**Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

[billyiddo]

This arguement again! Borussia Dortmund have nowhere near the budget of Bayern Munich, and yet they still won the Bundesliga two years running.

Once again some people don't wanna give Teflon Levy any stick whatsoever. It's fine blaming Arry for everything because he has a saggy face and is a ****ney wide boy who talks too much, but when it's Levy, the goalposts are moved. " it's not always black and white, why must we always find someone to blame." Ironic huh.

look mate i think we've been having a decent debate tonight - let's not start with the tired pro/anti gonad*s - play the ball, not the man etc

you know i'll defend Levy from what i consider unfair criticism - shouldn't really be such a surprise to you anymore.

as for Dortmund/Bayern - a league where there are two teams going for the title and then somewhat of a gap between the next tier isn't really comparable to our situation with Arsenal, in a league where there are 3 sides even bigger than them and only 4 CL places on offer (imagine if we'd had CL qualification 10 years out of the last 20 - you think we'd still not have finished behind them?) anyway, as i say - irrelevant comparison

 

[Spur of the moment]

I answered the question posed. It only referred to one side of the coin.

You chose to highlight matches we lost, in isolation, as though that was the only reason we failed to gain fourth (though we're not quite dead yet).


My point is it is facile to isolate particular games that went against us during the season without also acknowledging there were others when things went very much our way, games where the opposition could equally argue they could have prevented our win by cutting out an error.

At the end of the day we lost those games because we were not good enough, end of.

 

[Jordinho]

Eh? the point is everyone that has done those comparisons is not taking it on a season to season basis but nobody has ever been called up on it. Comparing results of previous seasons is pretty much the equivalant of looking at points total rather than looking at points total and saying "ah well the opposition improved".

I don't really get what you're trying to say.

I, because I enjoy it, compare the results we're getting to those from last season to see how we're doing. It's not an exact science, but it gives you an idea. In the end you have the total amount of points and comparing totals on a season-by-season basis shows how WE are doing.

What happens to other teams plays a part, like a dodgy oil billionaire or a transfer embargo, but if we finish this season with more points than last season we have improved. It's not a computer game where you can play against the same opponents over and over until you get it perfect, all team are in constant change with managers and players coming and going, injuries and suspensions. Any one off game means nothing as anything can happen, but when you have a large enough sample you can look for tendencies.

 

[braineclipse]

This arguement again! Borussia Dortmund have nowhere near the budget of Bayern Munich, and yet they still won the Bundesliga two years running.

Once again some people don't wanna give Teflon Levy any stick whatsoever. It's fine blaming Arry for everything because he has a saggy face and is a ****ney wide boy who talks too much, but when it's Levy, the goalposts are moved. " it's not always black and white, why must we always find someone to blame." Ironic huh.

Over the short term there will be variance, obviously. Teams over- and under-perform compared to their financial standing. You can probably find loads of individual examples.

Over the longer term there are clear correlations though.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmcumeds/792/79207.htm

Wages

80. It is important to note, as Figure 3 below shows, that there is a strong positive relationship between wage expenditure and league position. Other things being equal, spending more on wages translates into on-pitch success. Deloitte suggested that this impacts particularly on clubs in the middle—those aiming either to close the gap on the clubs above them or to retain their Premier League status.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/12/soccernomics-was-wrong-why-transfer-expenditures-matter/http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/12/soccernomics-was-wrong-why-transfer-expenditures-matter/

The regression plot demonstrates that nearly 70% of the variability (quite a good value given the sample size) between finish position and squad cost is explained by the relationship:

Average Finish Position = -7.2221*(MSq£) + 18.32

So, in short, yes "this argument again". Because the evidence is actually pretty clear and obvious. No amount of individual anecdotes like Dortmund beating Bayern two years in a row is going to change that.

 

[Spursalot]

Dortmund finishing above Bayern is equivalent to us finishing above Liverpool and Chelsea last season.

The problem with our league is that there are FIVE clubs with far more financial resources and wages than us, whereas Dortmund only have to deal with one behemoth. The infinite money of Chelsea and City and essentially United means that three spots are already taken, leaving Arsenal, us, and Liverpool competing for one position. Out of those three we pay the lowest wages and have the smallest record transfer (can you imagine have 20m+ to spend on three different players each, much less 35m???).

So...you can see we're up against it. Massively. If Dortmund can transfer to our league and still get in the top four, I can only hold my hands up and applaud them. But I highly doubt if they can.

That is what i thought might be the case, but i wasn't sure. Cheers Skyfarer.


We are massively up against it financially, which is what makes me proud of the team. We are still managing to find and buy players that are good enough, we have a manager that is getting a lot out of them and players who are helping us challenge for that fourth spot.

 

[Jurgen the German]

look mate i think we've been having a decent debate tonight - let's not start with the tired pro/anti gonad*s - play the ball, not the man etc

you know i'll defend Levy from what i consider unfair criticism - shouldn't really be such a surprise to you anymore.

as for Dortmund/Bayern - a league where there are two teams going for the title and then somewhat of a gap between the next tier isn't really comparable to our situation with Arsenal, in a league where there are 3 sides even bigger than them and only 4 CL places on offer (imagine if we'd had CL qualification 10 years out of the last 20 - you think we'd still not have finished behind them?) anyway, as i say - irrelevant comparison

Look, I accept we aren't as rich as Arsenal or Chelsea, and being a Spurs fan today is great compared to 10 years ago.

But when some of the players that Levy has bought are not good enough and we miss out on the CL, I do not consider that unfair criticism. I think it's pretty obvious AVB doesn't always get the final say in the transfers.

 

[Spursalot]

Look, I accept we aren't as rich as Arsenal or Chelsea, and being a Spurs fan today is great compared to 10 years ago.

But when some of the players that Levy has bought are not good enough and we miss out on the CL, I do not consider that unfair criticism. I think it's pretty obvious AVB doesn't get 100% say in the transfers.

You have a valid point. The only objection i can give was that Ade looked good enough last season, and for £5m the vast majority of us would have been happy to have him.


I can't see fault with the rest of the players we have bought in. We have done well without that consistent striker.

 

[Jordinho]

I wouldn't really mind if we sold Bale for £50+ million and used every last pence of it to help fund the stadium. A bigger stadium doesn't guarantee anything, but it will help and I feel very little attachment to any individual player any more. The club and the team is what matters and I'm very happy that Levy is playing the long game.

 

[Spurs7891]

It is going to be really funny seeing Swansea and Wigan in Europa League next season. Can see them both throwing away all matches by fielding reserve teams. As FA Cup winner, Wigan will get direct entry into Group stage and forced to play 6 matches. It must be the first time ever a relegated team from PL, forced to play so many matches in Europe.:ross:

 

[Jordinho]

It is going to be really funny seeing Swansea and Wigan in Europa League next season. Can see them both throwing away all matches by fielding reserve teams. As FA Cup winner, Wigan will get direct entry into Group stage and forced to play 6 matches. It must be the first time ever a relegated team from PL, forced to play so many matches in Europe.:ross:

Birmingham had to qualify, but they didn't do too badly. Shame that their succession of two-bob owners can't do anything right.

 

[Kingdawson]

"looking at league positions" that was meant to read.

I think peoples main argument about this whole points total malarky is that we've improved but we can't help what the opposition do (spend loads etc etc etc). If that's the case then how exactly does a comparison of results (this season to last) give you an idea of how we're doing when you're saying we can't help what the opposition have done.


*We can't compare our results against Chelski this season to last season because they've improved heavily.
* We can't compare our results against Liverpool this season to last season because they spent loads.
* we can't compare Man united because they have RVP now.


etc etc etc. I mean if you're saying we have to look at points total above league position because our opposition have improved drastically then how exactly can you contribute in threads where you compare our results this season vs previous results...it's hypocritical.

 

[DHSF]

Im still trying to figure out (playing stupid here although im sure I know why) why last seasons lead give away is and was a bigger disaster than this year? Last year it was because the Arse had RVP etc this year it is? oh yeah Chelscum run and Arses run... excuses excuses.

Im not that upset about not finish fourth and CL places then again im actually losing interest and dont really care if Arse finish above us every season as long as we achieve our objectives which im sure is to finish in the CL places. Wondering what the reason will be next year though.

There is a great deal of discussion about Arse blah blah blah - you have only got to read this forum to realise that there seems to be a lot more interest in other clubs than in our own which is a joke(generalisation but from some). I dont care about Arse I dont care about Manure I dont care about Chelscum et all... only Spurs really. If my next door neighbour brought a Ferrari do you think id go out and buy a lambo just to get ahead? I couldnt care less what he does and whether he is better or bigger than me as long as im achieving what I wanna achieve.

We shouldnt really compare ourselves constantly against Arse etc because we are just beating ourselves with a stick in that case.

Its a bit of a rant so apologies but fudge it

 

[jimmyb]

Dortmund finishing above Bayern is equivalent to us finishing above Liverpool and Chelsea last season.

The problem with our league is that there are FIVE clubs with far more financial resources and wages than us, whereas Dortmund only have to deal with one behemoth. The infinite money of Chelsea and City and essentially United means that three spots are already taken, leaving Arsenal, us, and Liverpool competing for one position. Out of those three we pay the lowest wages and have the smallest record transfer (can you imagine have 20m+ to spend on three different players each, much less 35m???).

So...you can see we're up against it. Massively. If Dortmund can transfer to our league and still get in the top four, I can only hold my hands up and applaud them. But I highly doubt if they can.

Very good point.

 

[Kingdawson]

I wouldn't really mind if we sold Bale for £50+ million and used every last pence of it to help fund the stadium. A bigger stadium doesn't guarantee anything, but it will help and I feel very little attachment to any individual player any more. The club and the team is what matters and I'm very happy that Levy is playing the long game.

You sound brainwashed.

 

[Mumorn]

What if Arsenal win 2-1 at the weekend and Chelsea draw 0-0?.. they'd both be on the same goal difference and goals for?.. would there be a play off? or would Arsenal be 3rd because there name begins with A?

 

[Spursalot]

I wouldn't really mind if we sold Bale for £50+ million and used every last pence of it to help fund the stadium. A bigger stadium doesn't guarantee anything, but it will help and I feel very little attachment to any individual player any more. The club and the team is what matters and I'm very happy that Levy is playing the long game.

That's crazy talk.

 

[Kingdawson]

Im still trying to figure out (playing stupid here although im sure I know why) why last seasons lead give away is and was a bigger disaster than this year? Last year it was because the Arse had RVP etc this year it is? oh yeah Chelscum run and Arses run... excuses excuses.

Im not that upset about not finish fourth and CL places then again im actually losing interest and dont really care if Arse finish above us every season as long as we achieve our objectives which im sure is to finish in the CL places. Wondering what the reason will be next year though.

There is a great deal of discussion about Arse blah blah blah - you have only got to read this forum to realise that there seems to be a lot more interest in other clubs than in our own which is a joke(generalisation but from some). I dont care about Arse I dont care about Manure I dont care about Chelscum et all... only Spurs really. If my next door neighbour brought a Ferrari do you think id go out and buy a lambo just to get ahead? I couldnt care less what he does and whether he is better or bigger than me as long as im achieving what I wanna achieve.

We shouldnt really compare ourselves constantly against Arse etc because we are just beating ourselves with a stick in that case.

Its a bit of a rant so apologies but fudge it

Great post.

 

[onlyme]

We are massively up against it financially, which is what makes me proud of the team. We are still managing to find and buy players that are good enough, we have a manager that is getting a lot out of them and players who are helping us challenge for that fourth spot.

We have improved this season. The losses in the cups last season were down to a shoddy selection policy whereas this year they were down to individual errors. This season we will achieve at least the same amount of points as last term and probably more which will be a record.

We are virtually unbeatable and top sides fear playing us. We are currently on a run of form which will guarantee us top 4 next season if it continues and I am confident it will.

We will win the Europa (if we are in it) next year and if we get top 4 we will not flop out of the ECL or go 3-0 down in games as we did under HR.

I am very happy about being a Spurs fan whatever happens on the last day.

 

[DHSF]

I wouldn't really mind if we sold Bale for £50+ million and used every last pence of it to help fund the stadium. A bigger stadium doesn't guarantee anything, but it will help and I feel very little attachment to any individual player any more. The club and the team is what matters and I'm very happy that Levy is playing the long game.

So we use every last penny of it on the stadium then what? What use will a big grand stadium be if we do not have a team. Its the chicken and the egg

 

[indianspur]

who would have thought that since the NLD Arse would have got 23 pts from a potential 27 pts??? its just phenomenal, just like Wengers Arse finishing above Spurs for every season he has been here

GHod is a gooner, what the fcuk else is there to say