• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

21 trillion pounds

Isn't what true? Anybody can live on £53 a week? Yes if you don't have to worry about rent, debts and bills. Are you seriously suggesting a family of say 3 could survive on that or am I missing something?

Anyone on that £53 per week would have social housing so you can take that out of the equation. Also, a family of 3 would have either 2 x £53 + 1 x Child support or 1 x £53 + 2 x child support.

Debts? Not sure why you're looking to shift the blame from the person that created that debt there. Bills? How much are truly essential bills going to cost once you strip out Sky, TV License, Gym membership, etc?
 
No the figure I refer to is £53 per week. That's inclusive of everything afaic when discussing the comment which was made so you can't start adding on to it now. Not how it works really is it?
 
The £53 a week was what one chap said he had to survive on from his benefits after paying rent and household bills (so it had to pay for food, travel etc).
 
The £53 a week was what one chap said he had to survive on from his benefits after paying rent and household bills (so it had to pay for food, travel etc).

Before I settled down I had, on several occasions, around £10 to survive the month on. That was due to the fact I gambled more than I should've but I've never been out of full time employment. I lived at home so had cooked meals etc to fall back on but I know how to survive on next to nothing something I imagine lots on here have never had to do.
 
The £53 a week was what one chap said he had to survive on from his benefits after paying rent and household bills (so it had to pay for food, travel etc).

If you're left with £53 a week after all essential bills are paid, that is easily do-able. I presume you would be time rich/cash poor, where people fall down is they haven't got an inkling of how to survive, it's not in their make up. They're time rich, but spunk it up the wall doing next to nothing.
 
This is the result of 30 years of "trickle-down economics" IMO.

I know I'm going to regret this but...

@ Richie, following on from our other economics discussion (I went on vacation btw), do you think the economic principles that you have been proposing are sustainable for the long-term future? It's plainly obvious for anyone of mine, or older, generations that the wealth gap between the top 1-2% and the majority of us has widened significantly over the past 30 years. Major corporations have become uncontrollable monsters, CEOs are making millions every year etc etc whilst consumer protections have been eroded and national levels of debt have gone through the roof. What is the end sum of these purely capitalist principles?
 
^^ by the above, I'm talking about applying the principles that you have been to the current economic situation.

By this I mean that we are not presently in a environment where the market is allowed to act on it's own without any outside interference, because there is plenty of influence such as tariffs, subsidies, tax breaks, legal protections etc mostly put in place by (corruptable) politicians. This isn't going to change any time soon IMO since politicians aren't in the business of giving up power and influence! So, ultimately I feel that although your diagnosis of pure free market principles is great on paper, in the real economic climate where there is plenty of outside interference, it is the Government's role to act in the best interests of all parties and a lot of people feel as though this is currently not the case. I'm stoned and rambling...
 
I urge you to read the report HMRC did on the effects of the 50p top rate of tax. I talks about Taxable Income Elasticity (TIE) and how the rich are able to move their money. Here is the link. You can ignore all the regression analysis (much of which I don't follow completely myself) and just read the introduction and conclusion. The basic gist is that the increase from 40% to 50% has raised at most £1bn more in the best case and cost the exchequer £1bn in the worse case.

I think the problem is that people don't realise the majority of this kind of effect isn't about British people trying to screw over Britain, it's about companies wanting to recruit the best people and pay competitively. Companies need to recruit the best from around the world, and they need to compete on an after-tax basis. This means that in high tax jurisdictions, they need to pay a higher salary just to give the employee the same after-tax income, which makes the company less competitive.

A large number of the executives getting paid the big money in this country are not British, or are working for companies who are not British. These people or companies have no allegiance to Britain, who why would they think twice about moving their headquarters to a different country?

The rise in tax was a political stunt to try and win votes before the election, Gordon Brown didn't care that it very feasibly cost the Treasury money in the short term and almost certainly will cost the government in the long term. A " highly distortionary form of taxation" as described by the HMRC report.

Oh, I agree about the last bit. I genuinely dislike the Conservatives, but Brown's last act on the top rate of taxation was done purely and solely to make the next government's job harder, since he knew the hatchet job he and later-years Tony had done with New Labour's image meant their re-election was extremely unlikely.

And thank you for the link, the HMRC report was quite interesting. I suspected that they would base a fair chunk of their analysis on a Laffer-curve argument, and my suspicions were confirmed.

However, this brings up an entirely new question. The migration of capital (and labour, as per the HMRC report) over the last twenty years, and the unprecedented capital mobility that has engendered, has meant that national borders are now effectively meaningless. If the taxation rate rises to a level that either the elites or the corporations find uncomfortable (i.e, exceeding the direct and indirect benefits they receive from being based within a certain country) they either store their assets in off-shore tax havens (and, in the cases of Starbucks et al, flat out refuse to pay taxes owed) or threaten to withdraw from the country entirely (a la Gerard Depardieu and his flight to Russia). Thus, corporations and the richer elements of society are threatening established governments around the world in order to increase their own profits and savings, in many cases while the country itself is in the midst of a financial recession. This forces governments to reduce taxes, and, since the rich now don't seem to invest money locally anyway, lose both direct and indirect revenue as a result. This means cutting welfare budgets and social security, leaving ever greater sections of poor society to suffer ever greater privations, all in order to keep what few wealthy people and companies that still pay taxes in the country.

If nationality truly means nothing in the modern world, then the rich and the corporations will continue using these threats to get ever greater tax breaks, forcing ever greater reductions in welfare and social services, which will increase popular anger and discontent. Eventually, either real wages will fall to a level that finally gets us competing with the likes of India and China (i.e, poverty level), or taxes will fall to make us a financial haven of our own. Ideally both, in the wealthy/big businesses' eyes. This process will only be exacerbated by the increasing extraction prices of oil and coal (if Jeff Rubin's 'The End of Growth' is to be believed).

The end result will be magnificent destruction, caused by this same capital and labour mobility that is destroying the concept of 'patriotism' and 'nationalism'. So is that a good thing?

IS stashing 21 trillion pounds of the world's wealth wherever taxes are low enough, leaving the 'parent' countries grappling with recessions and discontent, a good thing? One wonders at the foresight employed in that process.
 
Time is running out for tax evaders - Telegraph
The net is closing in on savers who have undeclared sums in offshore investments and bank accounts. Those who have savings in Switzerland could find the value of their deposits reduced by up to 41pc on May 31, when the tax authorities impose a withholding tax on British savers who have not fully disclosed their investments and paid all taxes due to HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC)... Britain's tax authorities estimate that they can squeeze £9bn out of illicit offshore accounts in the next five years.

The scale of offshore evasion came to light a decade ago, when a former bank employee of the LGT Bank in Liechtenstein stole records of 6,000 customers using the principality to avoid paying tax, and offered to sell this information to various national tax authorities. In 2008, the British Government is believed to have paid £100,000 for 100 names off the rich list, subsequently raising £100m in unpaid tax.

...Last month, 11 men, including a barrister, an accountant, directors of a film company and wine smugglers, were jailed for up to six years for tax fraud. This follows the recent imprisoning of two businessmen who lied about accounts held offshore in the Isle of Man. They ran a computer company for the car trade, and did a great deal of business with the German motor industry. These earnings were not declared, but were banked offshore. When questioned by HMRC, who were alerted by German tax officials, they declared one account, but concealed a further 10.

Europe gets serious over tax dodging - Business Analysis & Features - Business - The Independent
After Cyprus buckled under the weight of its massive bad debt and pundits started casting around for the next domino to fall, so many eyes turned to Luxembourg that the tiny landlocked state felt compelled to issue a terse statement rebuffing the comparisons. Despite few obvious parallels between the broke Mediterranean island and the wealthiest nation in the eurozone, they did have one crucial factor in common: a banking sector bloated by money from overseas investors attracted by low taxes, high interest rates and relatively few questions asked.

...The Prime Minister of Luxembourg – one of two countries which had been blocking a European Union-wide automatic data-sharing scheme – said on Wednesday that it would from 2015 start swapping personal bank account details of EU citizens, lifting the veil of secrecy that activists say attracted not only legitimate businesses but money launderers and criminals.

Intense pressure is now on Austria to also embrace the EU Savings Directive, which aims to detect and clamp down on tax evasion. It remains the only EU nation which has refused to swap data on its bank account holders... Switzerland has already signed agreements with Germany and the US to share banking information, and the Netherlands is expected later this year to clamp down on corporations using tax loopholes to set up subsidiaries and pay minimal tax.

...Luxembourg is the largest tax haven in the EU, with an estimated €2.1trn in its banks. That makes its banking sector 22 times the size of the tiny nation's economy. Cyprus, by contrast, had a banking sector about seven times its GDP, roughly the same ratio as Malta. For Luxembourg's approximately 500,000 citizens, the model has brought the highest per capita income in the EU. The Grand Duchy has insisted that questions about the sustainability of the model do not apply to it, claiming that the country's banking sector is secure.

But it is not just the sustainability of offshore banking which is stirring action in many countries. Tax dodging runs the gamut from downright illegal evasion, the morally grey area of avoidance, to the positively encouraged "optimisation". Consequently, for many it is not a question of whether it is legal or sustainable, but whether it is fair, especially as taxes for the ordinary European citizens soar as part of punishing austerity drives.
 
Governments putting their hands in to peoples bank accounts and grabbing their cash is going to do nothing to help the banking sector get back on to its feet.

When it comes to Luxembourg, I don't see how they can possibly justify it. As an EU citizen I am entitled to free movement of capital. If I choose to put my money in a Luxembourg bank, what gives them the right to take it? Same goes for if I decide to base my business there.

The whole fudging point of the EU is free movement of people and capital between member states.
 
Such a minefield, this.

On one hand it really does feel like theft, evasion of taxes that everyone else has to pay, and being more than happy to coin in the profits or gain money from the country without putting anything back. The privilege of wealth.

On the other, it's their money so why should they contribute more than they have to - same as anyone else, if you could pay less tax then you would. The law allows this, so... and I live in a country with no income tax, so who the fcuk am I to lecture anyone! One of the perks of being here is that I don't pay any taxes on my earnings and very little on my purchases. Except eating at restaurants and fast food places, which is as much a laziness tax as it is 'tourist tax'.

I feel much stronger about companies based elsewhere but operating in the UK than I do about personal wealth. Personal wealth is mostly due to success or hard work, or both, inherited or earned. Companies like Starbucks, or the major banks receive all the benefits of the UK market but are not contributing their fair share due to some loopholes. Again, though, as in the post above, the freedom of movement within the EU. I think Starbucks said they are subject to a different country's laws, maybe it was Holland?, because they are operated regionally - Europe as a whole - and their finances were not isolated in the UK. Seems like gonad*s, really.
 
With Amazon, there is a specific provision in an EU treaty which specifically states that businesses which are solely for storage and delivery (which is what Amazon UK is) are not subject to corporation tax in that country.

You have to pay tax in jurisdictions in which you have a "permanent establishment". Just look at the definition treaty with Luxembourg.

(3) The term `permanent establishment` shall not be deemed to include:

(a) the use of facilities solely for the purpose of storage, display or delivery of goods or merchandise belonging to the enterprise;

People think these companies are using loopholes, but the reality is that these situations were considered and the corporations are explicitly following treaties. It shouldn't even be considered tax avoidance.

Article on this from Forbes
 
Fair enough that wealthy individuals and companies can afford to hire accountants to legitimately minimise their tax bill, in which case they have nothing to hide from a more transparent banking system anyway. However it's clear that some of those using anonymous off shore accounts are either evading tax or did not earn the money legitimately in the first place, so if information sharing helps the authorities to recover some of these ill gotten gains than that's okay by me.

Super Rich Hide $21 Trillion Offshore, Study Says - Forbes
analysis, based on data from many sources including the Bank of International Settlements and the International Monetary Fund, indicates that enough money has left some developing countries since the 1970s to pay off all their debts to the rest of the world.

“The problem here is that the assets of these countries are held by a small number of wealthy individuals while the debts are shouldered by the ordinary people of these countries through their governments,” the report says. Money has especially flowed out of oil producing states. Some $700 billion has left Russia since the 1990s: $305 billion has flowed out of Saudi Arabia since the 1970s, and about the same amount from Nigeria.

Henry calculates that some 92,000 people, a thousandth of a percent of the world’s population, control $9.8 trillion, and that if all the $21 trillion that has been offshored earned 3% a year and were taxed at 30%, it would raise $188 billion in revenues, more than rich countries spend on aid to the developing world every year.
 
Back