ManCHEATER United - cycnicism on an industrial scale under Van Gaal?

[DublinSpur]

I thought United were pretty disgraceful at times during the game; and it did seem to be systematic, rather than just a handful of isolated incidents. This isn't entirely new to United, but it's certainly increased under van Gaal. I genuinely don't understand how Kane didn't get a penalty for Rooney's rugby-tackle. It was one of the most blatant pieces of foul play I've seen since that feckin Thierry Henry hand-ball. And that was just the worst incident of many.

You might say I'm only saying that because of my Spurs-tinted glasses. But I'll call out our players for it too. And I have to admit, when we beat Leicester I was obviously happy but I was also annoyed... with Vertonghen. He doesn't seem to know how to stick close to his man without pulling his shirt. Not only is it cynical, it's just plain bad defending. Half the time he does it, there's no bloody need for it as the attacking player is going nowhere. The rest of the time he's just inviting penalties. It's a real problem and it will lose us points over the course of a season if he doesn't cut it out.

As I say though, with United there's a sense that cynical and tactical fouling is an integral part of how they set out to play. And really, it's called the beautiful game for a reason... it's about skill, flow, speed and grace... who the hell wants to watch 22 highly paid men competing to commit the most niggly fouls without being caught by the ref?

 

[Raziel]

LVG is actually a fairly smart manager, it doesn't take much to understand the threat that Spurs poses

- Give us time/space/comfort on the ball and we will kill you
- Poch has got our defensive shape and work rate up

Counter

- Break up the game, foul, niggle, make the game messy
- Use long balls to try and get past our shape

Ugly, but you could see why, and that could almost be a compliment

 

[Spur of the moment]

I thought United were pretty disgraceful at times during the game; and it did seem to be systematic, rather than just a handful of isolated incidents. This isn't entirely new to United, but it's certainly increased under van Gaal. I genuinely don't understand how Kane didn't get a penalty for Rooney's rugby-tackle. It was one of the most blatant pieces of foul play I've seen since that feckin Thierry Henry hand-ball. And that was just the worst incident of many.

You might say I'm only saying that because of my Spurs-tinted glasses. But I'll call out our players for it too. And I have to admit, when we beat Leicester I was obviously happy but I was also annoyed... with Vertonghen. He doesn't seem to know how to stick close to his man without pulling his shirt. Not only is it cynical, it's just plain bad defending. Half the time he does it, there's no bloody need for it as the attacking player is going nowhere. The rest of the time he's just inviting penalties. It's a real problem and it will lose us points over the course of a season if he doesn't cut it out.

As I say though, with United there's a sense that cynical and tactical fouling is an integral part of how they set out to play. And really, it's called the beautiful game for a reason... it's about skill, flow, speed and grace... who the hell wants to watch 22 highly paid men competing to commit the most niggly fouls without being caught by the ref?

=D>

It seems a number of Spurs fans would indeed like to see us follow in United's nihilistic footsteps. When I get more time I will try to add a poll to gauge the percentage of fans on here want us to follow United in systematically adopting such tactics.

 

[Raziel]

=D>

It seems a number of Spurs fans would indeed like to see us follow in United's nihilistic footsteps. When I get more time I will try to add a poll to gauge the percentage of fans on here want us to follow United in systematically adopting such tactics.

That's because people confuse cheating with winning, and its not the same thing.

It's a fine line, but playing for a foul is not the same as diving, going hard for a 50/50 ball is not the same blatant fouling.

IIRC our best team (Bale/Modric/VDV era) was consistently one of the top "least fouls" teams in the league.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Think it may be a bit rose tinted glasses here - I went on their forum shortly after the game and they were disgusted with our thuggary - i.e. the Stambouli on Carrick, apparently a foul by Fazio prior to the Rooney thing - in general our thugishness.

I dont think either of us were bad.

 

[braineclipse]

Remember Krul at the World Cup penalty shootout?

Like this up in every opponent's face before each penalty.

Van Gaal has always been cynical imo. Nothing new.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Think it may be a bit rose tinted glasses here - I went on their forum shortly after the game and they were disgusted with our thuggary - i.e. the Stambouli on Carrick, apparently a foul by Fazio prior to the Rooney thing - in general our thugishness.

I dont think either of us were bad.

Actually Stambouli's tackle on Carrick was worse than Agbonlahor's red...

Maybe it's because we also get so much footie from Mediterranean countries but I find these types of posts quite amusing. This isn't thuggery or cynicism, it's gamesmanship and it's part of winning. Maybe this utopic view of playing the game is the reason we are ultimately footballing also-rans. No way should a club of Tottenham's stature have just two championships in its portfolio, the same as a Nottingham Forest. We dream the beautiful game, fawn over beautiful players and year after year when the chips are down, we come out as losers....

 

[Spur of the moment]

Actually Stambouli's tackle on Carrick was worse than Agbonlahor's red...

Maybe it's because we also get so much footie from Mediterranean countries but I find these types of posts quite amusing. This isn't thuggery or cynicism, it's gamesmanship and it's part of winning. Maybe this utopic view of playing the game is the reason we are ultimately footballing also-rans. No way should a club of Tottenham's stature have just two championships in its portfolio, the same as a Nottingham Forest. We dream the beautiful game, fawn over beautiful players and year after year when the chips are down, we come out as losers....

[h=2]gamesmanship[/h] noun
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[h=2][/h]the use of clever underhanded actions to achieve an endSynonyms artifice, chicane, chicanery, gamesmanship,hanky-panky, jiggery-pokery, jugglery, legerdemain,skulduggery (or skullduggery), subterfuge, wile
Related Words artfulness, caginess (also cageyness),craftiness, cunning, deviousness, foxiness, oiliness, shadiness, sharpness, shiftiness, shrewdness, slickness, slipperiness, slyness, sneakiness, treachery,underhandedness, wiliness; crookedness, crookery, cunning,deceit, deceitfulness, deception, deceptiveness, dishonesty, dissimulation, double-dealing, dupery, duplicity, guile, guilefulness, hypocrisy, insincerity, fakery, humbuggery, imposture, quackery, dirty pool, dirty tricks, design, plotting, scheming, secrecy, stealth



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[DubaiSpur]

How very sad.

Well, it is your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it. So fair enough.

Actually Stambouli's tackle on Carrick was worse than Agbonlahor's red...

Maybe it's because we also get so much footie from Mediterranean countries but I find these types of posts quite amusing. This isn't thuggery or cynicism, it's gamesmanship and it's part of winning. Maybe this utopic view of playing the game is the reason we are ultimately footballing also-rans. No way should a club of Tottenham's stature have just two championships in its portfolio, the same as a Nottingham Forest. We dream the beautiful game, fawn over beautiful players and year after year when the chips are down, we come out as losers....

Absolutely this. It is utterly baffling to me that people somehow want us to play like angels, turning the other cheek and refusing to use tactics 'beneath us' to win games, but then also want us to win trophies and titles.

Trophy-winners are ruthless. Ruthless, absolutely ruthless. I want us to win trophies, and be remembered for winning trophies relentlessly, an unstoppable force scoring at will on their way to titles and cups. I do not want us to fade away into absolute obscurity and only be remembered as quivering white sheets, doggedly pursuing a quixotic campaign against 'nasty gamesmanship' while sinking into the muck of mediocrity because we don't have the World XI it would take to stay at the top while also playing at being holier than thou.

Hell, there are probably people out there who also hate the idea of 'buying' success, in addition to their aforementioned beliefs about playing like angelic fairies on our rainbow-scented way to the title. To those idealists, I can truly say little beyond 'how on Earth does your thought process work?'

 

[Baleforce]

I think even that would be impossible DS, you couldn't find 11 players with that attitude good enough to win a pub league let alone the premier league, it's all part of a winning mentality, the two go hand in hand

 

[DubaiSpur]

I think even that would be impossible DS, you couldn't find 11 players with that attitude good enough to win a pub league let alone the premier league, it's all part of a winning mentality, the two go hand in hand

Absolutely, this too. I don't think you could find eleven players of the level required to win titles who all abhor a violation of the chivalric code of honor and thus won't resort to doing it: in many cases, the players we have now (and the ones at the top) got there by having a winning mentality, by doing whatever it took to get to the top by any means necessary. You tell them all to come to Spurs so they can limply lose to Stoke while following some ludicrous self-imposed moral code, and you'd be laughed out of the game.

 

[Cochise]

Liverpool did the same to us earlier in the season, constantly fouling Lamela before he could even get going, not big fouls just those little one's that a ref ignores. However let's not pretend we don't do similiar, I've seen Eriksen take down opponents when they have got away from him and are storming off on the counter, it's what the pundits now call a clever foul. I don't enjoy it and think that it spoils a game, but it's just become part of the game in nearly every country, it'll never be stopped.

One thing I will say is that I've yet to see us do it as systematically as UTD and Liverpool, we make the odd few here and there, but they tend to be sporadic as opposed to planned.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

[h=2]gamesmanship[/h] noun
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[h=2][/h]the use of clever underhanded actions to achieve an endSynonyms artifice, chicane, chicanery, gamesmanship,hanky-panky, jiggery-pokery, jugglery, legerdemain,skulduggery (or skullduggery), subterfuge, wile
Related Words artfulness, caginess (also cageyness),craftiness, cunning, deviousness, foxiness, oiliness, shadiness, sharpness, shiftiness, shrewdness, slickness, slipperiness, slyness, sneakiness, treachery,underhandedness, wiliness; crookedness, crookery, cunning,deceit, deceitfulness, deception, deceptiveness, dishonesty, dissimulation, double-dealing, dupery, duplicity, guile, guilefulness, hypocrisy, insincerity, fakery, humbuggery, imposture, quackery, dirty pool, dirty tricks, design, plotting, scheming, secrecy, stealth



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And your point is?

Do I want my team to be cagey, artful, craftful, cunning, shrewd, slick, deceptive, guile, plotting

YES

Because those are the team who WIN. The rest just make up excuses to cover their failures.

 

[braineclipse]

And your point is?

Do I want my team to be cagey, artful, craftful, cunning, shrewd, slick, deceptive, guile, plotting

YES

Because those are the team who WIN. The rest just make up excuses to cover their failures.

Most people have their limits on what they will want their team to do.

I'm guessing you do too? Or are you saying that everything is fine? Important enough game go ahead and bite someone to try to provoke a reaction that gets the other player sent off?

Many teams that fail and get relegated are also doing the kind of stuff you're talking about.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

What really does my head in is if we (or any other team) are getting the rough treatment and a player like say Lamela for instance, waves an imaginary yellow card after being hacked down it is frowned upon. So it is okay for them to dish out the heavy treatment but when we ask for protection it is seen as a bad trait, why is that?

 

[Kandi1977]

...
Young - crafty trip on the blindside of Townsend to prevent him latching onto a quality through ball from Eriksen. Nothing given.
...

Still can't believe how that was not given! Most obvious clear-cut foul of the game, and it should have been the end of Young. Very poor by the officials!

 

[Mumorn]

It's not just Van Gaal's United. There was one example under Fergie that I remember for the strategic cynicism, but not for the game (I forget which, sometime near/before the League Cup final). It followed a previous matchup where Lennon ran circles around Evra. It was Lennon at his best, sadly something we saw so inconsistently over the years, and Evra was unable to cope.

In this game the whole defence serially fouled Lennon in the early part of the game, spreading them out so the free-passes and yellows were spread around. They kicked him out of the game. Lennon never had another game where he showed up Evra. Either Evra worked him out or got the help he needed, but this particular game was one of the best examples of team effort to take out a player. Revie's Leeds would have been proud.

I don't agree with this. Everytime we played Utd and Lennon was up against Evra he would absolutely rip him apart.

 

[Modric THFC]

GHod I wish we'd play like that, I'm really enjoying LVG so far

Genius LVG is 2 points better off than 7 places finishing Moyes was at this stage last season after a net spend of 122m in the summer.

 

[90sSpursBook]

Man Utd and Chelsea are the worst for gamesmanship. It is premeditated and worked on in advance. Rooney questioned every decision and demanded our players cautioned and Terry will do this on Thursday. They take it in turns to speak to the ref - pub watch.

I usually feel that we behave well and must be an easy side to referee but this season I've noticed a difference and see that we are getting far more cynical. Ask a Villa or Hull fan when Benteke/Ramirez were sent off which ultimately went a long way to us winning those days.....did Mason, Lamela and Vertonghen act in a totally sporting manner on those occasions?

It seems endemic of being a great team that you have to have this edge to your game.

 

[Baleforce]

Genius LVG is 2 points better off than 7 places finishing Moyes was at this stage last season after a net spend of 122m in the summer.

he's good to watch though isn't he, he handles journalists brilliantly, his ability to treat everyone with equal disdain is highly enjoyable

**** from bbc: "Louis, can you give us a sense of your transfer window plans"

LvG: "no"