centre back combination, yet you have chosen to go with them. Despite any of the instructions you would give them, they have proved on many occasions they simply don't work well together. Great choice.
You would play Verts (by most people's opinion) our best centre back out of position at left back. Despite his strong protestations to AVB he didn't want to play there and didn't like playing there against tricky speedy wingers against whom he would be cruelly exposed. Very sensible selection.
You would chose a less than fully fit Walker to play against Hazard and compound this error by releasing Lennon from his defensive duties and rely on Sandro to cover. A sure fire recipe for disaster IMO.
Lennon has been so disappointing of late, offering absolutely no offensive threat yet you would persist with him. A selection of blind hope and expectation rather than cold experience.
Pauli has been nothing other than a huge let down this season. To play him in the pivotal role of linking defence and attack as a box to box midfielder hasn't worked in any game this season. Why you should suddenly expect it to work against the top team in the league is simply baffling. His cameo showed him up for what he doesn't bring to the team at the moment. In attack, having played a good ball in to Lennon, he just sat and watched instead of breaking a gut to support the attack and get on the end of Lennon's pull back. In defence, he just watched a Chelsea player run past him and didn't track back. A failing of his on many similar occasions this year. His stats show that his top speed was the slowest of all Spurs players on Saturday - even behind Lloris and Dawson. He only appears to have one gear - second. Henceforth to be known as invisiblinho secondgearinho.
Ade never flourishes by himself against two strong hard centre backs ala Terry and his mate. He kept moving to the channels to get out of their way. For him to be effective, he needs support beside him. In your team, there is none.
We wouldn't pose any sort of offensive threat with the line.up and tactics you have set out above. Defensively, we would probably have been even weaker without the twin right hand defensive cover of Naughton ( who I thought was our best player on Saturday) and Walker, who between them largely nullified Hazard. And the player selection would not have eliminated the individual errors, as the same players were on the park.
See how easy it is to criticise the selection, tactics and game plan of others? There is certainly no such thing as "the correct team" , which you have stated previously.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I don't deny it's effective, it's just not the model I want us to aim for. It's horrible football even when it works.
I don't deny it's effective, it's just not the model I want us to aim for. It's horrible football even when it works.
I
indianspur
Guest
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
the ideal is to use both methods.....its what made the Utd teams of the 90s and early 2000s so brilliant to watch imo. They could sit back and break at pace at will as well as having the ability to keep the ball and control possession when it was required
the ideal is to use both methods.....its what made the Utd teams of the 90s and early 2000s so brilliant to watch imo. They could sit back and break at pace at will as well as having the ability to keep the ball and control possession when it was required
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Eh? The Verts slip happened at 0-0. No sign of our players being demoralised at that stage.
Thank you. I don't know what " some shiny" is, but if I am more demanding than your wife, you are a very lucky man indeed!
It mostly involves diamonds or Chanel, I don't think you'd be interested.
My team/instructions wouldn't have us under the pressure we were under when the mistakes happened. Less pressure = lower likelihood of mistakes.
I agree they're far from the ideal pairing, but when we don't have a fit left back they're the only option.
Except he wasn't exposed because Chelsea don't use width like that - they have inverted wingers who tuck in. Which would drag Verts into the middle where he can team up with the other two CBs - more solid than playing him in the middle and some unknown on the left.
He was fit enough to play right wing in Timmeh's "Lloris up front" formation, why not right back in my catenaccio? It's not like he'd be steaming up the wing on the overlap, as Lennon would be staying wide.
He's our only right winger and your statement of absolutes (when at least half of this forum and most of the football community disagrees with you) does you no favours.
I think you need to read less of KDs posts - he's having a bad effect on you
Paulinho is the only fit box to box midfielder we have, so whether you like his selection or not, that formation requires picking him. And I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as you thi
I'm not sure if you noticed on Saturday, but Ade did nothing in the channels either. He wouldn't do anything in the middle under Timmeh's "Hugo up front" formation/tactics as he fallen into Mourinho's trap where they're all sat comfortably in position waiting for us. On the break, he'd be more useful in the middle.
I disagree - in fact I think that's the only way to play Chelsea at their place unless you're one of the few top teams in the world.
Except chelsea don't use Hazard for running to the corner flag - they use him to cut inside. Where there is already other cover. Where that cover isn't the right winger.
Again, I think you really need to learn a bit about randomness. You wouldn't have to change much at all to make those mistakes disappear - in fact what you changed wouldn't have to be the right thing to do, it would just have to be something different. You simply can't claim that those events would happen in any other circumstance because the odds that they would are ridiculously minuscule. The only thing you can say is that under less pressure (and we were under a lot at the start of the second half) mistakes are less likely. Under my formation/team selection/tactics there would have been less pressure.
You're right, there is never one correct team - it can be achieved a number of ways. There are definitely wrong teams though, one of them being the one chosen on Saturday.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
It would be great to be able to do both, but I'd rather we back to being good at controlling games first - the rest can follow.
It would be great to be able to do both, but I'd rather we back to being good at controlling games first - the rest can follow.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
It mostly involves diamonds or Chanel, I don't think you'd be interested.
You are right there. Possibly the only sensible thing you have said in this segment.
My team/instructions wouldn't have us under the pressure we were under when the mistakes happened. Less pressure = lower likelihood of mistakes.
How do you know that TS's instructions were different from the ones you issued? There is certainly nothing to believe your Instructions to the players and selection would have resulted in " less pressure".
I agree they're far from the ideal pairing, but when we don't have a fit left back they're the only option.
We did have a fit left back - Fryers. We could also have played Naughton there. So there were other options. Your absolutes do you no favors
Except he wasn't exposed because Chelsea don't use width like that - they have inverted wingers who tuck in. Which would drag Verts into the middle where he can team up with the other two CBs - more solid than playing him in the middle and some unknown on the left.
He was exposed against Schurle - hence his slip.
He was fit enough to play right wing in Timmeh's "Lloris up front" formation, why not right back in my catenaccio? It's not like he'd be steaming up the wing on the overlap, as Lennon would be staying wide.
He was fit enough because he wasn't to be left one on one with Hazard.
He's our only right winger and your statement of absolutes (when at least half of this forum and most of the football community disagrees with you) does you no favours.
Again with the absolutes. Lennon is not our only right winger. Townsend has played there with great success for us and for England. Lennon is on a poor run of form at the moment. Who else on this forum or 'most of the football community" would disagree with that?
I think you need to read less of KDs posts - he's having a bad effect on you
Paulinho is the only fit box to box midfielder we have, so whether you like his selection or not, that formation requires picking him. And I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as you thi
So that is why you have picked him. You have chosen a formation and then selected players to fit into it regardless of how they are playing. Very sensible.
I'm not sure if you noticed on Saturday, but Ade did nothing in the channels either. He wouldn't do anything in the middle under Timmeh's "Hugo up front" formation/tactics as he fallen into Mourinho's trap where they're all sat comfortably in position waiting for us. On the break, he'd be more useful in the middle.
I agree he did nothing much in the channels either on Saturday, which is why I said he needed support. Pauli doesn't provide it so you are not making best use of Ade. To tell him to just stay central wont work against Terry and co.
I disagree - in fact I think that's the only way to play Chelsea at their place unless you're one of the few top teams in the world.
There is more than one way to play against any team. Take wet Spam's 19 th century tactics. Crude but effective. I would not want us to revert to Santinis park the bus tactics.
Except chelsea don't use Hazard for running to the corner flag - they use him to cut inside. Where there is already other cover. Where that cover isn't the right winger.
Again, I think you really need to learn a bit about randomness. You wouldn't have to change much at all to make those mistakes disappear - in fact what you changed wouldn't have to be the right thing to do, it would just have to be something different. You simply can't claim that those events would happen in any other circumstance because the odds that they would are ridiculously minuscule. The only thing you can say is that under less pressure (and we were under a lot at the start of the second half) mistakes are less likely. Under my formation/team selection/tactics there would have been less pressure.
And you need to learn about randomness too. If some mistakes disappear others could quite as easily appear. There is nothing to suggest that with your team and formation, there would be less pressure making mistakes less likely.
You're right, there is never one correct team - it can be achieved a number of ways. There are definitely wrong teams though, one of them being the one chosen on Saturday.
Thank you. Lets just leave it at that.
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Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
It mostly involves diamonds or Chanel, I don't think you'd be interested.
My team/instructions wouldn't have us under the pressure we were under when the mistakes happened. Less pressure = lower likelihood of mistakes.
I agree they're far from the ideal pairing, but when we don't have a fit left back they're the only option.
Except he wasn't exposed because Chelsea don't use width like that - they have inverted wingers who tuck in. Which would drag Verts into the middle where he can team up with the other two CBs - more solid than playing him in the middle and some unknown on the left.
He was fit enough to play right wing in Timmeh's "Lloris up front" formation, why not right back in my catenaccio? It's not like he'd be steaming up the wing on the overlap, as Lennon would be staying wide.
He's our only right winger and your statement of absolutes (when at least half of this forum and most of the football community disagrees with you) does you no favours.
I think you need to read less of KDs posts - he's having a bad effect on you
Paulinho is the only fit box to box midfielder we have, so whether you like his selection or not, that formation requires picking him. And I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as you thi
I'm not sure if you noticed on Saturday, but Ade did nothing in the channels either. He wouldn't do anything in the middle under Timmeh's "Hugo up front" formation/tactics as he fallen into Mourinho's trap where they're all sat comfortably in position waiting for us. On the break, he'd be more useful in the middle.
I disagree - in fact I think that's the only way to play Chelsea at their place unless you're one of the few top teams in the world.
Except chelsea don't use Hazard for running to the corner flag - they use him to cut inside. Where there is already other cover. Where that cover isn't the right winger.
Again, I think you really need to learn a bit about randomness. You wouldn't have to change much at all to make those mistakes disappear - in fact what you changed wouldn't have to be the right thing to do, it would just have to be something different. You simply can't claim that those events would happen in any other circumstance because the odds that they would are ridiculously minuscule. The only thing you can say is that under less pressure (and we were under a lot at the start of the second half) mistakes are less likely. Under my formation/team selection/tactics there would have been less pressure.
You're right, there is never one correct team - it can be achieved a number of ways. There are definitely wrong teams though, one of them being the one chosen on Saturday.
All this is very easy to say with the benefit of hindsight.
I don't agree with you about us being under less pressure = mistakes not happening. Vertonghen was under little pressure, Walker was under even less, take the Kaboul pen out because it wasn't a Penn. For whatever reason, Sandro fell over. I think it's a bit of an impossible arguement to conclude as no matter what formation/players/tactics are picked week in week out, there is a risk (albeit a small one, pro footballers we are talking about here) that a ridiculous goal scoring error will occur.
Every single pass, throw-in, kick out, foul, header, shot etc in a match from the first second influences the entire rest of the game. So while we can say that a different team probably would have meant that Vertonghen wouldn't have got the ball in the 56th minute and 30seconds (or whatever it was) and therefore he wouldn't have fell on his ****, it's impossible to say that Lennon would not fall on his **** trying to clear a ball from the right back position having been penned in by Hazard attacking all game.
On the Dawson/Kaboul partnership. For me that's down to them just not performing. They will have worked together in training all week in order for TS to select them. They've let the side down with their performance, that's it.
Other than that I agree with your team selection bar Paulinho, mainly because I don't rate him, although I appreciate that with Eriksen injured there's not really many other viable options.
Scara, do you play at a decent level or coach?
I used to play left back at a decent level until my mid-teens when smoking/girls/guitars/drug/etc took a far more prominent role in my life.
As for the rest of the post, we're all going to have an opinion on what will and won't work. I have to disagree on Dawson/Kaboul though - they're not my preferred pairing either but they have split like that before. Someone needs to coach that out of them.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Scara - do you realise that you spoil some of your (IMO well thought out) arguments with your childish use of 'Timmeh' and "Hugo up front" and such like?
I too would've gone with something similar to your formation.... Possibly making two changes.
Firstly I would've had Vertonghen in the centre alongside Dawson (I would rather have a weakness out at full back than in the centre of the defence - especially against a team who tend to attack through the centre). I would've played Fryers or even Naughton at left back.
Secondly I would've played Townsend instead of Lennon on the right. I thought that Cole looked very uncomfortable against Townsend earlier this season and, while Townsend's head down running can be frustrating, I think having him on the right would've provided us with some sort of way of breaking down Chelsea's rigid defensive style without having to over commit players forward.
Scara - do you realise that you spoil some of your (IMO well thought out) arguments with your childish use of 'Timmeh' and "Hugo up front" and such like?
I too would've gone with something similar to your formation.... Possibly making two changes.
Firstly I would've had Vertonghen in the centre alongside Dawson (I would rather have a weakness out at full back than in the centre of the defence - especially against a team who tend to attack through the centre). I would've played Fryers or even Naughton at left back.
Secondly I would've played Townsend instead of Lennon on the right. I thought that Cole looked very uncomfortable against Townsend earlier this season and, while Townsend's head down running can be frustrating, I think having him on the right would've provided us with some sort of way of breaking down Chelsea's rigid defensive style without having to over commit players forward.
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I do, but I just can't help myself!
I did consider that (in fact I do in most matches where Verts on the left is an option). With the way Chelsea cut in though, I think Verts would be drawn into the middle too (he can follow his man if our left winger is reasonably sound defensively) meaning that he'd end up defending in the middle anyway. I just don't trust Naughton at left back at all (not his fault, not his position) and Fryers is too much of an unknown for me to put him into a match like this.
I think it's an either or - on current form neither will be a goal scoring threat, and there's always the hope that Townsend will pass the ball. Lennon is pretty good at reading the game on the break though and often (in my memory anyway) gets the killer ball right after running 30 yards - Townsend (again, in my memory) tends to fluff it.
I do, but I just can't help myself!
I did consider that (in fact I do in most matches where Verts on the left is an option). With the way Chelsea cut in though, I think Verts would be drawn into the middle too (he can follow his man if our left winger is reasonably sound defensively) meaning that he'd end up defending in the middle anyway. I just don't trust Naughton at left back at all (not his fault, not his position) and Fryers is too much of an unknown for me to put him into a match like this.
I think it's an either or - on current form neither will be a goal scoring threat, and there's always the hope that Townsend will pass the ball. Lennon is pretty good at reading the game on the break though and often (in my memory anyway) gets the killer ball right after running 30 yards - Townsend (again, in my memory) tends to fluff it.