AVB - I want him out now!

[kanoute16]

Fair dos, sorry, I get agitated by those comments sometimes and flare up! Yes, the 90s…I think some of the worst times were then, only surpassed by Terry Neil and what he left Burky to deal with, the ****ing scumbag (that and seeing WIllie ****ING Young in our shirt!)…I tend to make it over for a few away games every season and a few home ones…will be over in the New Year. Always prefer away days! Always have, since the early early days...

Where do you live? I'm not too far from Tottenham so get to pretty much all home games, do around 6-7 aways.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Don't let things like the fact that table is an absolute load of nonsense get in the way. It shows a non-existent league table in which Spurs are third. THIRD I say. We must be amazing.

I enjoyed reading Steff's post because it actually lists a lot of issues before providing silly commentary next to them. If you take away the daft sarcasm from the post it actually lists most of the legitimate points that posters have made in this thread.

The Superfan 5000 phalanx like to spin things, where as there is a realistic minority who base their argument on what they have witnessed on the field, rather than suspicious league tables encompassing results over two seasons. On one hand some people think our EL group was challenging, and the fact we have beaten teams from Moldova and Norway should be held up to highlight AVB's managerial prowess. Others think that with our resources we should be topping this group, and actually were we not it would be embarrassing.

I'd go so far as to say that the EL has been crucial for AVB because it has given us games against weak opposition in which we could actually score - we haven't looked good in the process - but we have managed to score goals. Without these games we'd have had a total of 6 goals from open play to celebrate all season, and even the 'we're on the right track' phalanx would be singing a different tune.

Its funny that Steff sees it appropriate to attack clairvoyance. I would have said that there is more merit in discussing where we might be in a couple of games time than using tables that don't exist to prove how great we are.

And no matter how anyone wants to dress it up we are 100% devoid of attacking philosophy. If we aren't can't someone please enlighten me as to how we go about scoring? To me it looks like we have no idea and rely on long shots and penalties. I have to agree its great to grind out one - nil wins, but not when they're by the virtue of penalty awards that are so soft 95% of posters in the match day thread actually said they felt embarrassed. Grinding out a win whereby you score a legitimate goal is one thing, not being able to break down Hull without the assistance of a compliant referee is quite another.

The penalties against Hull and Swansea were just shocking decisions.

But, time will tell and we'll see where this leads. By the criteria of not being able to predict or discuss forthcoming games were in a position where we have to first wait for the results otherwise were just playing at clairvoyance. So ill stop short of saying I think we'll lose the next two without scoring, and just say the next two games are going to be very tough, and it'll be interesting to see how this thread develops once they have been played.

=D>

I would like to see someone who disagrees with your stance actually address some of the points you made seriously without making pointless one liners, even if they don't agree with the post in general.

Talking of one liners. "Superfan 5000" made me laugh.

 

[milo]

=D>

I would like to see someone who disagrees with your stance actually address some of the points you made seriously without making pointless one liners, even if they don't agree with the post in general.

The problem is that there isn't anything to address. Armchair Expert dismisses any evidence that does support his view and doesn't offer any alternative evidence to support his opinion.

No one is arguing that we are the prettiest team in the league at the moment but the argument that we are going through a big transition seems to be a persuasive one to me and to bemoan us picking up point whilst we are going through that transition seems churlish.

I think that the time to judge the quality of the football is once the transition is complete. Obviously, you and others disagree but I am not sure this conversation can go anywhere when all you are offering to support your argument is ifs, buts and maybes.

 

[braineclipse]

=D>

I would like to see someone who disagrees with your stance actually address some of the points you made seriously without making pointless one liners, even if they don't agree with the post in general.

Talking of one liners. "Superfan 5000" made me laugh.

I agree with milo on this one.

But if you insist that this is a great post, would you mind typing out the main points being made that you would like people to seriously respond to?

I see "we are 100% devoid of attacking philosophy" as a point, one that has been discussed continuously in multiple threads.

What other points are there that are worthy of serious replies? Serious question, not having a go, I just see a lot of phalanx this, phalanx that and a couple of straw men.

 

[Pirate55]

I agree with milo on this one.

But if you insist that this is a great post, would you mind typing out the main points being made that you would like people to seriously respond to?

I see "we are 100% devoid of attacking philosophy" as a point, one that has been discussed continuously in multiple threads.

What other points are there that are worthy of serious replies? Serious question, not having a go, I just see a lot of phalanx this, phalanx that and a couple of straw men.

You seem to see straw men everywhere.

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

[braineclipse]

You seem to see straw men everywhere.

What exactly do you mean by this?

A straw man is when you (either on purpose or by accident) misrepresent the opposing argument and then attack that misrepresentation as if it was an opinion they actually hold, normally an easy target to argue against.

For example in AE's post I think saying that "some people think our EL group was challenging, and the fact we have beaten teams from Moldova and Norway should be held up to highlight AVB's managerial prowess" is a straw man. Unless I've missed something that's not a commonly held belief among those supporting AVB in this thread. Similarly I think saying "I would have said that there is more merit in discussing where we might be in a couple of games time than using tables that don't exist to prove how great we are." is a straw man as I don't see a lot of people saying that these table prove that we're great (or amazing as he, probably sarcastically, stated earlier in his post).

Of course I've missed quite a few pages in this thread (and have little interest in reading all of it) and if there are people here stating the opinions I've repeated here then those aren't straw man arguments and I probably owe AE an apology. Those opinions do seem strange though and I would be surprised if people on here actually hold those opinions.

 

[africanspurs]

A straw man is when you (either on purpose or by accident) misrepresent the opposing argument and then attack that misrepresentation as if it was an opinion they actually hold, normally an easy target to argue against.

nothing ****es me off more i dont think. made even worse when time passes and people bring it up and the ground is so murky by then people start to think it was what you said.

having said that sometimes i do do it to others intentionally....

 

[braineclipse]

nothing ****es me off more i dont think. made even worse when time passes and people bring it up and the ground is so murky by then people start to think it was what you said.

having said that sometimes i do do it to others intentionally....

I'll remember that the next time you **** me off, or if I want to **** you off at some point

 

[BrainOfLevy]

=D>

I would like to see someone who disagrees with your stance actually address some of the points you made seriously without making pointless one liners, even if they don't agree with the post in general.

Talking of one liners. "Superfan 5000" made me laugh.

I'll address it later no problem. I don't think it's the thread killer that it's being made out to be whatsoever.

 

[Jordinho]

A straw man is when you (either on purpose or by accident) misrepresent the opposing argument and then attack that misrepresentation as if it was an opinion they actually hold, normally an easy target to argue against.

For example in AE's post I think saying that "some people think our EL group was challenging, and the fact we have beaten teams from Moldova and Norway should be held up to highlight AVB's managerial prowess" is a straw man. Unless I've missed something that's not a commonly held belief among those supporting AVB in this thread. Similarly I think saying "I would have said that there is more merit in discussing where we might be in a couple of games time than using tables that don't exist to prove how great we are." is a straw man as I don't see a lot of people saying that these table prove that we're great (or amazing as he, probably sarcastically, stated earlier in his post).

Of course I've missed quite a few pages in this thread (and have little interest in reading all of it) and if there are people here stating the opinions I've repeated here then those aren't straw man arguments and I probably owe AE an apology. Those opinions do seem strange though and I would be surprised if people on here actually hold those opinions.

Regarding our EL group, I've made the point that those teams aren't as poor as was being made out. Where winning all our games is considered the bare minimum, what more could we have done? It's not just those 3 teams, it's every game we play, never give the opposition any credit as that would mean it's not us being incredibly **** for not winning every game by at least 3 goals.

 

[africanspurs]

save for one team in the group we should be beating the rest in our group

pretty simple really. a draw is considered dropped points, that's just where we are now

 

[Armchair Expert]

Regarding our EL group, I've made the point that those teams aren't as poor as was being made out. Where winning all our games is considered the bare minimum, what more could we have done? It's not just those 3 teams, it's every game we play, never give the opposition any credit as that would mean it's not us being incredibly **** for not winning every game by at least 3 goals.

Braineclipse - would this be an example of a straw man argument in your book? I don't recall anyone saying that us winning by three goals is a pre-requisite, or that us failing to do so constitutes our being ****. Or is it just someone applying conditions to other peoples posts unjustly, ie we don't really think the performance was ****, or we don't really think the opposition was terrible, we just want to think it/pretend it in order to be able to have a good moan?

Its interesting the positive support seems to resort to statements like this, not acknowledging other peoples opinions - instead accusing them of lying to promote their own 'agenda' if you will, when those who are unhappy appear content to list why there unhappy and look to engage in debate but are called unreasonable for doing so.

When we try and air our views its all straw men and hidden agendas. When actually its just a view on a football match we'd like to discuss on a football forum. Interesting.

EDIT: reference the post - Winning all the games was the bare minimum against that opposition. And AVB achieved it. No great shakes.

 

[Armchair Expert]

save for one team in the group we should be beating the rest in our group

pretty simple really. a draw is considered dropped points, that's just where we are now

A draw can be considered drops points, depends on the context.

 

[thfcsteff]

Fair enough, if you feel that this season has been good so far littered with encouraging performances then good-o. Debating the teams performances during matches is surely has its place on a football forum though?

Since when has the opinion "i'm not convinced by our performances and feel we look turgid and toothless" been an excuse? Its not an excuse, its an observation.

A couple of questions for you: do you think the penalty awards were just? Do you think without them the picture would look a lot different? How many points do you think we'll take from our next two games? Do you see cause for optimism in our performances this season?

And I must add there is far more credence in hypothesising over the coming fixtures than welding a table together than spans parts of two different seasons as proof that were a good team today.

Discussion is great, but advocating sacking the manager right now is (IMHO) absurd.

As for the bold-face point, I'd say that last season we didn't get a single, solitary penalty when we deserved several, and thus if we want to start debating what penalties have been fortunate this season, it's IMPOSSIBLE to ignore last season. Put it this way, one or two penalties last season and we're playing on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Right?

 

[Jordinho]

[/B]

Braineclipse - would this be an example of a straw man argument in your book? I don't recall anyone saying that us winning by three goals is a pre-requisite, or that us failing to do so constitutes our being ****. Or is it just someone applying conditions to other peoples posts unjustly, ie we don't really think the performance was ****, or we don't really think the opposition was terrible, we just want to think it/pretend it in order to be able to have a good moan?

Its interesting the positive support seems to resort to statements like this, not acknowledging other peoples opinions - instead accusing them of lying to promote their own 'agenda' if you will, when those who are unhappy appear content to list why there unhappy and look to engage in debate but are called unreasonable for doing so.

When we try and air our views its all straw men and hidden agendas. When actually its just a view on a football match we'd like to discuss on a football forum. Interesting.

EDIT: reference the post - Winning all the games was the bare minimum against that opposition. And AVB achieved it. No great shakes.

There have been many complaints about our poor GD and not putting other teams to the sword. No matter how well we do, some will be coming on here and complaining that we aren't doing even better, whether it's not creating enough, not being clinical enough, not playing the right players, not giving kids a chance and so on. For some the grass will quite simply never be green enough. Having unrealistically high expectations plays a big part in that because they are rarely met.

As for the rest of your post: :lol:

 

[Modric THFC]

The problem is that there isn't anything to address. Armchair Expert dismisses any evidence that does support his view and doesn't offer any alternative evidence to support his opinion.

No one is arguing that we are the prettiest team in the league at the moment but the argument that we are going through a big transition seems to be a persuasive one to me and to bemoan us picking up point whilst we are going through that transition seems churlish.

I think that the time to judge the quality of the football is once the transition is complete. Obviously, you and others disagree but I am not sure this conversation can go anywhere when all you are offering to support your argument is ifs, buts and maybes.

Transition into what?
We've played the exact same way since AVB has been in charge. He started out with Jenas and Livermore playing were Paulinho and Dembele now do. But his mould of the team has always been the same. A Solid base to a team set up to counter attack. Everyone in the league knows how we play and we have no plan B for when a team decides to sit back and wait out for a 0-0.

Last January we were all hoping that Holtby was going to be the answer. That's how poor we were.
Then Bale turned into Ronaldo and all our shortcomings were forgotten.
Now we're back exactly were we were last year playing the exact same way. The AVB way.

 

[onlyme]

OK, let’s cut to the chase here. Soldado has flopped big time. Maybe he can get better, let’s hope so.
Last season we were scoring 2 goals a game but conceding lots. IMO that was because we had Scotty in midfield and BAE at LB. Of course there were a few ****-ups from KW as well.
We have improved defensively and we have better options in midfield but this term we ain’t scoring.
Our EPL options are Soldado and Defoe. Defoe has not scored an EPL goal in 2013 I think.
AVB is paid big bucks to make decisions. He is making wrong decisions and it seems to me nothing will happen to make him alter those decisions.
He has already stated he has a big desire to race fast cars. He is a millionaire. If he gets the bullet here he will get another job easy peasy. Ramos got a job at Real fecking Madrid.
He is treating Spurs as an experiment.
I am sick of managers at Spurs who go to war with our best players who are normally our strikers.

 

[indianspur]

OK, let’s cut to the chase here. Soldado has flopped big time. Maybe he can get better, let’s hope so.
Last season we were scoring 2 goals a game but conceding lots. IMO that was because we had Scotty in midfield and BAE at LB. Of course there were a few ****-ups from KW as well.
We have improved defensively and we have better options in midfield but this term we ain’t scoring.
Our EPL options are Soldado and Defoe. Defoe has not scored an EPL goal in 2013 I think.
AVB is paid big bucks to make decisions. He is making wrong decisions and it seems to me nothing will happen to make him alter those decisions.
He has already stated he has a big desire to race fast cars. He is a millionaire. If he gets the bullet here he will get another job easy peasy. Ramos got a job at Real fecking Madrid.
He is treating Spurs as an experiment.
I am sick of managers at Spurs who go to war with our best players who are normally our strikers.

are you saying he should make peace with Ade??

 

[billyiddo]

Transition into what?
We've played the exact same way since AVB has been in charge. He started out with Jenas and Livermore playing were Paulinho and Dembele now do. But his mould of the team has always been the same. A Solid base to a team set up to counter attack. Everyone in the league knows how we play and we have no plan B for when a team decides to sit back and wait out for a 0-0.

you think we're setting up to counter attack? id say that's the total opposite of what we're aiming for - we're trying to go from plucky counter attacking football of the previous few years to become a possession based team.

last season the high line wasn't as evident and we didn't dominate half as much as we do now - both these areas have taken a step forward and i think now that we have these area's 'sorted' it's a case of finding the right style with which to use that possession as a base from which to attack and break down our opponents - we've obviously not found the right combination of tactics/players atm to do so - maybe we won't do that, personally id like to see how our game develops once the likes of Eriksen and Lamela are in the team - even Chadli who in the games he played showed himself capable, imv, of providing some creativity. potentially that's 3 creative/intelligent players to come in to the team - which should ​further transform our general attacking play. If we get these players in to the team and we're still having the same problems then questions will have to be asked

 

[onlyme]

are you saying he should make peace with Ade??

You bet your fecking life!

Soldado started well. He was like Defoe only he never was offside and he shot on sight.

But he has slipped. Defoe was given an opp against WHU but did not take it.