Carlyle takeover, was Cain Hoy takeover

[jimmyb]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

The same way your only allowed 11 players on the pitch.

Not sure if serious?

Are you really putting a law of the game in the same bracket as European competition law?

 

[supie]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

Some great posts and insights throughout this thread it has to be said. On a rather simplistic front (perhaps?) could it not be argued that the club's footballing fortunes (positives and negatives) over the course of ENICs tenure have hinged to quite a large extent on marginal moments which could have gone one way or the other...? Specifically I can think of defeat to Spammers and the food poising debacle, Chelsea undeservedly winning the CL, Bale getting injured during the Europa league game when he was flying, etc... With the exception of the Bale injury which could be looked at as being a cavalier selection approach by AVB, the others were circumstantial and in the case of Chelsea outside ENICs influence.

I wonder how people would be reacting to a takeover if we had qualified for the CL over the past 3 seasons particular when there is a case to say that ENICs ability to directly impact those events was limited.

The flip side to those arguments are that for example the year we finished 4th and didn't qualify for CL due to Chelsea's win was down to ENICs lacking of spending in January and similarly if Moutinho has have come to acute reliance on Bale could have been avoided and as such he could have been rested more and avoided injury.

My point is ENICs "failings"
It could be argued have been self inflicted (I think following the sale of Bale this is 100% true by the way) however prior to last season it could also be argued that circumstances outside of their control determined the fate of the club.



Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

Not sure if serious?

Are you really putting a law of the game in the same bracket as European competition law?

:lol:


Could they not go to European law and state the restriction of letting more people play the game at any one time.. couldn't they say, we have 12 capable of playing.

Its no different, if you don't want to play by the rules of a competition you simply cannot enter the competition or even pick and choose which rules to abide too.

Women's golf is an example whereby women wanted to join the men's tour but were refused by the simple rule that they are women. If there was ever a case that should or could be overturned then that would be it, instead they found a compromise and said.. play by invitation.

Only the teams wanting to cheat the system.. which is about 5 teams, would want to go this route of European laws, they are not even the super heavy weight old G4 clan either and therefore would be chucked out of the competition IMO no quibble if they didn't want to tow the party line. Remember FFP is for the old G4 clan's protection plan.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

Some great posts and insights throughout this thread it has to be said. On a rather simplistic front (perhaps?) could it not be argued that the club's footballing fortunes (positives and negatives) over the course of ENICs tenure have hinged to quite a large extent on marginal moments which could have gone one way or the other...? Specifically I can think of defeat to Spammers and the food poising debacle, Chelsea undeservedly winning the CL, Bale getting injured during the Europa league game when he was flying, etc... With the exception of the Bale injury which could be looked at as being a cavalier selection approach by AVB, the others were circumstantial and in the case of Chelsea outside ENICs influence.

I wonder how people would be reacting to a takeover if we had qualified for the CL over the past 3 seasons particular when there is a case to say that ENICs ability to directly impact those events was limited.

I don't think we would be in any different place if we'd qualified for the CL 3 times instead of 1.

We will always be the 6th biggest club until we pay wages comparable to the 3rd or 4th biggest clubs. And (under FFP) only the stadium can facilitate that.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

I don't think we would be in any different place if we'd qualified for the CL 3 times instead of 1.

We will always be the 6th biggest club until we pay wages comparable to the 3rd or 4th biggest clubs. And (under FFP) only the stadium can facilitate that.

While your sentiment is right, I disagree that those extra qualifications couldn't have made a difference.....

Qualifying for the CL on the 1st occasion could well have resulted in us becoming regulars.... Arsenal were about to move to a new stadium where the extra revenue from the CL games was very much required. Had we replaced them in the top 4 that season, we may well have stayed there (especially as we then probably would've retained the hube of our team (Carrick) for the following season.... Replacing him was almost impossible as he was so hugely involved in everything we did as a team (and yes I am still bitter that we didn't get to see Carrick and Berba in the same team!).

It's possible that CL qualification the time we finished 4th and were undone by Chelsea stinking their way to a CL win would also have allowed us to kick on.... We may have been able to keep Modric for example and could've then picked up the following season where we left off instead of having to try to replace the hub of our team (again!)

While we are the 6th biggest club currently, qualifying for the CL once and then repeating it again could well have caused a snowball effect.... more gate revenue, more TV revenue, more exposure, more merchandising and sponsorship revenue in turn leading to a bigger budget for transfers and wages... Redknapp retained and AVB not brought in (as it would've been nigh impossible for Levy to sack Redknapp had he actually taken us to the CL - irrespective of their relationship). Perhaps this would've resulted in much better quality signings who were more suited to our team/the Premier League.

You also have to consider the fact that those extra occasions in CL (even in isolation) could perhaps have helped to attract the sponsorship money for our new stadium?

The gods have certainly conspired against us over the years.... Firstly with the virus on the last day of the season as the PL bigwigs were being entertained at the last game at Highbury making (an of course completely independent) decision that our match had to go ahead at 3pm. Then by Oil Money FC appearing just as we became consistently the 4th best team not including them, then by Capello unexpectedly quitting as we were in 3rd place and cruising to CL qualification, with the press then being all over "Harry for England" him taking his eye off the ball as a result and throwing away our 3rd place finish.... Not to mention perhaps the worst goalkeeping performance I have ever seen on the last day of the season with West Brom's (late replacement) keeper practically throwing 3 in his own goal to give Arsenal their 3-2 win keeping them above us. All rounded off nicely by Chelsea probably being the luckiest Champions League winning team ever, scraping through their group, being outplayed in the qtr final and battered in the semi and final but somehow winning the trophy.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

While your sentiment is right, I disagree that those extra qualifications couldn't have made a difference.....

Qualifying for the CL on the 1st occasion could well have resulted in us becoming regulars.... Arsenal were about to move to a new stadium where the extra revenue from the CL games was very much required. Had we replaced them in the top 4 that season, we may well have stayed there (especially as we then probably would've retained the hube of our team (Carrick) for the following season.... Replacing him was almost impossible as he was so hugely involved in everything we did as a team (and yes I am still bitter that we didn't get to see Carrick and Berba in the same team!).

It's possible that CL qualification the time we finished 4th and were undone by Chelsea stinking their way to a CL win would also have allowed us to kick on.... We may have been able to keep Modric for example and could've then picked up the following season where we left off instead of having to try to replace the hub of our team (again!)

While we are the 6th biggest club currently, qualifying for the CL once and then repeating it again could well have caused a snowball effect.... more gate revenue, more TV revenue, more exposure, more merchandising and sponsorship revenue in turn leading to a bigger budget for transfers and wages... Redknapp retained and AVB not brought in (as it would've been nigh impossible for Levy to sack Redknapp had he actually taken us to the CL - irrespective of their relationship). Perhaps this would've resulted in much better quality signings who were more suited to our team/the Premier League.

You also have to consider the fact that those extra occasions in CL (even in isolation) could perhaps have helped to attract the sponsorship money for our new stadium?

The gods have certainly conspired against us over the years.... Firstly with the virus on the last day of the season as the PL bigwigs were being entertained at the last game at Highbury making (an of course completely independent) decision that our match had to go ahead at 3pm. Then by Oil Money FC appearing just as we became consistently the 4th best team not including them, then by Capello unexpectedly quitting as we were in 3rd place and cruising to CL qualification, with the press then being all over "Harry for England" him taking his eye off the ball as a result and throwing away our 3rd place finish.... Not to mention perhaps the worst goalkeeping performance I have ever seen on the last day of the season with West Brom's (late replacement) keeper practically throwing 3 in his own goal to give Arsenal their 3-2 win keeping them above us. All rounded off nicely by Chelsea probably being the luckiest Champions League winning team ever, scraping through their group, being outplayed in the qtr final and battered in the semi and final but somehow winning the trophy.

That post made me sad.

 

[Bullet]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

While your sentiment is right, I disagree that those extra qualifications couldn't have made a difference.....

Qualifying for the CL on the 1st occasion could well have resulted in us becoming regulars.... Arsenal were about to move to a new stadium where the extra revenue from the CL games was very much required. Had we replaced them in the top 4 that season, we may well have stayed there (especially as we then probably would've retained the hube of our team (Carrick) for the following season.... Replacing him was almost impossible as he was so hugely involved in everything we did as a team (and yes I am still bitter that we didn't get to see Carrick and Berba in the same team!).

It's possible that CL qualification the time we finished 4th and were undone by Chelsea stinking their way to a CL win would also have allowed us to kick on.... We may have been able to keep Modric for example and could've then picked up the following season where we left off instead of having to try to replace the hub of our team (again!)

While we are the 6th biggest club currently, qualifying for the CL once and then repeating it again could well have caused a snowball effect.... more gate revenue, more TV revenue, more exposure, more merchandising and sponsorship revenue in turn leading to a bigger budget for transfers and wages... Redknapp retained and AVB not brought in (as it would've been nigh impossible for Levy to sack Redknapp had he actually taken us to the CL - irrespective of their relationship). Perhaps this would've resulted in much better quality signings who were more suited to our team/the Premier League.

You also have to consider the fact that those extra occasions in CL (even in isolation) could perhaps have helped to attract the sponsorship money for our new stadium?

The gods have certainly conspired against us over the years.... Firstly with the virus on the last day of the season as the PL bigwigs were being entertained at the last game at Highbury making (an of course completely independent) decision that our match had to go ahead at 3pm. Then by Oil Money FC appearing just as we became consistently the 4th best team not including them, then by Capello unexpectedly quitting as we were in 3rd place and cruising to CL qualification, with the press then being all over "Harry for England" him taking his eye off the ball as a result and throwing away our 3rd place finish.... Not to mention perhaps the worst goalkeeping performance I have ever seen on the last day of the season with West Brom's (late replacement) keeper practically throwing 3 in his own goal to give Arsenal their 3-2 win keeping them above us. All rounded off nicely by Chelsea probably being the luckiest Champions League winning team ever, scraping through their group, being outplayed in the qtr final and battered in the semi and final but somehow winning the trophy.

Epic post, a brilliant summation of our recent woes.

This is part of the reason I keep hanging on and supporting... surely at some point our fortune will change and it will be us luckily winning trophies and other teams catching a virus etc.

'Regression to the mean' and all that Scaramangajazz.

Or maybe we are "the mean" and it is Leeds etc. who are waiting to regress upwards to the mean.

Let's hope that one day in the next 300 years we win the flippin league. It won't pay for 30 odd years of hurt, but it will be a start.

 

[NWND]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

Epic post, a brilliant summation of our recent woes.

This is part of the reason I keep hanging on and supporting... surely at some point our fortune will change and it will be us luckily winning trophies and other teams catching a virus etc.

'Regression to the mean' and all that Scaramangajazz.

Or maybe we are "the mean" and it is Leeds etc. who are waiting to regress upwards to the mean.

Let's hope that one day in the next 300 years we win the flippin league. It won't pay for 30 odd years of hurt, but it will be a start.

Hahaha. We have regressed to the mean, though. Despite the above, the dissapointments actually point to ENIC making us punch above our weight as our 'mean' as GB says based on transfer spending and wages is 6th/7th and consistently over the last few seasons we've been 4th-5th and only fallen below that a couple of times.

Our clever scouting and transfer strategy in identifying players like Modric & Bale and building a team around them as they developed into world-class players and supplementing them with key acquisitions meant we ended up with a world-class team not paying oil-money wages.

Unfortunately that wasn't going to last for ever and while the CL qualifications would have made a big difference like Finney says, we have ultimately regressed to our mean of 6th-7th place based on our spending potential.

 

[jts1882]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

.... Firstly with the virus on the last day of the season as the PL bigwigs were being entertained at the last game at Highbury making (an of course completely independent) decision that our match had to go ahead at 3pm. ...

There was more bad luck in that one. The game could have been postponed if the game could have been played before the FIFA deadline for the world cup. It couldn't be replayed that week because West Ham were in the FA Cup final. So the bad luck included the virus, it being a world cup year, West Ham being in a final, and Scudamore being more interested in the entertainment at Highbury than his job. It took all four.

P.S. I don't think this would have made a difference with Carrick. The powers that be didn't want him. Isn't the story that Carrick was not offered a new contract in the spring because Comolli had identified an upgrade who was duly bought.

 

[nerdved]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

P.S. I don't think this would have made a difference with Carrick. The powers that be didn't want him. Isn't the story that Carrick was not offered a new contract in the spring because Comolli had identified an upgrade who was duly bought.

Zokora?

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

Mendes or was he before Carrick? Can't remember back that far any more. :-k

 

[jts1882]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

The story is that Comolli had identified Zokora as the upgrade so Carrick wasn't offered a new contract or not on the terms he wanted. Like all these stories it could be nonsense.

We had Mendes and Carrick at the same time. Carrick started most games in 2005-06, with Mendes only playing a few times, hence his move. If Mendes had stayed, perhaps he and Zokora would have worked.

 

[LesMedley]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

There was more bad luck in that one. The game could have been postponed if the game could have been played before the FIFA deadline for the world cup. It couldn't be replayed that week because West Ham were in the FA Cup final. So the bad luck included the virus, it being a world cup year, West Ham being in a final, and Scudamore being more interested in the entertainment at Highbury than his job. It took all four.

P.S. I don't think this would have made a difference with Carrick. The powers that be didn't want him. Isn't the story that Carrick was not offered a new contract in the spring because Comolli had identified an upgrade who was duly bought.

With regard to Carrick, this is not the way I remember it all. Carrick made it clear he wanted CL football. I can recall discussing this with my nephew before the end of the season and predicting he would go if we didn't achieve CL football. Tottenham didn't achieve CL football, so Carrick wanted out. Tottenham said no. Manchester United bid. Tottenham rejected the bid. United then offered somewhere in the region of £17 -18 million, for a player Tottenham had paid about £2 million for a couple of years previously. Carrick continued to say he wanted out and didn't want to play for Tottenham. So the bid was accepted. Zokora came to the fore in the World Cup, having been relatively unknown before. Commoli went after him and got him.

 

[harr1984]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

With regard to Carrick, this is not the way I remember it all. Carrick made it clear he wanted CL football. I can recall discussing this with my nephew before the end of the season and predicting he would go if we didn't achieve CL football. Tottenham didn't achieve CL football, so Carrick wanted out. Tottenham said no. Manchester United bid. Tottenham rejected the bid. United then offered somewhere in the region of £17 -18 million, for a player Tottenham had paid about £2 million for a couple of years previously. Carrick continued to say he wanted out and didn't want to play for Tottenham. So the bid was accepted. Zokora came to the fore in the World Cup, having been relatively unknown before. Commoli went after him and got him.

Yes that's more or less how I remember it- certainly Man U bid and we said no, Carroll made it clear he wanted to go...


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Andyandy]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

With regard to Carrick, this is not the way I remember it all. Carrick made it clear he wanted CL football. I can recall discussing this with my nephew before the end of the season and predicting he would go if we didn't achieve CL football. Tottenham didn't achieve CL football, so Carrick wanted out. Tottenham said no. Manchester United bid. Tottenham rejected the bid. United then offered somewhere in the region of £17 -18 million, for a player Tottenham had paid about £2 million for a couple of years previously. Carrick continued to say he wanted out and didn't want to play for Tottenham. So the bid was accepted. Zokora came to the fore in the World Cup, having been relatively unknown before. Commoli went after him and got him.

I thought that Zakora was signed before the World Cup but that's only from memory. Looked average too.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

I thought that Zakora was signed before the World Cup but that's only from memory. Looked average too.

Zokora wasn't signed to replace Carrick though. We would have been tracking him long before. Seeing the two of them together would have been interesting. IIRC Comolli messed it up with Carrick's contract.

 

[Shelfie]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

Cheers. One last question and then I'll leave you in peace. Given that the league table usually mirrors total wage bills, would you want us to keep track with the salaries paid by the 4th or 5th placed club?

I would hope that in the medium term (5-10 years), we can raise our wage bill to the 4th/5th place. Then in the long term (15/20 years) to the 2nd/3rd place. However this is likely to be a forlorn hope unless we get in top owners like City and Chelsea have. Someone like Cain Hoy I would expect to do better than ENIC but the gap between us and the Big 5 is huge and will take a lot of closing.

For me someone like Cain Hoy will improve on ENIC overall and so I welcome them with open arms, (may be false hope of course) but they're not likely to get us massive improvement in a few years.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

Epic post, a brilliant summation of our recent woes.

This is part of the reason I keep hanging on and supporting... surely at some point our fortune will change and it will be us luckily winning trophies and other teams catching a virus etc.

'Regression to the mean' and all that Scaramangajazz.

Or maybe we are "the mean" and it is Leeds etc. who are waiting to regress upwards to the mean.

Let's hope that one day in the next 300 years we win the flippin league. It won't pay for 30 odd years of hurt, but it will be a start.

Sounds more like gambler's fallacy than regression toward the mean...

We're surely overdue another FA Cup trophy though...

 

[supie]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

While your sentiment is right, I disagree that those extra qualifications couldn't have made a difference.....

Qualifying for the CL on the 1st occasion could well have resulted in us becoming regulars.... Arsenal were about to move to a new stadium where the extra revenue from the CL games was very much required. Had we replaced them in the top 4 that season, we may well have stayed there (especially as we then probably would've retained the hube of our team (Carrick) for the following season.... Replacing him was almost impossible as he was so hugely involved in everything we did as a team (and yes I am still bitter that we didn't get to see Carrick and Berba in the same team!).

It's possible that CL qualification the time we finished 4th and were undone by Chelsea stinking their way to a CL win would also have allowed us to kick on.... We may have been able to keep Modric for example and could've then picked up the following season where we left off instead of having to try to replace the hub of our team (again!)

While we are the 6th biggest club currently, qualifying for the CL once and then repeating it again could well have caused a snowball effect.... more gate revenue, more TV revenue, more exposure, more merchandising and sponsorship revenue in turn leading to a bigger budget for transfers and wages... Redknapp retained and AVB not brought in (as it would've been nigh impossible for Levy to sack Redknapp had he actually taken us to the CL - irrespective of their relationship). Perhaps this would've resulted in much better quality signings who were more suited to our team/the Premier League.

You also have to consider the fact that those extra occasions in CL (even in isolation) could perhaps have helped to attract the sponsorship money for our new stadium?

The gods have certainly conspired against us over the years.... Firstly with the virus on the last day of the season as the PL bigwigs were being entertained at the last game at Highbury making (an of course completely independent) decision that our match had to go ahead at 3pm. Then by Oil Money FC appearing just as we became consistently the 4th best team not including them, then by Capello unexpectedly quitting as we were in 3rd place and cruising to CL qualification, with the press then being all over "Harry for England" him taking his eye off the ball as a result and throwing away our 3rd place finish.... Not to mention perhaps the worst goalkeeping performance I have ever seen on the last day of the season with West Brom's (late replacement) keeper practically throwing 3 in his own goal to give Arsenal their 3-2 win keeping them above us. All rounded off nicely by Chelsea probably being the luckiest Champions League winning team ever, scraping through their group, being outplayed in the qtr final and battered in the semi and final but somehow winning the trophy.

You have built very nicely on my original summary. The other item that I can't help but reflect on is the DOF experience under ENIC. In a nutshell and with the exception of a honeymoon period with each DOF, fundamentally the model has tanked.

What I am about to say is not meant to sound condescending or disrespectful; however invariably it probably is....; however if Harry had even half of the intellect of say a Ferguson, or a Mourinho or an Ancelotti I truly believe ENIC (Levy) and Harry together could have created something special. However alas, Harry was Harry and the rest is history.

Longer term I think a sporting director who negotiates deals but who is not the person the Chairman exclusively listens to on transfers is the model for this club. It would seem that the Baldini situation has evolved into this as opposed to starting out that way, and, one could argue it has only ended up this way because of how he had such a major hand in p###ing £60-70m down the toilet last summer.

In summary, a combination of misfortune and the gods not favouring us, plus poor management around the art of squad management and selection are IMHO what has brought us to where we are today, which on the face of it, is a regression from where we were say 4 seasons ago.

Can ENIC get us back on the wagon, or is it time for someone else to give it a go?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Cain Hoy takeover

From Greg Stobart on goal.com. No quotes so to be taken with a pinch of salt:

Cain Hoy ready to pull plug on Tottenham takeover bid

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2014/09/25/5131730/-?