AVB's one upfront system doomed for failure at WHL

[Golfball]

Didn't need much changing?

Our best player (possibly two) wanted to leave, our best central defender for the past ten years retired and we had several players who were clearly stop-gaps who ran out of contract and required replacing and you are trying to tell me we didn't need an overhaul?


Utter madness. We're currently 5th. Only ten games into the season. With a number of good player out injured. We're still within distance of first and we're already writing the manager off? People appear to have unrealistic expectations after losing players of the calibre of Modric, Vdv and King..

Seriously, I know you cant stand people criticising AVB but your argument is pretty poor. No one is writing AVB off, we are just talking about what has happened so far.

Compare the squad and league position when Jol took over - we started performing instantly for Jol (even if results were shaky the first 4 games), compare the squad and league position when Harry took over - we started performing instantly, then look at the squad and league position when AVB took over - performances have been dire, but luckily results are ok so its something to build on.

Our squad is excellent, even with the loss of Modric. AVB willingly sold VDV, VDV said he was willing to stay but was pleased to return to his old club (plus I dont think he would thrive in this team). King - well yeah brilliant player but its not as if we havent had to do without him for long spells in the last 4 years !!

So of course we didnt need overhauling, and if we did - why didnt AVB do it ? Vert and Dembele are the only signings who will probably play in our best team, the rest were there last season. Simply compare this team to Harry in his first full season and I know which team I'd take... and this isnt another post to big up Harry, it is just an example of a team playing well without a superstar in every position.

So, stop making it sound like we have a brick squad and we cant expect a good performance at home. Arsenal got 3rd after losing their best 10000 players. Man Utd won the league after losing Ronaldo. With Arsenal again losing their 2 best players, we have every right to think a challenge for 4th spot is a realistic expectation - all I know is that so far we aren't playing like a team that is in contention for that spot.

There are several threads on this forum talking about systems not working, performances being poor etc etc - so my comment in the previous post was related to that, saying we shouldnt have those threads it should be talking about how to close the gap to the top 3... but sadly the tone of the posts are about how bad we are going to be rather than how good. With the squad we have that shouldnt be the case, no one is writing off AVB and results have brought him some time, but something is definitely wrong when you sit in 5th place and you get those sort of threads. In a way it is pleasing to see we no longer accept brick performances but good results, Jol and Harry did well to lift the expectations and show us what good really is.

 

[diego_maradona]

"But when the opponent is so superior, a change to the system is not going to change anything."

Just read the Guardian report of the game. Did AVB really say this? I don't get it. I am actually worried by this statement

 

[Golfball]

"But when the opponent is so superior, a change to the system is not going to change anything."

Just read the Guardian report of the game. Did AVB really say this? I don't get it. I am actually worried by this statement

Is that a joke ?

Imagine if Harry had said that !!

Im assuming that is some sort of mis quote or meant in a different context. But just in case it is not... is AVB saying Wigan were so superior and he couldnt think of what to change to stop them ? Its bad enough Wigan were superior on our own ground, even worse the manager just accepted there is nothing he could have done. Pundits who talk about AVB keep saying at Chelsea he looked like he needed help... its sort of the same with us. Decent guy, enthusiastic about the game and the way to play it, but possibly too inexperienced for a top club who need to be the best most of the time.

 

[diego_maradona]

Is that a joke ?

Imagine if Harry had said that !!

Im assuming that is some sort of mis quote or meant in a different context. But just in case it is not... is AVB saying Wigan were so superior and he couldnt think of what to change to stop them ? Its bad enough Wigan were superior on our own ground, even worse the manager just accepted there is nothing he could have done. Pundits who talk about AVB keep saying at Chelsea he looked like he needed help... its sort of the same with us. Decent guy, enthusiastic about the game and the way to play it, but possibly too inexperienced for a top club who need to be the best most of the time.

I really enjoy reading just how meticulous he is about each game and his enthusiasm as a real student of the game. I want him to succeed so much, but there are things he says or actions which make it difficult to justify why he would do such a thing. I'm sure he meant something else... But then he didn't change it so maybe not. C'mon AVB, get it together man

 

[indianspur]

"But when the opponent is so superior, a change to the system is not going to change anything."

Just read the Guardian report of the game. Did AVB really say this? I don't get it. I am actually worried by this statement

i fear AVB will not change his system and principles...no matter what

 

[diego_maradona]

i fear AVB will not change his system and principles...no matter what

I don't think it's bad to have your beliefs, but the reasoning he gave was odd. I could stomach it if he said he thought the formations should have worked and he felt it better tactically to keep it but with different peronnel.

At least with Harry it felt like you could see the cogs turning I his head and you understood why he was doing it.

 

[Mulletperm]

"But when the opponent is so superior, a change to the system is not going to change anything."

Just read the Guardian report of the game. Did AVB really say this? I don't get it. I am actually worried by this statement

brick that's worrying.

 

[Pandy]

brick that's worrying.

He is suggesting there was little he could have done in terms of tactics to change the result. That is, our players demonstrated so little desire to win that irrespective of the system we were using, Wigan were always going to be the superior side on the day. Of course, motivating the side is within his remit as well, I just think this comment has been taken out of context and AVB was probably saying that the primary issue was not tactical, not that tactics weren't an issue entirely.

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

I don't think it's bad to have your beliefs, but the reasoning he gave was odd. I could stomach it if he said he thought the formations should have worked and he felt it better tactically to keep it but with different peronnel.

At least with Harry it felt like you could see the cogs turning I his head and you understood why he was doing it.

Are you sure about that? I remember lots of games where redknapp was criticised for poor substitutions eg the villa game last season or for not using the squad players such as krankie or defoe effectively and for having his favourites. I think a lot of people in this thread are suffering selective nostalgia!

 

[braineclipse]

You're right Diego:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/nov/03/tottenham-hotspur-wigan-athletic-premier-league

"But when the opponent is so superior, a change to the system is not going to change anything."

I don't find that comment worrying at all though, I find it quite positive.

I have raised what I think is a big part of the issue earlier this season and I still think it is, our attitude and mentality coming into these games. So often for smaller teams away from home it's a question of holding on for dear life in the first 15-20 minutes as the home team piles on the pressure. Saudi Sportswashing Machine had to hold on a lot last night, especially in the opening 15 minutes. Often after that the games even out a bit, that's natural. We on the other hand don't make opponents hang on, we pass the ball around without purpose and there isn't enough movement off the ball to really cause problems from the kick off. We showed again against Wigan after their goal that we can play, we put them under pressure and I thought we looked threatening. The problem isn't what happened in that half an hour after the goal and the tactical choices being made, nor is it the formation from the start. The problem is our lack of desire and purpose from the start, that puts us in those difficult positions where we have to turn the game around or where we have to start fresh at half time from 0-0 way too often.

I thought this improved last season with Parker who reportedly has a great attitude and is quite inspirational in the dressing room. I'm not sure if his return will help alleviate this problem this season, but we sure need something. Someone to remind the players that even though we're at home against a bottom half side if we drop off 10% in our efforts and performance they will be good enough to make it a close game and fudging fire the team up.

It's not a new issue for Spurs at all and it's not an issue only we struggle with. I just hope AVB can do something about it.

 

[Spursalot]

Seriously, I know you cant stand people criticising AVB but your argument is pretty poor. No one is writing AVB off, we are just talking about what has happened so far.

Compare the squad and league position when Jol took over - we started performing instantly for Jol (even if results were shaky the first 4 games), compare the squad and league position when Harry took over - we started performing instantly, then look at the squad and league position when AVB took over - performances have been dire, but luckily results are ok so its something to build on.

Our squad is excellent, even with the loss of Modric. AVB willingly sold VDV, VDV said he was willing to stay but was pleased to return to his old club (plus I dont think he would thrive in this team). King - well yeah brilliant player but its not as if we havent had to do without him for long spells in the last 4 years !!

So of course we didnt need overhauling, and if we did - why didnt AVB do it ? Vert and Dembele are the only signings who will probably play in our best team, the rest were there last season. Simply compare this team to Harry in his first full season and I know which team I'd take... and this isnt another post to big up Harry, it is just an example of a team playing well without a superstar in every position.

So, stop making it sound like we have a brick squad and we cant expect a good performance at home. Arsenal got 3rd after losing their best 10000 players. Man Utd won the league after losing Ronaldo. With Arsenal again losing their 2 best players, we have every right to think a challenge for 4th spot is a realistic expectation - all I know is that so far we aren't playing like a team that is in contention for that spot.

There are several threads on this forum talking about systems not working, performances being poor etc etc - so my comment in the previous post was related to that, saying we shouldnt have those threads it should be talking about how to close the gap to the top 3... but sadly the tone of the posts are about how bad we are going to be rather than how good. With the squad we have that shouldnt be the case, no one is writing off AVB and results have brought him some time, but something is definitely wrong when you sit in 5th place and you get those sort of threads. In a way it is pleasing to see we no longer accept brick performances but good results, Jol and Harry did well to lift the expectations and show us what good really is.

I don't mind people criticising the manager when it is valid. Imo it is far too soon to judge him considering the results we have been achieving. With the players that have been available, and that he is a new manager.

I don't think we have a brick squad, and oh wait, we're fifth in the league on equal points with fourth, exactly where a not brick squad could currently be. You claim we should be challenging for fourth? We currently are, so why are you bitching about it?

I don't particularly care how he compares to our previous managers, i'm going to continue to judge him as a manager in his own right, and i'm probably going to give him the benefit of the doubt until we've at least played a decent number of games, half a season or so. Just as i would do for any new manager.

The system not working? Very strange how the system has worked every time Dembele has started, yet is at fault for every bad result we have had. Damn that precarious system!

 

[DHSF]

I really enjoy reading just how meticulous he is about each game and his enthusiasm as a real student of the game. I want him to succeed so much, but there are things he says or actions which make it difficult to justify why he would do such a thing. I'm sure he meant something else... But then he didn't change it so maybe not. C'mon AVB, get it together man

You know sometimes football really is simple. I really think AVB complicates the game and is so precise that its actually counter productive. Players want to also enjoy their football rather than being so regimented. Theyre not in the armed forces theyre footballers who want to go out and play football and win. Being meticulous is fine but it can there is a thin line between being meticulous and overcomplicating the game and tactics.

I bet we would have beaten wigan had he just told those players to go out and play their natural game rather than running at a 36 degree angle so an overlapping right back can go on the outside at a 46 degree angle.

 

[braineclipse]

You know sometimes football really is simple. I really think AVB complicates the game and is so precise that its actually counter productive. Players want to also enjoy their football rather than being so regimented. Theyre not in the armed forces theyre footballers who want to go out and play football and win. Being meticulous is fine but it can there is a thin line between being meticulous and overcomplicating the game and tactics.

I bet we would have beaten wigan had he just told those players to go out and play their natural game rather than running at a 36 degree angle so an overlapping right back can go on the outside at a 46 degree angle.

You mean like when we beat Norwich at home under Harry?

It is way too early to start passing judgement on how well AVB is doing. One of the guys on the fighting **** podcast has said a couple of times that anything in the first 6 months is just a bonus. I quite like that approach, let the man work and let's see what happens. I don't think the problem against Wigan were down to tactics and instructions about how to play as I said above.

 

[Jordinho]

You mean like when we beat Norwich at home under Harry?

It is way too early to start passing judgement on how well AVB is doing. One of the guys on the fighting **** podcast has said a couple of times that anything in the first 6 months is just a bonus. I quite like that approach, let the man work and let's see what happens. I don't think the problem against Wigan were down to tactics and instructions about how to play as I said above.

He should have a much clearer picture of the quality of the players and what is needed going forward after these first few months. Like Frank Arnesen said: "It's when things aren't going well you learn the most about a player".

 

[DHSF]

You mean like when we beat Norwich at home under Harry?

It is way too early to start passing judgement on how well AVB is doing. One of the guys on the fighting **** podcast has said a couple of times that anything in the first 6 months is just a bonus. I quite like that approach, let the man work and let's see what happens. I don't think the problem against Wigan were down to tactics and instructions about how to play as I said above.

Im not talking about last season im looking at this season discretely. Im not comparing AVB with Harry anymore because the past is the past. You pick on Norwich game but its funny how people forget the first half and only focus on the second half of that season. Actually you forget the first two and a bit years.

We have had this discussion before about how players take on instructions etc and whether they are "too dumb" and in some cases they can be or rather they can be naive. I sometimes think football is made more complicated by some and AVB strikes me as one of those people - thats not to say it will never ever work but its just so so specific i.e. specific players, specific tactics, specific runs and passes - it becomes regimental rather than 'fun'.

Not many people on here are passing judgement on whether AVB will or will not be a success but the majority are saying that he needs to change certain things i.e. at home as our home form is fudgein turgid and woeful. We come back to the specificity of his tactics and actually whether he is a one trick pony in terms of tactics - which Harry was accused of.

 

[mattls]

You mean like when we beat Norwich at home under Harry?

It is way too early to start passing judgement on how well AVB is doing. One of the guys on the fighting **** podcast has said a couple of times that anything in the first 6 months is just a bonus. I quite like that approach, let the man work and let's see what happens. I don't think the problem against Wigan were down to tactics and instructions about how to play as I said above.

The problem i have though Brian is that AVB came in saying that he felt we should be pushing for the title every year so he came in implying that a top 4 position or more was achievable straight away so what you're saying is he should have reigned in some that over enthusiasm until he'd actually evaluated what he was working with or what harry left him? Because in football these days a manager can be out of club in 6 months if things dont work out so i think that statement about 'anything in the first 6 months is a bonus' is a bit poor.

When AVB had his amazing season at Porto he played Falcao and Haulk upfront and they both combined scored over 90 goals in that season. It was almost a bit of a freak season so what baffles me is why he doesnt at least try playing Ade and defoe upfront at least at home at WHL, two guys who know where the net is and see what happens. I'm not saying completely drop the formation all together but at least be more flexible.

 

[ArcspacE]

The problem i have though Brian

:lol:

 

[braineclipse]

Im not talking about last season im looking at this season discretely. Im not comparing AVB with Harry anymore because the past is the past. You pick on Norwich game but its funny how people forget the first half and only focus on the second half of that season. Actually you forget the first two and a bit years.

We have had this discussion before about how players take on instructions etc and whether they are "too dumb" and in some cases they can be or rather they can be naive. I sometimes think football is made more complicated by some and AVB strikes me as one of those people - thats not to say it will never ever work but its just so so specific i.e. specific players, specific tactics, specific runs and passes - it becomes regimental rather than 'fun'.

Not many people on here are passing judgement on whether AVB will or will not be a success but the majority are saying that he needs to change certain things i.e. at home as our home form is fudgein turgid and woeful. We come back to the specificity of his tactics and actually whether he is a one trick pony in terms of tactics - which Harry was accused of.

Well, you have to compare AVB to something don't you? And the people criticizing AVB generally bring up Redknapp at some point or another. And you do as well later in your post.

I'm not forgetting the first half of last season or the two and a half seasons preceding that. That's part of the point. Passing judgement on Redknapp based only on a small run of games wouldn't make any sense, just as it doesn't make any sense to pass judgement on AVB after only a small number of games.

The problem i have though Brian is that AVB came in saying that he felt we should be pushing for the title every year so he came in implying that a top 4 position or more was achievable straight away so what you're saying is he should have reigned in some that over enthusiasm until he'd actually evaluated what he was working with or what harry left him? Because in football these days a manager can be out of club in 6 months if things dont work out so i think that statement about 'anything in the first 6 months is a bonus' is a bit poor.

When AVB had his amazing season at Porto he played Falcao and Haulk upfront and they both combined scored over 90 goals in that season. It was almost a bit of a freak season so what baffles me is why he doesnt at least try playing Ade and defoe upfront at least at home at WHL, two guys who know where the net is and see what happens. I'm not saying completely drop the formation all together but at least be more flexible.

Would people have been happy with the home performances in general and the 1-0 loss against Wigan in specific if AVB had set different targets before the season started? My guess on this would be no, and my guess would be that people would call him out on setting his aim too low (perhaps with a reference to that quote and also there would be questions asked about why we brought in someone with such low ambitions.

Back to formation stuff... He has had Ade and Defoe available and fit for a very small number of games, what he will and won't try if things continue to not work I suppose we'll see. I think he will be at least a bit stubborn and stick with the system he thinks is better for the club in the long run, but that's just my guess. Way too soon to start calling him out on not trying things out though, he subbed Defoe for Ade against Wigan and we played quite well for the rest of the game from what I was watching.

 

[indianspur]

You know sometimes football really is simple. I really think AVB complicates the game and is so precise that its actually counter productive. Players want to also enjoy their football rather than being so regimented. Theyre not in the armed forces theyre footballers who want to go out and play football and win. Being meticulous is fine but it can there is a thin line between being meticulous and overcomplicating the game and tactics.

I bet we would have beaten wigan had he just told those players to go out and play their natural game rather than running at a 36 degree angle so an overlapping right back can go on the outside at a 46 degree angle.

=D>

 

[DHSF]

Well, you have to compare AVB to something don't you? And the people criticizing AVB generally bring up Redknapp at some point or another. And you do as well later in your post.

I'm not forgetting the first half of last season or the two and a half seasons preceding that. That's part of the point. Passing judgement on Redknapp based only on a small run of games wouldn't make any sense, just as it doesn't make any sense to pass judgement on AVB after only a small number of games.

.

Youre correct and I only brought Harry because you did but getting back to AVB you are also right we cant judge him but we can sure criticise him and his tactics thus far. Of course if in the next ten games he still doesnt change his ways at home specifically then where do we go from there? Why would he change his ways after 20 games if he doesnt change it after ten? Its WHL thats the main issue here - we were brilliant at home in the past (with the odd sprinkling of bad performances) but so far after what - five games? we have been utter brick. I do think AVB will loosen the rope a bit and let the players play with the swagger they have and the skill and natural ability they possess. I cant imagine someone could be so stubborn to realise that if it aint working you change it.

AVB worries about the opposition and defensive tactics first before thinking about how we should be scoring goals and beating the other lot. Going out with the aim of not losing (especially when youre at home to Wigan) is just small time. We should be going out there to win and score goals. Its what Manure do its what Chelscum are doing.