Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

[braineclipse]

Come on, you're saying that he can't do any better after going 2-0 down in what 10 of last 13 games, 1 first half goal in 15 games. Yes the squad needs upgrading but it's not as bad as that. He should be able to come up with some tactics and organise the team to combat those things.

There's a limit to what he can do to mitigate for individual errors.

Yes, perhaps he could do better in the short run to "come up with assume tactics". That's not his style, and with all the talk about a need for a longer term strategy and plan is that really what we want?

Like most great managers he's a system manager first and foremost. I'm quite happy to see him working on implementing a system that can work better over time rather than trying to find short term solutions. That often comes with a short term cost, but that's the path to longer term success imo. That's the strategy people are seemingly asking for.

 

[braineclipse]

Around the same time last year when we were struggling he was interviewing mucg worse imo - personally i knew what he was like in interviews before he came here and so i don't pay it much attention, he doesn't like/hates losing and often comes across badly innthose circumstances

Spot on.

We know what angry Conte looks like, this isn't it.

He has said repeatedly that this will take time. Multiple transfer windows. He's been backed so far, can only assume he will be backed again or we will get angry Conte and he will walk or get sacked.

Other managers there may be a concern that he's resigned to his faith, but I don't think that's Conte. If he was really unhappy here we would know about it I think.

Would be a good statement of intent if he got and signed a new contract of course. But I think that would mostly be a public perception thing. What matters is what the plan is between Conte, Paratici and Levy and they're not going to tell us.

 

[DeanoAustin]

There's a limit to what he can do to mitigate for individual errors.

Yes, perhaps he could do better in the short run to "come up with assume tactics". That's not his style, and with all the talk about a need for a longer term strategy and plan is that really what we want?

Like most great managers he's a system manager first and foremost. I'm quite happy to see him working on implementing a system that can work better over time rather than trying to find short term solutions. That often comes with a short term cost, but that's the path to longer term success imo. That's the strategy people are seemingly asking for.

If it happens once or twice, I'd give the manager the benefit of the doubt. If it happens in 10 out of 13 games, that's on the manager. It's inconceivable that a world class manager, which he is, cannot come up with a plan to stop us going two down in 10 of 13 games (or whatever the stat is). Individual errors notwithstanding, Conte is responsible.

 

[braineclipse]

At this point it does feel that the club is hanging Conte out to dry.
I mean the PR team should be picking up on all these and its timely for a club statement around Conte etc. even if its repeating some statements about the optional year extension or contract negotiations or whatever.
Last important message I saw was that the club will be making a statement after the transfer window closes. Dry as a bone and creates more suspense to fuel internet conspiracy theorists.

Also what's happened to Paratici - has he been arrested? How are the investigations going and will he be absolved? Or is he busy giving Levy some training in the football financial dark arts Lol. I mean especially after news like fraud goes out, it would be good to see some mention about him or representing the club to provide assurance etc. Seems strange that everything has gone silent.

Silence and just Conte representing the club while the club's tightly controlled social media mouthpieces starts to go haywire - doesn't look good from a traditional PR point of view.

I think making a statement after the transfer window closes is the right approach. Isn't that when Paratici has had his statements/interviews before as well?

I don't think there are statements that can be made at this time that will appease the fans that are unhappy with Levy or Conte.

Because results and performances have been disappointing, and because of the contract situations of Conte and Kane there probably are uncertainties about what will happen in the next 6 months. The January transfer window is inherently difficult and uncertain.

Public statements that include uncertainties would not be well received and it wouldn't be a good idea to put that out in the open. Public statements that ignores uncertainties would be inaccurate, meaningless or easily be proven wrong in the future. There's nothing to say until the transfer window closes and Conte is either satisfied or angry. And that's also what ultimately matters.

 

[Raziel]

I think making a statement after the transfer window closes is the right approach. Isn't that when Paratici has had his statements/interviews before as well?

I don't think there are statements that can be made at this time that will appease the fans that are unhappy with Levy or Conte.

Because results and performances have been disappointing, and because of the contract situations of Conte and Kane there probably are uncertainties about what will happen in the next 6 months. The January transfer window is inherently difficult and uncertain.

Public statements that include uncertainties would not be well received and it wouldn't be a good idea to put that out in the open. Public statements that ignores uncertainties would be inaccurate, meaningless or easily be proven wrong in the future. There's nothing to say until the transfer window closes and Conte is either satisfied or angry. And that's also what ultimately matters.

This

- Anything that the club say now we be interpreted however the particular audience wants
- Sometimes the best PR is to shut up (so many people don't understand this)
- Makes much more sense spending the time/effort to actually go do something (transfers) that you can then discuss when the window closes.

 

[braineclipse]

If it happens once or twice, I'd give the manager the benefit of the doubt. If it happens in 10 out of 13 games, that's on the manager. It's inconceivable that a world class manager, which he is, cannot come up with a plan to stop us going two down in 10 of 13 games (or whatever the stat is). Individual errors notwithstanding, Conte is responsible.

There are multiple factors for that happening. Only some of those are within the control of the manager.

It may be good to try to rectify that through short term solutions. It may be bad.

Dig out whatever poor stat from the first couple of years from Arteta or Klopp. Should they have tried to fix that with a short term solution, or should they have worked towards slightly longer term solutions? Solutions that included sticking with the overall system, making good transfer decisions and getting the pieces in place for the system to work.

There are concerns about the longevity of Conte for various reasons. But the only thing he should do imo is work towards improving the team within his system.

Everone seemingly wants a long term strategy. Up to the point where there's a relatively short term drop in form. Then we need to fix that short term or find a new long term strategy. If we follow that we never get to the mid to long term benefits.

Most of the time a good mid to long term strategy will result in shorter term issues. As will a poor long term plan. As will ultimately a short term focus.

 

[Raziel]

There are multiple factors for that happening. Only some of those are within the control of the manager.

It may be good to try to rectify that through short term solutions. It may be bad.

Dig out whatever poor stat from the first couple of years from Arteta or Klopp. Should they have tried to fix that with a short term solution, or should they have worked towards slightly longer term solutions? Solutions that included sticking with the overall system, making good transfer decisions and getting the pieces in place for the system to work.

There are concerns about the longevity of Conte for various reasons. But the only thing he should do imo is work towards improving the team within his system.

Everone seemingly wants a long term strategy. Up to the point where there's a relatively short term drop in form. Then we need to fix that short term or find a new long term strategy. If we follow that we never get to the mid to long term benefits.

Most of the time a good mid to long term strategy will result in shorter term issues. As will a poor long term plan. As will ultimately a short term focus.

Spurs fans don't want a long term strategy, and it's time for people to admit that

- There are people who think the stadium should have already made up the money for us to compete with Arsenal and United overnight
- These are the same people "represented" by the THST who feel the club is in a crisis situation when we were 5th, 2 points of 3rd and needed an emergency response from the club
- Arteta is the subject of a whole other conversation, my opinion is he was an appointment to quiet fans (just like if we went back to Poch now, but with less pedigree), Arsenal has been in downfall for over a decade now (so expectations were less, they have been out of CL for 6 years, for context we have been in 5 of last 7 CLs but somehow Spurs is a brickshow), a shadow of the Wenger era side, something papered over by a couple of trophies and this season's run. I think Arsenal has paid off most of their debt (it's been 14 years since stadium), the owners have put some money in and they have improved and will be in the top 4 conversation again, but I think anyone who believes they are truly challenging the elite even next year is fudging deluded.
- Klopp, from the beginning you could see what he was trying to do, the football was at least fun to watch, he had proven he could do it in a similar type of situation.

This is the Conte problem
- It's hard to see what he wants to do (is it really nothing more than getting WB's to swing a cross in? where does the defense come from?)
- Even if it is successful, is it going to be like watching paint dry every fudging game?
- Does it help the club if we abandon things like youth/promising players?
- Will he ever embrace the club and get fans to feel like he's here, he's part of us, or will always be him doing poor little Spurs a favor?

Klopp, Arteta, Pep embrace their clubs, they don't question the club (Klopp complains about budgets all the time, in the right context "we" can't compete in certain markets without bricking on the club), they get the fans on their side. Conte is being used by fans/THST/media to create even more divisions, to make the atmosphere even worse.

That's why I really no longer see how Conte works, I think the clubs knows it as well, it's what is the exit strategy from here

 

[braineclipse]

Spurs fans don't want a long term strategy, and it's time for people to admit that

- There are people who think the stadium should have already made up the money for us to compete with Arsenal and United overnight
- These are the same people "represented" by the THST who feel the club is in a crisis situation when we were 5th, 2 points of 3rd and needed an emergency response from the club
- Arteta is the subject of a whole other conversation, my opinion is he was an appointment to quiet fans (just like if we went back to Poch now, but with less pedigree), Arsenal has been in downfall for over a decade now (so expectations were less, they have been out of CL for 6 years, for context we have been in 5 of last 7 CLs but somehow Spurs is a brickshow), a shadow of the Wenger era side, something papered over by a couple of trophies and this season's run. I think Arsenal has paid off most of their debt (it's been 14 years since stadium), the owners have put some money in and they have improved and will be in the top 4 conversation again, but I think anyone who believes they are truly challenging the elite even next year is fudging deluded.
- Klopp, from the beginning you could see what he was trying to do, the football was at least fun to watch, he had proven he could do it in a similar type of situation.

This is the Conte problem
- It's hard to see what he wants to do (is it really nothing more than getting WB's to swing a cross in? where does the defense come from?)
- Even if it is successful, is it going to be like watching paint dry every fudging game?
- Does it help the club if we abandon things like youth/promising players?
- Will he ever embrace the club and get fans to feel like he's here, he's part of us, or will always be him doing poor little Spurs a favor?

Klopp, Arteta, Pep embrace their clubs, they don't question the club (Klopp complains about budgets all the time, in the right context "we" can't compete in certain markets without bricking on the club), they get the fans on their side. Conte is being used by fans/THST/media to create even more divisions, to make the atmosphere even worse.

That's why I really no longer see how Conte works, I think the clubs knows it as well, it's what is the exit strategy from here

When we clicked into form last season I didn't think it was like watching paint dry. It wasn't just about getting wing backs to swing in crosses either.

A big part of the problem this season has been recreating that form. For me that's more about the players that have been missing through injuries, the players that have regressed (Lloris and Son in particular) and the lack of good options in the squad. Less about Conte's style of football being the problem.

I agree on young players. We have seen him try and succeed with Kulusevski. Try and not succeed with Sessegnon. We're seeing Gil and Sarr making positive steps. We need to see more of that, but there are some positive signs. If he refuses or consistently fails in this regard I think it's unsustainable. I don't think that's the case yet at least.

I have questions about his longevity. Both the contract/commitment and how he can do past 2-3 seasons. So far he's unproven in that regard.

For me those are uncertainties rather than a reason for us to change manager (any new manager would also have uncertainties).

For me it's on Paratici to find players that are young enough for the overall strategy, but also good enough short term for Conte to work well with them. And to future proof the squad if those uncertainties end up becoming a change of manager.

By my estimation Paratici is doing a good job at that so far. So I think it's viable going forward. And I think the upside that will follow if we can click into gear under Conte is massive. Thus worth sticking with him if he's happy enough with our recruitment now and in the summer.

But. I think Conte most likely needs us to have a good January window to get the short term performances back to an acceptable level this season. And that is needed for Conte and the club to be satisfied going into the summer.

I think there's a real risk of failure with Conte. But also a potentially big upside. If Paratici does his job well with the future proofing the downside of giving Conte more time should be relatively small if Conte does fail.

 

[Mikey10]

If it happens once or twice, I'd give the manager the benefit of the doubt. If it happens in 10 out of 13 games, that's on the manager. It's inconceivable that a world class manager, which he is, cannot come up with a plan to stop us going two down in 10 of 13 games (or whatever the stat is). Individual errors notwithstanding, Conte is responsible.

I agree...to an extent.

No manager in the world can legislate for an error like Hugo's on Sunday. It sucked the air out of the crowd, drained the players of any confidence they had and we were immediately facing an uphill struggle.

It's of course not the first time Hugo's done it (in fact, he had already almost gifted Arsenal a goal even before his real howler). And he's not the only one. Individual errors are costing us lots of goals and placing us in the difficult situations to begin with. So I'm not sure that you can just dismiss that with 'Individual errors notwithstanding...'.

Some of the players simply aren't good enough, others are suffering a terrible loss of form. Again, any manager will struggle to mitigate for those things. We need quality options/replacements.

Conte does need to show more flexibility in his system at the moment, though, I feel. He also needs to be braver and drop those who aren't doing the job.

 

[Bishop]

Spurs fans don't want a long term strategy, and it's time for people to admit that

- There are people who think the stadium should have already made up the money for us to compete with Arsenal and United overnight
- These are the same people "represented" by the THST who feel the club is in a crisis situation when we were 5th, 2 points of 3rd and needed an emergency response from the club
- Arteta is the subject of a whole other conversation, my opinion is he was an appointment to quiet fans (just like if we went back to Poch now, but with less pedigree), Arsenal has been in downfall for over a decade now (so expectations were less, they have been out of CL for 6 years, for context we have been in 5 of last 7 CLs but somehow Spurs is a brickshow), a shadow of the Wenger era side, something papered over by a couple of trophies and this season's run. I think Arsenal has paid off most of their debt (it's been 14 years since stadium), the owners have put some money in and they have improved and will be in the top 4 conversation again, but I think anyone who believes they are truly challenging the elite even next year is fudging deluded.
- Klopp, from the beginning you could see what he was trying to do, the football was at least fun to watch, he had proven he could do it in a similar type of situation.

This is the Conte problem
- It's hard to see what he wants to do (is it really nothing more than getting WB's to swing a cross in? where does the defense come from?)
- Even if it is successful, is it going to be like watching paint dry every fudging game?
- Does it help the club if we abandon things like youth/promising players?
- Will he ever embrace the club and get fans to feel like he's here, he's part of us, or will always be him doing poor little Spurs a favor?

Klopp, Arteta, Pep embrace their clubs, they don't question the club (Klopp complains about budgets all the time, in the right context "we" can't compete in certain markets without bricking on the club), they get the fans on their side. Conte is being used by fans/THST/media to create even more divisions, to make the atmosphere even worse.

That's why I really no longer see how Conte works, I think the clubs knows it as well, it's what is the exit strategy from here

I don't have a problem with long term, it's been 15+ years ie. the definition of long-term. I have an issue with the lack of a clear cut strategy. We lurch from model to the other appointing whichever coach Levy thinks will be the one to do it this time without an understanding of what Spurs actually needs and how the incoming coach has previously approached their jobs. It's boring to go over it but the hiring of Jose said it all. We went for the quick results guy but without a willingness to support him with the resources he needed to perform.

I can take another 20 years of winning nothing if the club looks ambitious and has a clear plan. Sadly that isn't the case.

What I can not support is the continual lurch from one idea to another. It betrays the lack of a grand plan and/or a lack understanding of how to enact it.

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk

 

[Lilbaz]

I don't have a problem with long term, it's been 15+ years ie. the definition of long-term. I have an issue with the lack of a clear cut strategy. We lurch from model to the other appointing whichever coach Levy thinks will be the one to do it this time without an understanding of what Spurs actually needs and how the incoming coach has previously approached their jobs. It's boring to go over it but the hiring of Jose said it all. We went for the quick results guy but without a willingness to support him with the resources he needed to perform.

I can take another 20 years of winning nothing if the club looks ambitious and has a clear plan. Sadly that isn't the case.

What I can not support is the continual lurch from one idea to another. It betrays the lack of a grand plan and/or a lack understanding of how to enact it.

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk

Isn't that why paratici was brought in?

 

[DeanoAustin]

There are multiple factors for that happening. Only some of those are within the control of the manager.

It may be good to try to rectify that through short term solutions. It may be bad.

Dig out whatever poor stat from the first couple of years from Arteta or Klopp. Should they have tried to fix that with a short term solution, or should they have worked towards slightly longer term solutions? Solutions that included sticking with the overall system, making good transfer decisions and getting the pieces in place for the system to work.

There are concerns about the longevity of Conte for various reasons. But the only thing he should do imo is work towards improving the team within his system.

Everone seemingly wants a long term strategy. Up to the point where there's a relatively short term drop in form. Then we need to fix that short term or find a new long term strategy. If we follow that we never get to the mid to long term benefits.

Most of the time a good mid to long term strategy will result in shorter term issues. As will a poor long term plan. As will ultimately a short term focus.

That's all fine in theory. Conte operates in a results business and he isn't getting them right now. And he's underachieving recently with what he has.

It's nice to think that this conceding leads and crap first halves is some necessary pain we need to go through to achieve Conte's vision. It isn't. If any system requires you to go 2-0 down every week and perform limply in the first half, it's not a good system. The fact is, this system ahs never done that before in Conte's career. Therefore, as the coach, he needs to find some way, within his system, to stop this pattern from happening time and again. We all knew with the comebacks that it wasn't sustainable and the first halves either needed to get better or results would catch up with us. The latter has happened. It's Conte's job to fix this pattern.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I agree...to an extent.

No manager in the world can legislate for an error like Hugo's on Sunday. It sucked the air out of the crowd, drained the players of any confidence they had and we were immediately facing an uphill struggle.

It's of course not the first time Hugo's done it (in fact, he had already almost gifted Arsenal a goal even before his real howler). And he's not the only one. Individual errors are costing us lots of goals and placing us in the difficult situations to begin with. So I'm not sure that you can just dismiss that with 'Individual errors notwithstanding...'.

Some of the players simply aren't good enough, others are suffering a terrible loss of form. Again, any manager will struggle to mitigate for those things. We need quality options/replacements.

Conte does need to show more flexibility in his system at the moment, though, I feel. He also needs to be braver and drop those who aren't doing the job.

You have a point on the Hugo error. However, I'd argue that the first problem with that goal is that Partey brings the ball out unchallenged and clips one into our left back area. He was doing it all day long. That's a failure of the tactics'/system. The second is Sessegnon is ball-watching and allows Saka the freedom of the right wing. That's down to coaching in my view.

Conte is responsible here. You can't have the same thing happen week after week and put it down to individual errors.

 

[Bishop]

Isn't that why paratici was brought in?

Time will of course tell as to whether Paratici is first capable of performing the role we require and also whether he will be allowed to perform it fully. He is not the first DoF we have had so I think it would be a bit naive to just assume that we once again have a DoF everything will work to a structured strategy. Fingers crossed.

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk

 

[braineclipse]

That's all fine in theory. Conte operates in a results business and he isn't getting them right now. And he's underachieving recently with what he has.

It's nice to think that this conceding leads and crap first halves is some necessary pain we need to go through to achieve Conte's vision. It isn't. If any system requires you to go 2-0 down every week and perform limply in the first half, it's not a good system. The fact is, this system ahs never done that before in Conte's career. Therefore, as the coach, he needs to find some way, within his system, to stop this pattern from happening time and again. We all knew with the comebacks that it wasn't sustainable and the first halves either needed to get better or results would catch up with us. The latter has happened. It's Conte's job to fix this pattern.

I agree that it's his job to fix it. I agree that it's unsustainable.

But I don't think a change of system is the answer.

I think there are necessary pains to go through. Not that those pains are good or necessary in themselves to get better. But that it's a consequence of trying to play with a clear overall system, of building a team and squad that can play this way. There will be times along the way when the solutions aren't there within the squad. When poor form and injuries set in before the required pieces in the squad are in place.

Can try to change the style of play to improve short term or can try to build something cohesive over time. Both are decent solutions, but I prefer the system approach as the long term gains can be much greater.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I agree that it's his job to fix it. I agree that it's unsustainable.

But I don't think a change of system is the answer.

I think there are necessary pains to go through. Not that those pains are good or necessary in themselves to get better. But that it's a consequence of trying to play with a clear overall system, of building a team and squad that can play this way. There will be times along the way when the solutions aren't there within the squad. When poor form and injuries set in before the required pieces in the squad are in place.

Can try to change the style of play to improve short term or can try to build something cohesive over time. Both are decent solutions, but I prefer the system approach as the long term gains can be much greater.

Good post. I think we're in agreement then. I'd have played 3-5-2 on Sunday probably but I've enough self-awareness to know that Conte knows infinitely more about the game than me. If he wants to go 3-4-3, I'll go with that. But he's got to stop the pattern of matches that we're seeing every week. Fingers crossed he starts on Thursday.

 

[iggyfog]

Seems like people are saying that we are in the middle of a rebuild with a manager trying to play his system and that we need to be patient and appreciate that there will be ups and downs.

I remember when Rodgers was first at liverpool and they got battered by West Brom in their fist game - match of the day highlighted the fact that liverpool suffered because they were trying to play out the back and failed. They stuck with it and got better - could say the same with Aresnal.

I would buy into this and be optimistic about it if our manager however had a longer term contract....

 

[Baleforce]

Seems like people are saying that we are in the middle of a rebuild with a manager trying to play his system and that we need to be patient and appreciate that there will be ups and downs.

I remember when Rodgers was first at liverpool and they got battered by West Brom in their fist game - match of the day highlighted the fact that liverpool suffered because they were trying to play out the back and failed. They stuck with it and got better - could say the same with Aresnal.

I would buy into this and be optimistic about it if our manager however had a longer term contract....

what about the director of football also tracking managers that play the same system...

 

[tommysvr]

There are concerns about the longevity of Conte for various reasons. But the only thing he should do imo is work towards improving the team within his system.

Everone seemingly wants a long term strategy. Up to the point where there's a relatively short term drop in form. Then we need to fix that short term or find a new long term strategy. If we follow that we never get to the mid to long term benefits.

Most of the time a good mid to long term strategy will result in shorter term issues. As will a poor long term plan. As will ultimately a short term focus.

You want long term strategy? Then maybe sign a proper contract beyond the next 5 months (+12).

 

[Baleforce]

A long term strategy requires the coaches to be replaceable too.

They don’t necessarily all need to play the same formation, but be able to work with the majority of the same squad.