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American politics

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It never fails to amaze me how little the americans think of their judicial system. particularly the "law and order"-party. Every single time someone has to face justice for something, it is a "witch-hunt", a "political process", or what have you.
Yet, don't you _dare_ to say anything to suggest that some other country may accidently have come up with a system that is _better_ then the american. That's just plain old communism, of course!

It is one or the other, you can't have it both ways.
So decide, is USA a banana republic, with sham courts and fake trials, or is it the "best country, best system in the world"?

If it IS a banana republic, and Trump FAILED to win a single of his hundreds of cases to prove election fraud, he just isn't big enough a banana to play in that league. OR, it is _NOT_ a banana republic, and Trump is facing a fair, just and proper handling of his case in the court of law, where he will either be found guilty, or aquitted.
 
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dingdongo said:
Is he actually gonna end up in a prison?
Click to expand...

Maybe not for this charge, although we don't know the full indictment charges yet. The one felony-charge people expect in this particular case has a upper limit of 5 years in prison, the other charges are misdemeanors or smaller charges usually punished by fines.
But as we don't know the full range of charges that the grand jury has seen the evidence on, we don't know. There may be more, or this may be it.

However, this could just be the first of _many_ charges. He is still under investigation for those famous phone calls in Georgia, and if those cases lead to charges, they are punishable by prison time.

The big one though, well, that is the document case. Willfull and illegal retaining classified material is not something the court will be able to "let go" if it ends up in the court. That one alone can send him behind bars for years if found guilty. And I have a sneaky feeling that there may yet be a twist or two in that tale as well.
 
Junior19 said:
Maybe not for this charge, although we don't know the full indictment charges yet. The one felony-charge people expect in this particular case has a upper limit of 5 years in prison, the other charges are misdemeanors or smaller charges usually punished by fines.
But as we don't know the full range of charges that the grand jury has seen the evidence on, we don't know. There may be more, or this may be it.

However, this could just be the first of _many_ charges. He is still under investigation for those famous phone calls in Georgia, and if those cases lead to charges, they are punishable by prison time.

The big one though, well, that is the document case. Willfull and illegal retaining classified material is not something the court will be able to "let go" if it ends up in the court. That one alone can send him behind bars for years if found guilty. And I have a sneaky feeling that there may yet be a twist or two in that tale as well.
Click to expand...
No legal eagle here so maybe a silly question, actually will be a silly question, but he had an affair and paid the broad to keep her mouth shut about it, where does that sit legally, I mean surely it happens all the time, even in the legal system when someone blatantly knobbles an underage kid and pays them off through the courts or super injunctions on silence? What's the major difference?



Sent from my SM-A127F using Fapatalk
 
Junior19 said:
Maybe not for this charge, although we don't know the full indictment charges yet. The one felony-charge people expect in this particular case has a upper limit of 5 years in prison, the other charges are misdemeanors or smaller charges usually punished by fines.
But as we don't know the full range of charges that the grand jury has seen the evidence on, we don't know. There may be more, or this may be it.

However, this could just be the first of _many_ charges. He is still under investigation for those famous phone calls in Georgia, and if those cases lead to charges, they are punishable by prison time.

The big one though, well, that is the document case. Willfull and illegal retaining classified material is not something the court will be able to "let go" if it ends up in the court. That one alone can send him behind bars for years if found guilty. And I have a sneaky feeling that there may yet be a twist or two in that tale as well.
Click to expand...
The Jack Smith investigation is the motherlode.
 
Grays_1890 said:
No legal eagle here so maybe a silly question, actually will be a silly question, but he had an affair and paid the broad to keep her mouth shut about it, where does that sit legally, I mean surely it happens all the time, even in the legal system when someone blatantly knobbles an underage kid and pays them off through the courts or super injunctions on silence? What's the major difference?



Sent from my SM-A127F using Fapatalk
Click to expand...
The payoff is small beans, like his junk. It is a misdemeanor, albeit one that may have swung an election!! However the follow-up crimes - the coverup, campaign finance violations, maybe tax crimes and who knows what else ramps up the legal volume a few notches. Pecker (National Enquirer) has a safe load of kompromat on Trump and has testified to the grand jury so I suspect there is more to this than just the Stormy Daniels thing. And that the indictments are noted as felonies, not misdemeanors, means they are more than hush money.
Weisselberg, Trump's money man over the years, has now hired a lawyer specialising in racketeering. That might be another clue where this is going.
 
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Rorschach said:
The payoff is small beans, like his junk. It is a misdemeanor, albeit one that may have swung an election!! However the follow-up crimes - the coverup, campaign finance violations, maybe tax crimes and who knows what else ramps up the legal volume a few notches. Pecker (National Enquirer) has a safe load of kompromat on Trump and has testified to the grand jury so I suspect there is more to this than the Stormy Daniels thing. And that the indictments are noted as felonies, not misdemeanors, means they are more than hush money.
Weisselberg, Trump's money man over the years, has now hired a lawyer specialising in racketeering. That might be another clue where this is going.
Click to expand...

Nice one, appreciate the explanation, did not realise the trail thereafter
 
dingdongo said:
Is he actually gonna end up in a prison?
Click to expand...
Not for this, no.

The big crime here was using campaign funds for the pay off. The statute of limitations has expired on that so they can't charge him with it.

The only thing I can see coming out of this (unless the grand jury has found something we don't know about) is a New York Class B Misdemeanor for intentional misfiling of his paperwork. Even then, intent is required to be proven and intent is notoriously difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

As has been stated above, there are three other much stronger cases that will be charging in the next year or so that have far heavier consequences.
 
I avoid reading the details on Trump, but the Stormy Daniels thing and the "taking paperwork home" stuff seem so inconsequential compared to things like allegedly
Inciting a resurrection
Lying about voter fraud
The 50,000 blatant lies whilst President
A business "empire" built on er... unsound practice
Hanging out with Epstein etc
 
Not sure whether to put this in the US thread or British.

Decided on the US one because I thought it’s most relevant to it even if it’s a British guy I’m talking about.

In my work as a support worker for adults with learning disabilities. I’ve met more than one person who believes a group called the world economic forum are trying to bring in a ‘social credit’ system where your loyalty/ disloyalty to the government dictates what you can buy in a shop.

I thought at the time this idea is so fringe, out there and crazy that it doesn’t warrant my attention much at all.

I’m unapologetically leftist but we had agency workers who came in. Most didn’t do their jobs in the slightest and never gave a single fudge about the people we cared for.

But ever increasingly someone would appear who subscribed completely to this ‘world economic forum’ ideas.

One day in January I was walking with one of the guys we supported and a new agency worker.

He was spouting out all this - clearly right wing - propaganda.

He then said ‘you know who’s a very intelligent guy. Russell Brand’

I can’t rember the ins and outs of what we were talking about. But he’d just expressed an idea that was clearly right wing. I said ‘but Russell Brand is left wing?’

He said ‘no you’re thinking of his old stuff. His new stuff now is different’

Afterwards I forgot about this for 3-4 months. The other day I saw an article about Brand’s divergence to the right and it reminded me about the whole conversation again.

I wouldn’t necessarily say any of it is a complete shock to me, but it is was still a surprise that the same guy who backed Jeremy Corbyn a couple years back is now a right wing populist.

Personally I blame the inherent right wing sway of tailboids and the failure of the right wing press to confront conspiracy head on.

When the right are backed by people like Tucker Carlson they always downplay the association between right wing populism and anti-Semitic tropes.

This coming from myself, a left wing pro-Palestinian who has, in the past, been labelled on this forum an anti-Semite for daring to question whether the country of Israel is guilty of apartheid.

Not sure how to conclude this. I’m just so surprised that Russell Brand’s now a right wing activist and that it should give us pause to think that the same group who praised recognising Israel’s capital as Jerusalem night themselves be the backers of an anti-Semitic populist movement.
 
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Craig_J said:
Not sure whether to put this in the US thread or British.

Decided on the US one because I thought it’s most relevant to it even if it’s a British guy I’m talking about.

In my work as a support worker for adults with learning disabilities. I’ve met more than one person who believes a group called the world economic forum are trying to bring in a ‘social credit’ system where your loyalty/ disloyalty to the government dictates what you can buy in a shop.

I thought at the time this idea is so fringe, out there and crazy that it doesn’t warrant my attention much at all.

I’m unapologetically leftist but we had agency workers who came in. Most didn’t do their jobs in the slightest and never gave a single fudge about the people we cared for.

But ever increasingly someone would appear who subscribed completely to this ‘world economic forum’ ideas.

One day in January I was walking with one of the guys we supported and a new agency worker.

He was spouting out all this - clearly right wing - propaganda.

He then said ‘you know who’s a very intelligent guy. Russell Brand’

I can’t rember the ins and outs of what we were talking about. But he’d just expressed an idea that was clearly right wing. I said ‘but Russell Brand is left wing?’

He said ‘no you’re thinking of his old stuff. His new stuff now is different’

Afterwards I forgot about this for 3-4 months. The other day I saw an article about Brand’s divergence to the right and it reminded me about the whole conversation again.

I wouldn’t necessarily say any of it is a complete shock to me, but it is was still a surprise that the same guy who backed Jeremy Corbyn a couple years back is now a right wing populist.

Personally I blame the inherent right wing sway of tailboids and the failure of the right wing press to confront conspiracy head on.

When the right are backed by people like Tucker Carlson they always downplay the association between right wing populism and anti-Semitic tropes.

This coming from myself, a left wing pro-Palestinian who has, in the past, been labelled on this forum an anti-Semite for daring to question whether the country of Israel is guilty of apartheid.

Not sure how to conclude this. I’m just so surprised that Russell Brand’s now a right wing activist and that it should give us pause to think that the same group who praised recognising Israel’s capital as Jerusalem night themselves be the backers of an anti-Semitic populist movement.
Click to expand...
I think Brand is chasing the clicks and he's making green on the back of it. He's jumped on the whole Dutch farmer/nitrate thing but has filtered the story through a blood and soil conspiracy flimflam lens. Souled out.
 
Craig_J said:
Not sure whether to put this in the US thread or British.

Decided on the US one because I thought it’s most relevant to it even if it’s a British guy I’m talking about.

In my work as a support worker for adults with learning disabilities. I’ve met more than one person who believes a group called the world economic forum are trying to bring in a ‘social credit’ system where your loyalty/ disloyalty to the government dictates what you can buy in a shop.

I thought at the time this idea is so fringe, out there and crazy that it doesn’t warrant my attention much at all.

I’m unapologetically leftist but we had agency workers who came in. Most didn’t do their jobs in the slightest and never gave a single fudge about the people we cared for.

But ever increasingly someone would appear who subscribed completely to this ‘world economic forum’ ideas.

One day in January I was walking with one of the guys we supported and a new agency worker.

He was spouting out all this - clearly right wing - propaganda.

He then said ‘you know who’s a very intelligent guy. Russell Brand’

I can’t rember the ins and outs of what we were talking about. But he’d just expressed an idea that was clearly right wing. I said ‘but Russell Brand is left wing?’

He said ‘no you’re thinking of his old stuff. His new stuff now is different’

Afterwards I forgot about this for 3-4 months. The other day I saw an article about Brand’s divergence to the right and it reminded me about the whole conversation again.

I wouldn’t necessarily say any of it is a complete shock to me, but it is was still a surprise that the same guy who backed Jeremy Corbyn a couple years back is now a right wing populist.

Personally I blame the inherent right wing sway of tailboids and the failure of the right wing press to confront conspiracy head on.

When the right are backed by people like Tucker Carlson they always downplay the association between right wing populism and anti-Semitic tropes.

This coming from myself, a left wing pro-Palestinian who has, in the past, been labelled on this forum an anti-Semite for daring to question whether the country of Israel is guilty of apartheid.

Not sure how to conclude this. I’m just so surprised that Russell Brand’s now a right wing activist and that it should give us pause to think that the same group who praised recognising Israel’s capital as Jerusalem night themselves be the backers of an anti-Semitic populist movement.
Click to expand...

I admire your patience, i would probably have tuned out when he claimed brand was a veey intelligent guy.
I have a colleague who up until about 5 years ago had no interest in politics, history or even economics.
Now he is a total right wing basket case.
He goes on about the WEF and social credit stuff all the time, has mentioned brand a few times.
Now i have a passing interest in politics, no interest in economics and like a bit of history, but brand would not be my go to guy for any of that.
I thought he was a fool when he was a leftie lovie and i don't think my opinion will change because he has apparently jumped sides.
Have you heard him, how far to right has he gone? Is he as far to right as he was to the left?
 
Rorschach said:
I think Brand is chasing the clicks and he's making green on the back of it. He's jumped on the whole Dutch farmer/nitrate thing but has filtered the story through a blood and soil conspiracy flimflam lens. Souled out.
Click to expand...

I feel like I agree with this. I say I feel like I agree with this because I do get what you mean about chasing after the latest trend and clicks. That whole Dutch farmer thing is exactly what I've heard. The first guy I heard talk about it - I could rationalise it away. Not because what he was saying was right but - as he was a Christian I thought (no offense to anyone who's religious, I know not all religious people are the same) that if you already believe in something without proof then you're probably gonna be more susceptible to having other beliefs which aren't based on evidence.

The second guy joined my workplace a couple months later. Started saying exctly what the first gy had. About Karl Schwab sounding like Dr. Evil and having a sinister Austrian accent. Then impersonating him and saying 'in future humans will eat bones'. Was word for word what the other guy said. I said 'OH you have to talk to ____ you would have a lot in common!'

I still found it completely insane and so fringe that it wasn't worth thinking about.

Then when a third guy comes along you start to realise that this is actually an idea that has taken hold with some people and that it's more than a coincidence.

glasgowspur said:
I admire your patience, i would probably have tuned out when he claimed brand was a veey intelligent guy.
I have a colleague who up until about 5 years ago had no interest in politics, history or even economics.
Now he is a total right wing basket case.
He goes on about the WEF and social credit stuff all the time, has mentioned brand a few times.
Now i have a passing interest in politics, no interest in economics and like a bit of history, but brand would not be my go to guy for any of that.
I thought he was a fool when he was a leftie lovie and i don't think my opinion will change because he has apparently jumped sides.
Have you heard him, how far to right has he gone? Is he as far to right as he was to the left?
Click to expand...

Yeah even when Brand supposedly leaned towards 'progressive ideas' I took him with a pinch of salt. I'm left wing but I can't stand any of that yogi crap. Especially the all knowing patronizing way he'd espouse it.

I'll be honest and say I did like his humor and comedy and thought it was good he was getting my age group involved in debates around 10 years ago, though I didn't think it was smart at all to tell young people not to vote. Especially seeing as he followed that up by telling people to vote Miliband in the end.

I haven't listened to him in the last 5 years which is why I was so surprised, though not completely shocked, to see that he's espousing right wing conspiracy theories.

It seems to be quite the trend. Two other guys I can name of the top of my head who have followed the same path are George Galloway and Julian Assange. Both of them would've been very considered left wing. Assange seemed to make his jump the same time he got in legal trouble and George Galloway either made his jump in the last few years since Brexit, or has just become more vocal about his right wing tendencies and beliefs.

I'll hold my hand up and say I was a fan of George Galloway. I'm 29 years old so maybe I was wrong with my categorization of him as a friend of the left the entire time. Assange I know less about but people would've held him up as a leftie years ago. Another similar type is Kanye West. I've always thought his music is brick but seemed admired by progressive Americans and now it's the complete opposite.

I guess because there's more than one example it does show that the horseshoe theory of far left to far right is true and that eventually you can tip from one extreme to the other.

It seems there's now a group of people who are a weird convoluted mix of new age, spiritual, anti-establishment, anti-free speech. They're extremely distrustful of the mainstream media and science but all too willing to blindly follow random completely unverified posts they find online.

Like the whole QAnon thing. These people don't believe in anything any government says itself but believe anonymous posts on the internet.

I would have answered right now that he was more left than he is currently right, purely because I am still more familiar with him as a leftist than what he is now - but having just googled the latest on him he's cozying up to Don. Jr. and saying it's hypocritical to be in a frenzy over Trump but not Clinton so I have changed my mind and have to say he is more outwardly right then he ever was left.
 
Craig_J said:
I feel like I agree with this. I say I feel like I agree with this because I do get what you mean about chasing after the latest trend and clicks. That whole Dutch farmer thing is exactly what I've heard. The first guy I heard talk about it - I could rationalise it away. Not because what he was saying was right but - as he was a Christian I thought (no offense to anyone who's religious, I know not all religious people are the same) that if you already believe in something without proof then you're probably gonna be more susceptible to having other beliefs which aren't based on evidence.

The second guy joined my workplace a couple months later. Started saying exctly what the first gy had. About Karl Schwab sounding like Dr. Evil and having a sinister Austrian accent. Then impersonating him and saying 'in future humans will eat bones'. Was word for word what the other guy said. I said 'OH you have to talk to ____ you would have a lot in common!'

I still found it completely insane and so fringe that it wasn't worth thinking about.

Then when a third guy comes along you start to realise that this is actually an idea that has taken hold with some people and that it's more than a coincidence.



Yeah even when Brand supposedly leaned towards 'progressive ideas' I took him with a pinch of salt. I'm left wing but I can't stand any of that yogi crap. Especially the all knowing patronizing way he'd espouse it.

I'll be honest and say I did like his humor and comedy and thought it was good he was getting my age group involved in debates around 10 years ago, though I didn't think it was smart at all to tell young people not to vote. Especially seeing as he followed that up by telling people to vote Miliband in the end.

I haven't listened to him in the last 5 years which is why I was so surprised, though not completely shocked, to see that he's espousing right wing conspiracy theories.

It seems to be quite the trend. Two other guys I can name of the top of my head who have followed the same path are George Galloway and Julian Assange. Both of them would've been very considered left wing. Assange seemed to make his jump the same time he got in legal trouble and George Galloway either made his jump in the last few years since Brexit, or has just become more vocal about his right wing tendencies and beliefs.

I'll hold my hand up and say I was a fan of George Galloway. I'm 29 years old so maybe I was wrong with my categorization of him as a friend of the left the entire time. Assange I know less about but people would've held him up as a leftie years ago. Another similar type is Kanye West. I've always thought his music is brick but seemed admired by progressive Americans and now it's the complete opposite.

I guess because there's more than one example it does show that the horseshoe theory of far left to far right is true and that eventually you can tip from one extreme to the other.

It seems there's now a group of people who are a weird convoluted mix of new age, spiritual, anti-establishment, anti-free speech. They're extremely distrustful of the mainstream media and science but all too willing to blindly follow random completely unverified posts they find online.

Like the whole QAnon thing. These people don't believe in anything any government says itself but believe anonymous posts on the internet.

I would have answered right now that he was more left than he is currently right, purely because I am still more familiar with him as a leftist than what he is now - but having just googled the latest on him he's cozying up to Don. Jr. and saying it's hypocritical to be in a frenzy over Trump but not Clinton so I have changed my mind and have to say he is more outwardly right then he ever was left.
Click to expand...


Galloway is a gifted orator who uses that gift to line his own pockets. He will go where the money is.
I know nothing about assange tbh.
Only two things I've ever taken from my dad, supporting spurs and a saying he had when discussing politics or religion, don't trust me, go and find out for yourself and make your mind up.
The left and right stuff does my head in, few people are wholely one or the other and therr usually is much between them in my experience. It's all about control in the end.
 
Craig_J said:
Not sure whether to put this in the US thread or British.

Decided on the US one because I thought it’s most relevant to it even if it’s a British guy I’m talking about.

In my work as a support worker for adults with learning disabilities. I’ve met more than one person who believes a group called the world economic forum are trying to bring in a ‘social credit’ system where your loyalty/ disloyalty to the government dictates what you can buy in a shop.

I thought at the time this idea is so fringe, out there and crazy that it doesn’t warrant my attention much at all.

I’m unapologetically leftist but we had agency workers who came in. Most didn’t do their jobs in the slightest and never gave a single fudge about the people we cared for.

But ever increasingly someone would appear who subscribed completely to this ‘world economic forum’ ideas.

One day in January I was walking with one of the guys we supported and a new agency worker.

He was spouting out all this - clearly right wing - propaganda.

He then said ‘you know who’s a very intelligent guy. Russell Brand’

I can’t rember the ins and outs of what we were talking about. But he’d just expressed an idea that was clearly right wing. I said ‘but Russell Brand is left wing?’

He said ‘no you’re thinking of his old stuff. His new stuff now is different’

Afterwards I forgot about this for 3-4 months. The other day I saw an article about Brand’s divergence to the right and it reminded me about the whole conversation again.

I wouldn’t necessarily say any of it is a complete shock to me, but it is was still a surprise that the same guy who backed Jeremy Corbyn a couple years back is now a right wing populist.

Personally I blame the inherent right wing sway of tailboids and the failure of the right wing press to confront conspiracy head on.

When the right are backed by people like Tucker Carlson they always downplay the association between right wing populism and anti-Semitic tropes.

This coming from myself, a left wing pro-Palestinian who has, in the past, been labelled on this forum an anti-Semite for daring to question whether the country of Israel is guilty of apartheid.

Not sure how to conclude this. I’m just so surprised that Russell Brand’s now a right wing activist and that it should give us pause to think that the same group who praised recognising Israel’s capital as Jerusalem night themselves be the backers of an anti-Semitic populist movement.
Click to expand...

The bloke is, and always has been, a total rooster. He talked gonad*s when he was supposedly left wing and he talks even more gonad*s now. He’s as good an advert as there is for not taking drugs.
 
Not following US politics too much so will ask those more knowledgeable. Who is the next President in peoples opinions? Trump running again? Biden looking to frail and showing too many signs of poor mindset to retain?
 
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