Andros Townsend

[Briddo1882]

Re: Official - Townsend

In this day and age, why can't you use a monkey in an anecdote or a metaphor?

What a bizarre comment.

I see Wenger has said 'you need to be careful what you say'. WHAT THE HELL IS THE WORLD COMING TO!?!?!??!!?

Not really......unless you are using the term in a manner to describe a persons colour. Then it is completely wrong. But why can't someone use a monkey as a metaphore?

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Official - Townsend

exactly right, but if someone offered him fries with a hamburger and he took that as a racial insult would that be reasonable?

to me it wouldnt be reasonable because you would expect chips with burgers.

if someone offered him the chips BECAUSE he was irish, then maybe it would be reasonable

this is where intent comes in...the monkey phrase wasnt used because twonsend was balck BUT someone can easily confuse that

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Official - Townsend

Not really......unless you are using the term in a manner to describe a persons colour. Then it is completely wrong. But why can't someone use a monkey as a metaphore?

I agree with you. That's what I'm saying.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Official - Townsend

have to apologise whoop whoop for not taking those insults with the same severity as it should be.

thats pretty bad and probably on par with the monkey comment

sorry about that

 

[treepits]

Re: Official - Townsend

The whole thing is such a non-story that the fact I'm reading through a thread about it during my lunch break makes me feel like I'm wasting my life!

The only reason it's become something is because of those with an agenda ie the sun selling papers or people like Peter Herbert who wants as much attention as possible. And unfortunately the player who leaked it who, I'm guessing, must be unhappy under the Roy regime

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Official - Townsend

from a white guy to a black guy?

always dangerous ground. blame the people that have used that for centuries as an insult to afro carribean race

Why? Why is it dangerous ground? It is absolutely ridiculous to me that it should be considered dangerous ground.

And I genuinely mean this, a player has to be absolutely thick as anything to think there is anything offensive in what Roy said, or anything intended that way. And if he's not thick because he took offence, he's certainly thick for running off to The Sun before talking to Roy, the squad, or the FA themselves first.

If this player is out there, he is a ****ing idiot.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Official - Townsend

whoa

then thats bad

if someone told whoop whoop to go fetch a potato or something motivational like that i wouldnt hold it against him or another irish person if they took offense

In this case it would be fair to assume it is meant as a slur, and although there are far worse things that could be said, an Irish person would take it as a slur. Whereas if he worked is Tesco's or on a potato farm that might be part of his job. Context.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Official - Townsend

Why? Why is it dangerous ground? It is absolutely ridiculous to me that it should be considered dangerous ground.

And I genuinely mean this, a player has to be absolutely thick as anything to think there is anything offensive in what Roy said, or anything intended that way. And if he's not thick because he took offence, he's certainly thick for running off to The Sun before talking to Roy, the squad, or the FA themselves first.

If this player is out there, he is a ****ing idiot.

and like i said if someone cant see how that could make a black person uncomfortable or anoyed that a monkey phrase was used to describe another black person then that person is ignorant. and quite frankly sheltered.

and i mean that also.

you should go out there and make a monkey joke to a black guy, infront of a group of black people..and when they give you they "hey, be sensitive man" look...not even "you ****ing racist ****" look. be sure to tell them that they are all ****ing idiots and they have no basis to feel that way. even if someon of them have had those phrases chanted at them on the way to school. Just cause you think its fine then it must be acceptable.

P.S:- you know the black guy you made the joke to. the two of you are close friends

 

[Cotswold]

Re: Official - Townsend

Its this sort of imbecilic reporting that detracts from the serious debate on racism. I don't even think it's ill-judged, let alone racist.
Townsend was there, was the subject of the conversation and didnt consider it racist. the suggestion that someone who wasnt there and didnt hear it can be insulted by it or find it racist (which is the implied criticism of RH) is absurd. The problem with this sort of 'story' is that people then develop a 'political correctness gone mad' attitude and in so doing might be more tolerant of what should be deemed in appropriate - an unintended backlash, in effect.
I feel sorry for Roy - he strikes me as a decent bloke who is probably pretty devastated by the suggestion that he would do or say something racist.

 

[Briddo1882]

Re: Official - Townsend

Also, this "Society of Black Lawyers" wading in with their 2p. Is that not THE most devisive name for an organisation? To me, that states that you can only be a member of their group if you're black (and a lawyer). Is that not predjudice against White Lawyers?

How about I set up the "Society for White Lawyers"? I am sure the Society for Balck Lawyers would be all over that one like a rash - For the record I personally hate all forms of bigotry, whether it is homophobia, racism or whatever. If I dislike an action of someone it is not because that person is black/white/asian/gay etc. it's because I dislike what they have done.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Official - Townsend

In this case it would be fair to assume it is meant as a slur, and although there are far worse things that could be said, an Irish person would take it as a slur. Whereas if he worked is Tesco's or on a potato farm that might be part of his job. Context.

explain the context of feeding the monkey and giving townsend the ball.

i agree that roy didnt mean it bad, but since you cant see how someone would take offense to it. play it out fo me..how does the conversation go at half time?

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Official - Townsend

Also, this "Society of Black Lawyers" wading in with their 2p. Is that not THE most devisive name for an organisation? To me, that states that you can only be a member of their group if you're black (and a lawyer). Is that not predjudice against White Lawyers?

How about I set up the "Society for White Lawyers"? I am sure the Society for Balck Lawyers would be all over that one like a rash - For the record I personally hate all forms of bigotry, whether it is homophobia, racism or whatever. If I dislike an action of someone it is not because that person is black/white/asian/gay etc. it's because I dislike what they have done.

they actually exist.

on a serious note, i agree with you about eh society of black lawyers thing. not their fan at all

actually in Brent council they have something called...black cancer care....now swomething like that makes no sense to me. quite clearly divisive. if there were whites only cancer care people would think we time travelled to the 60s

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Official - Townsend

explain the context of feeding the monkey and giving townsend the ball.

i agree that roy didnt mean it bad, but since you cant see how someone would take offense to it. play it out fo me..how does the conversation go at half time?

My point was there is little room for misinterpretation with the potato comment said in that manner. Whereas with the whole monkey joke thing, while no doubt not racially motivated, there is some room for misinterpretation. I'm sure was not intended to offend anyone and probably didn't either but in hindsight it was an ill advised comment by Roy. Nothing more nor less in my opinion.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Official - Townsend

and like i said if someone cant see how that could make a black person uncomfortable or anoyed that a monkey phrase was used to describe another black person then that person is ignorant. and quite frankly sheltered.

and i mean that also.

you should go out there and make a monkey joke to a black guy, infront of a group of black people..and when they give you they "hey, be sensitive man" look...not even "you ****ing racist ****" look. be sure to tell them that they are all ****ing idiots and they have no basis to feel that way. even if someon of them have had those phrases chanted at them on the way to school. Just cause you think its fine then it must be acceptable.

P.S:- you know the black guy you made the joke to. the two of you are close friends

Why exactly am I making this monkey joke to a black guy?

Again it comes back to in my opinion being more racist for assuming the joke is racist than actually telling the joke. Of course I am aware of what chants used to be made and what insults were thrown. But if someone can't tell a joke that isn't related whatsoever to those insults, just because a word is used, then it gets ridiculous. Unless the player in question has seriously thought that Roy's thought process was: 'This will be a great gag, I'm going to liken Andros to a monkey! I bet he was called that at school once or twice! That should rile him up for a bit in the second half!' or anything like that, then he has completely over-reacted and hasn't engaged his brain.

Because if we allow people to cry racism and get offended over any old thing, then we have no hope. There was no intent. It was a joke completely unrelated to racism, about space science.

 

[Cotswold]

Re: Official - Townsend

There is a significant difference between racism and a lack of racial awareness.
That said, I don't think Roy is guilty of either.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Official - Townsend

Look, I'm really not sure how anyone can even begin to say they don't see how the comment could be misinterpreted

An old white man (generally more racist generation), makes a comment to players about getting the ball to the black player, using the reference "feed the monkey" in a sport where monkey chants are and have been aimed at black players, including black English players in the recent past. If that is not a lack of racial awareness and general poor judgment, wtf is?

For me, it's a stupid comment (likely without racial intent) made by someone from a generation so completely disconnected from the current world.

I don't think any action needs to be taken and yes the media is going to make more of it than necessary, but defending RH and his "angry comments" are just stupid ...

 

[ringo]

Re: Official - Townsend

There are a number of difficult issues here.

My take on racism is that if the person genuinely feels offended by a comment that could be considered as pertaining to race, then prima facie it is a racist comment.
And the CPS supports this view: "A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."

Note this is not the same as a racist crime which needs to be "where the offender is motivated by hostility or hatred towards the victim's race or religious beliefs (actual or perceived)."


In this case given the slightly left field analogy used, the monkey being fed is Andros, who is apparently on record as saying that he was not offended.
However, according to the press someone else i.e. " any other person" was offended. And, therefore, it was a racist incident according to the CPS definition. The FA, on the other hand, are reported as saying no-one has expressed offence when questioned about the incident.

If they were offended it is sensible to ask, I think, why were they offended, were they genuinely offended, and was it reasonable to be offended.
I can't answer the first two, and I'm not sure who gets to decide that last one. I'm white, so am I the right person do decide what is and isn't reasonable in such an incident.

In common law there is doctrine known as the eggshell skull test, or you take your victim as you find them. if you negligently cause someone to be tapped over the head with a spoon and they happen to have a paper thin skull, and are seriously injured, tough. You are potentially liable for the full extent of the damages they suffered.

Roy may have used an apparently innocuous anecdote about monkeys in space, but if someone took offence, it is potentially a racist comment. Many people have come to Roy's defence to testify that he is not a racist. Which leaves us with a bad choice of anecdote selected in the heat of an English final qualifying match at particularly pressured moment for all concerned. I suspect Roy may be reappraising his list of anecdotes and analogies at this very moment.

So a complicated situation -- but also a fascinating insight into what happens in Roy's dressing room at half time.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Official - Townsend

Look, I'm really not sure how anyone can even begin to say they don't see how the comment could be misinterpreted

An old white man (generally more racist generation), makes a comment to players about getting the ball to the black player, using the reference "feed the monkey" in a sport where monkey chants are and have been aimed at black players, including black English players in the recent past. If that is not a lack of racial awareness and general poor judgment, wtf is?

For me, it's a stupid comment (likely without racial intent) made by someone from a generation so completely disconnected from the current world.

I don't think any action needs to be taken and yes the media is going to make more of it than necessary, but defending RH and his "angry comments" are just stupid ...

It wasn't just a 'comment' though was it? It was a joke. The context of the joke (space travel!!!!) was far different from what it would have been had he just been 'making a comment about passing the ball to a black player' and calling him a monkey.

And context is so important. If we are going to dispense with context then anyone can draw offence from anything.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Official - Townsend

Herbert told talkSPORT: "I think you need some outside oversight of what's happening...Kick it Out are in a delicate position in raising these issues.

"We will be putting in a formal complaint and would like a transcript of what investigation took place.

"You have to understand how justice works. We are talking about fairness and equality for all in football - that shouldn't be rocket science."

:ross:

 

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Official - Townsend

Look, I'm really not sure how anyone can even begin to say they don't see how the comment could be misinterpreted

An old white man (generally more racist generation), makes a comment to players about getting the ball to the black player, using the reference "feed the monkey" in a sport where monkey chants are and have been aimed at black players, including black English players in the recent past. If that is not a lack of racial awareness and general poor judgment, wtf is?

For me, it's a stupid comment (likely without racial intent) made by someone from a generation so completely disconnected from the current world.

I don't think any action needs to be taken and yes the media is going to make more of it than necessary, but defending RH and his "angry comments" are just stupid ...

That puts an old fart like me well and truly in my place then. :lol:

My mum GHod rest her soul was as racist as they come. Funny thing was she spent her life complaining bitterly about the way she felt the English always 'persecuted' her for being Irish, but had not the slightest compunction when in her nineties about racially abusing the magnificent staff who looked after her in the care home. To their enormous credit they just ignored her and cheerfully got on with the job.