AVB versus Martinez

[Kingdawson]

So in response to your original post Jordinho =

Roberto Martinez AND ANDRE VILLAS BOAS inherited a settled and tight defensive unit.

 

[Jordinho]

You said there's a big difference between the teams inherited and then spoke about how AVB has changed the way we defend thus implying we didn't defend this well previously. In reality the stats show we've been defensively solid since 07/08 season and if anything there has been a slight decline (although of course very very slight) since AVB has taken over. I find it slightly strange that you would be talking about this season being that we're not even half way through yet...slightly premature to say the least.

Not really, just saying we're defending differently in terms of tactics. We've replaced Friedel and Gallas, just need to get players back from injury to replace Dawson and what has been Vertonghen in BAE's absence in order to fully reap the rewards. Everton have conceded 40 goals in the past two seasons and have tons of experience in their back 5. Unless Martinez ultimately wants to do it differently from Moyes they're set in that department for now, but what happens next season or the one after? Baines is 29, Heitinga 30, Hibbert 31, Jagielka 31, Alcaraz 31, Distin turns 36 in a week and Howard will be 35 by the time this season comes to an end.

 

[Jordinho]

So in response to your original post Jordinho =

Roberto Martinez AND ANDRE VILLAS BOAS inherited a settled and tight defensive unit.

AVB inherited players that didn't suit the way he wants to play. So far Martinez has stuck with what they know.

 

[Kingdawson]

AVB inherited players that didn't suit the way he wants to play. So far Martinez has stuck with what they know.

He might have stuck with the same personnel but they clearly play a different style than what Moyes did at Everton. I don't think he has stuck with "what they know", he's just manged to implement his style of football in a very quick manner and required little to no 'bedding in' period.

 

[Jordinho]

He might have stuck with the same personnel but they clearly play a different style than what Moyes did at Everton. I don't think he has stuck with "what they know", he's just manged to implement his style of football in a very quick manner and required little to no 'bedding in' period.

I think the difference in Everton now compared to last season is in the midfield and how they are asked to play.

 

[Kingdawson]

AVB to his credit has also managed to implement his style of football IN DEFENCE in a very quick manner. He now needs to do it in attack.

 

[SPURSphenomenon]

I think we will see the evolution in attack too, lets not ignore that he has had a load of issues to sort out whilst trying to get points:

- Loss of Bale (who whether he admits it or not, ran our show last year)
- Lamela, Paulinho, Soldado, Chadli... all have arrived with reputations and finding the blend along with what we already have is difficult
- The defensive side may actually be a bit easier as there was less change and players of this type are inclined to play the game in a more familiar way. (Attackers being measured on their creativity which is a very individual trait)

Coming back to the comparison of AVB and Martinez, as has been said already, I think its very early to judge, lets not forget his Wigan sides were extremely inconsistent (albeit different calibre of players). Credit to Martinex though, made the right moves in the transfer market, shame for Everton that they only own 2 of the 3.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Martinez has shown that it doesn't take over a season to get a side playing a different style of play despite some people protesting that it does. From day one you could see they started to dominate possession more. Does this make him a better manager than AVB? Of course not, it just means Martinez's teams are easier on the eye. They've only lost once all season, to Emirates Marketing Project away and everyone loses there.

I don't think you can begin to judge until the end of the season at the earliest as Martinez is only just getting his first chance at a proper big club whilst AVB has one season on him already. We should finish above them tbh, they're a good side and won't go away easily but we've got a bigger squad.

 

[Jurgen the German]

In the 2011/2012 season we conceded 41 goals under Redknapp. Under AVB we conceded 46 goals in the 2012/2013 season. In fact, in Redknapps 3 full seasons we conceded:

41 goals
46 goals
41 goals

Hell even in the 08/09 season where we started of turbo ****e...we conceded 45 goals.

Please please don't try to rewrite history and make it as if AVB inherited some turbo **** defence that conceded left, right and centre when in actual fact our defensive record was better prior to his arrival. It's annoying and simply incorrect.

+1

We had the best defensive record in the league for home games during his first season and a half.

 

[diego_maradona]

Martinez has shown that it doesn't take over a season to get a side playing a different style of play despite some people protesting that it does. From day one you could see they started to dominate possession more. Does this make him a better manager than AVB? Of course not, it just means Martinez's teams are easier on the eye. They've only lost once all season, to Emirates Marketing Project away and everyone loses there.

I don't think you can begin to judge until the end of the season at the earliest as Martinez is only just getting his first chance at a proper big club whilst AVB has one season on him already. We should finish above them tbh, they're a good side and won't go away easily but we've got a bigger squad.

I think our squad size has a big impact on whether we are settled and playing well. We have chopped and changed a lot, and I sincerely hope that the plan to keep the players fit and fresh comes to fruition as the season wears off.

AVB in matchday programme: "Time is probably the most precious commodity for our group at the moment as we seek to bed in new players"

he said that from day 1 this season, and he's bang on. That's why even meaningless games like Anzi could be a blessing for us. It's a competitive game and another chance for the lads to play together.

 

[SteveAWOL]

In the 2011/2012 season we conceded 41 goals under Redknapp. Under AVB we conceded 46 goals in the 2012/2013 season. In fact, in Redknapps 3 full seasons we conceded:

41 goals
46 goals
41 goals

Hell even in the 08/09 season where we started of turbo ****e...we conceded 45 goals.

Please please don't try to rewrite history and make it as if AVB inherited some turbo **** defence that conceded left, right and centre when in actual fact our defensive record was better prior to his arrival. It's annoying and simply incorrect.

Looking back over the past decade, Spurs have only kept fewer clean sheets than the 9 we managed last season on 3 occasions.

Although we only fired blanks on 4 occasions last season (Fulham, Wigan and Stoke at home plus QPR away) which is the best we've done in that time, largely thanks to the wonder strikes of a certain Galactico.

Season	Clean Sheets	Failed to Score	Goals For	Goals Against
2012/13	9	4	66	46
2011/12	14	6	66	41
2010/11	8	8	55	46
2009/10	13	9	67	41
2008/09	13	10	45	45
2007/08	9	5	66	61
2006/07	6	10	57	54
2005/06	13	8	53	38
2004/05	13	14	47	41
2003/04	8	16	47	57

 

[Kingdawson]

jeez are you guys watching sky sports? Martinez is a genius.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Sometimes certain tasks might not achieve specific physical data that rewards premium efficiency in terms of a physical performance.'

Lol is that an actual quote? He's an articulate guy and there's nothing wrong with that, but quotes like that are just blatant showing off.

 

[SUIYHA]

Martinez was my first choice to replace Harry. I was (and still am a little) terrified that he'll replace Wenger, as he's an outstanding manager. I'm yet to see any reason why people think he isn't A LOT better than AVB.

Let's put aside the fact that Martinez has never lost to AVB but beat us with Wigan at the Lane last season, because head-to-head can change quite quickly. Let's also ignore the fact that he has got a team who haven't finished less than 8 points behind us in any of the previous 4 seasons to be above us this time, because we're not even half way through the season and that could change too.

But what I cannot ignore is the fact that Martinez had Wigan, despite losing their star player every season and having no budget to replace him with, had Wigan playing better football than we do under AVB. We've been waiting for AVB's team to "click" all season, on yesterday's evidence then Everton have certainly "clicked" a lot more than we have. They played superb football, better than we've played in any game under AVB bar possibly Inter Milan at home last season.

Yes, he inherited some good players. But he's also brought in some very good ones too. AVB also inherited some very good players, he's also had a lot more money than Martinez to sign new ones. Yeah yeah, give them time they've come from abroad and all that, but it's not like AVB was forced to sign players from abroad, he could have looked for older, experienced Premier League pros like Barry. I would also say that Deulofeu looks to be a better player than any of those foreigners than we've brought in.

The other reason why I rate Martinez so much is because he is outstanding when it comes to the big games. He has tactically outwitted big name managers in high profile matches with very intelligent switches. In the 11-12 run-in alone, he won at Anfield and the Emirates, and also beat Ferguson's Man Utd at the "squeaky bum" end of the season. His switch to an unusual 3-4-3 formation that season was class, and in the FA Cup Final last season he pulled off what was probably the most unlikely cup final victory in 30 years.

Martinez has found the right balance for his squads between youth and experience. Between established Premier League players and foreigners needing a bit of time to adapt. They have a good balance of technical ability, pace, strength and maturity. His teams play attractive, attacking football. He has proven his ability to integrate new players quickly and effectively into his teams. He has proven his ability to overcome the loss of big name star players and keep getting results. He comes across as classy and extremely well respected by his peers and by opposition fans. I don't think I can say the same for AVB on any of those counts.

Think we really missed a trick with him. Think there's a good chance the scum will go for him when Wenger retires, if that's any time soon. If not, I can see him going to Chelsea when things inevitably go sour with Mourinho and Roman.

 

[billyiddo]

i think it's a bit of a stretch to say he had Wigan playing better football than we are currently - at times yes id agree but for large spells of the season not so much, obviously done well with the resources he had. i too wanted Martinez in when Redknapp was sacked and was impressed with what he done at Wigan and also the way he spoke about football in general and am happy to see him doing well at Everton and hope he continues to do so.

i remember the fountain of footballing knowledge that was TMK saying that Martinez would never manage a side to 6th in the Premier League, looks like he could prove him wrong with his first genuine opportunity. i wonder if his latest alt has changed tact on that one like he did re Ekotto once AVB froze him out and he could use it as a stick to beat him with :-k

 

[Briddo1882]

Dave Whelan spoke of Martinez in such revered tones I often thought he was either dillussional or he knew something we didn't know. Dave Whelan is talked about as a football man - he has played he understands the game. Bill Kenright knew RM was the right man for the job after 10 seconds of interviewing. He'd had a glowing report from DW and was very impressed with by RM, very quickly. Bill Kenright is again, another knowledgeable football man, a proper chairman.

Both of these men know what they are talking about and that FA Cup win for Wigan wasn't a fluke. I personally believe that RM is a fantastic manager and will succeed at Everton.

.....however, I also rate AVB and I think we are going to be very strong towards the back half of this season and next season we will be genuine title contenders

 

[Kingdawson]

i think it's a bit of a stretch to say he had Wigan playing better football than we are currently - at times yes id agree but for large spells of the season not so much, obviously done well with the resources he had. i too wanted Martinez in when Redknapp was sacked and was impressed with what he done at Wigan and also the way he spoke about football in general and am happy to see him doing well at Everton and hope he continues to do so.

i remember the fountain of footballing knowledge that was TMK saying that Martinez would never manage a side to 6th in the Premier League, looks like he could prove him wrong with his first genuine opportunity. i wonder if his latest alt has changed tact on that one like he did re Ekotto once AVB froze him out and he could use it as a stick to beat him with :-k

Billy did you catch Gary Neville's analysis of how Everton play on sky sports earlier?

 

[Jordinho]

Wigan won a total of 4 home games in the league last season, 5 in 2011/12 and 5 in 2010/11. Wigan were lucky beyond comprehension to have survived as long as they did. Regularly on the receiving end of 3 and 4 goal losses, not to mention the odd 5, 6 or 8. I have seen nothing to suggest Martinez is a top manager. The only thing you could say for certain is that he likes his teams to play nice football, even to the point where the results suffer.

 

[billyiddo]

Billy did you catch Gary Neville's analysis of how Everton play on sky sports earlier?

i didn't - i saw your comment earlier though, care to expand?

 

[Jordinho]

Dave Whelan spoke of Martinez in such revered tones I often thought he was either dillussional or he knew something we didn't know. Dave Whelan is talked about as a football man - he has played he understands the game. Bill Kenright knew RM was the right man for the job after 10 seconds of interviewing. He'd had a glowing report from DW and was very impressed with by RM, very quickly. Bill Kenright is again, another knowledgeable football man, a proper chairman.

Both of these men know what they are talking about and that FA Cup win for Wigan wasn't a fluke. I personally believe that RM is a fantastic manager and will succeed at Everton.

.....however, I also rate AVB and I think we are going to be very strong towards the back half of this season and next season we will be genuine title contenders

Whelan and Kenwright also know they can't compete with the top teams financially and are happy as long as they're punching their weight or thereabouts. Martinez was turned down for the Liverpool job, possibly because their owners wouldn't let him do everything his way.