Let's accept it and move on

[El Guepardo]

For once I'm happy that we have an International break. There is time for the players to take a break, for the scrutiny and pressure to go and for AVB to have a think to see if he can identify what has gone so badly wrong over the last 9 months.

I hope AVB proves to be good but I don't know if he will. I will give him time but we MUST be top 6 and showing serious signs of progression or the players and us supporters will lose faith and then it will be very hard for AVB to win anyone around especially after his Chelsea failings.

We do need to put the past behind us, move on and push hard as a team, including us supporters getting behind the team and not booing whenever we don't get our own way, and let us hope these are merely early stumbling steps on the journey to big successes.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You choose what you see I guess. As for making generalized statements you are hardly the model of specificity. Personally I think the talk of AVB and his 'system' is ridiculous - not even sure you or anyone knows what that means. It is used as an excuse to mask some highly questionable decision-making and a stubborness on display throughout last season. I will give him time, we have no choice in any case. But not sure how the comparison with his immediate predecessor is so irrelevant considering the comparisons others are making.

Im not saying it irrelevant - Im saying its trouble making.

You would need to be blind to not have seen the damage to this board the Redknapp/Stay/Go/AVB debate had.

Im saying it is also trouble making to set up a false front to argue against, knowing full well it fits only a sever minority of posters. Again, playing on the split.

Such as, no one (that I have seen) has even said AVB is a tactical genius. Just a more tactically rigid/focused manager than Harry. That in itself can be either a good or bad thing, all Im saying is why not wait and see before stirring the pot?

AVBs questionable elements have been discussed to death, when he was at Chelsea, when Chelsea sacked him and when he came in. To keep pressing the issue is to again play on the ill feeling it creates.

What is relevant is where Spurs are now. Which is embarking on a new direction with a new man leading the way. So far he hasnt even got the ship out of dry dock and people are trying to hang him from the main sail.

You keep saying how you will support him and give him time, yet virtually every post you have is tinged with negativity - it betrays that perhaps you wont be supportive at all.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Everyone knows about the 4 in 15 because people like you would not let anyone forget it. But broaden it to a more macro context and Harry's success was 4th 5th 4th. Needed the results to get those positions.

"People like me" funny that. It was a long, long time before I came down on either side of the great Harry debate. And even then I was and am a fan of much of what he did and how he did it.

That collapse was a massive failing IMO. 4th is great, but in the context of running away with 3rd is surely isnt. To coin your phrase, you choose what you see I guess

 

[DubaiSpur]

What I really do not get is the first statement and I have heard it so so much. Why after finishes of 4th, 5th, 4th are we now in a transitional season?????

With a good young squad and a good recent record we should be looking to build and move forward, why transition??

OK Modric wanted to leave and VDV was "homesick" so surely any club with ambition would look to replace those two players with guarenteed quality to retain the clubs recent standing in the league and fulfill not only the fans but the clubs ambitions???? Not only that I would I argue on the playing front that after another 4th finish, we should not have just been looking to replace like for like but ADD to the squad and push on.

We have gone from a club that pushed the top teams and thrilled for most of the season last year to a club in transition?? I just really do not get it on ounce I truly do not.

There is and was no need for it, we have gone backwards for what reasons??

We have gone backwards for the simple reason that we have a stadium to build that will consume nearly all of our attention and resources, and while doing so will need to keep the team competitive under a young manager who will be likely to be around for the long-term.

There was a very real need for it. Funneling resources to the first team, ballooning the wage bill, paying massive transfer fees....if we expected all these things to happen independent of the stadium build, based on a few optimistic promises Levy made pre-financial crisis four years ago, then we need to adjust that view.

Simply put, AVB is the cheap, long-term option who could also be a very shrewd appointment given time. He'll keep the wage bill down, and, once the team gels, will keep us competitive at the least, with the possibility of success should he get enough backing from the stands and from the chairman.

Replacing Modric and VdV with 'guaranteed' quality was never, ever the aim. Replacing them with cheaper signings with the potential to become Modric and VdV-like was. Backwards for the moment, forwards for the future, if you will.

As a clincher, we have already established that we are run entirely on our own finances. Where would the money come from for a Champions League wage-bill, given that we do not have Champions-League revenues?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Nayim, you are a very good poster in general but what you are saying is a classic example of the rheotoric that is posted by people who are just glad that Harry is gone, regardless of how successful we were under him and how bad we look now.

Some people just don't want to admit that Levy has dropped a gonad*.

I will very happily admit that Levy has dropped a gonad*. Tell me, is 3 games long enough to wait before committing to that?

I post about the new manager and the situation the club is in. IMO a reasonable view is to realise the change afoot and opt for patience.

The constant references back to Harry, the accusations of revisionism (while partaking of it at the same time) and the groaning and digging at the manager - as well as attempts at referencing/reigniting the Harry split - lead me to think some people WANT negativity, WANT a lack of patience, and honestly, WANT the moon on a f*cking stick

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

In the two seasons we came 4th, particularly last season - we were amazingly consistent in the first half of the season and played attractive football. Only due to the exceptional points tally of the two manchester clubs last season, we would have been top at xmas.

What about the second half of the last two seasons?

 

[Raziel]

That collapse was a massive failing IMO. 4th is great, but in the context of running away with 3rd is surely isnt. To coin your phrase, you choose what you see I guess

Nayim, the collapse was great and he paid for it with his job.

That said his results were 4th, 5th, 4th and you have people saying 10th is acceptable? because what?

If we are 10th in December, AVB probably won't last the season.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

For once I'm happy that we have an International break. There is time for the players to take a break, for the scrutiny and pressure to go and for AVB to have a think to see if he can identify what has gone so badly wrong over the last 9 months.

I hope AVB proves to be good but I don't know if he will. I will give him time but we MUST be top 6 and showing serious signs of progression or the players and us supporters will lose faith and then it will be very hard for AVB to win anyone around especially after his Chelsea failings.

We do need to put the past behind us, move on and push hard as a team, including us supporters getting behind the team and not booing whenever we don't get our own way, and let us hope these are merely early stumbling steps on the journey to big successes.

I think thats perfectly fair.

One question - your reference to top 6 - when is that? At the end of the season (as in, for you, AVB has the season to get it right) or before?

 

[marcospur2]

Im not saying it irrelevant - Im saying its trouble making.

You would need to be blind to not have seen the damage to this board the Redknapp/Stay/Go/AVB debate had.

Im saying it is also trouble making to set up a false front to argue against, knowing full well it fits only a sever minority of posters. Again, playing on the split.

Such as, no one (that I have seen) has even said AVB is a tactical genius. Just a more tactically rigid/focused manager than Harry. That in itself can be either a good or bad thing, all Im saying is why not wait and see before stirring the pot?

AVBs questionable elements have been discussed to death, when he was at Chelsea, when Chelsea sacked him and when he came in. To keep pressing the issue is to again play on the ill feeling it creates.

What is relevant is where Spurs are now. Which is embarking on a new direction with a new man leading the way. So far he hasnt even got the ship out of dry dock and people are trying to hang him from the main sail.

You keep saying how you will support him and give him time, yet virtually every post you have is tinged with negativity - it betrays that perhaps you wont be supportive at all.

I was not posting on this board during that debate so the use of the word 'blind' betrays your own lack of vision (I was working on a big project but was a member here). But ultimately you are (perhaps purposefully) misreading my motivation, bestowing a negativity upon them more to substantiate your view than anything else. I just do not see how those discussions to which you refer should be shut down in the context of what we saw today. Is it excessively micro in its focus in that it will be bestter to make firm judgements in say 6mths time? Probably yes. But that is not the nature of debate around football. Does it mean though that I am seeking to 'hang him from the mail sail' (and what a generalization you are making there about people)? No it does not. And moreover, rather than question my motive have a look at the references to HR and the associated debates across this board. You will find it is not specific to me even if you wish to present it in such terms, again that is your free choice.

On the final point that is factually untrue, albeit a clever inversion of phrasing on your part. Ultimately you are missing the point of what I am saying.

 

[marcospur2]

"People like me" funny that. It was a long, long time before I came down on either side of the great Harry debate. And even then I was and am a fan of much of what he did and how he did it.

That collapse was a massive failing IMO. 4th is great, but in the context of running away with 3rd is surely isnt. To coin your phrase, you choose what you see I guess

I also agreed it was a failing and disappointing even if I was not posting regulalry here due to other commitments. So on that, at least, we share common ground.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Nayim, the collapse was great and he paid for it with his job.

That said his results were 4th, 5th, 4th and you have people saying 10th is acceptable? because what?

If we are 10th in December, AVB probably won't last the season.

I may have misunderstood him, but the single poster who said that was, IMO, saying he is willing to take a step back if it looks like then taking two steps forward.

Personally I think 10th would be a disaster, but IMO he was just laying a marker for reducing pressure/expectation on the situation.

Obviously I could have completely miss read that :lol:

 

[El Guepardo]

I think thats perfectly fair.

One question - your reference to top 6 - when is that? At the end of the season (as in, for you, AVB has the season to get it right) or before?

By the end of the season but the longer the recovery takes, the harder the recovery will be to both achieve and to sustain. Player's heads will drop if we are still bottom half at Christmas and its hard to lift them unless like Redknapp you excel with people skills. AVB is more of a tactician and that won't always provide the answers.

Ideally we need a win against Reading on our next outing and hope that that gives us a prolonged change in fortune. I used the last 9 months as the problems belong, in part, to the end of last season, these problems aren't new to AVB alone.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I will very happily admit that Levy has dropped a gonad*. Tell me, is 3 games long enough to wait before committing to that?

I post about the new manager and the situation the club is in. IMO a reasonable view is to realise the change afoot and opt for patience.

The constant references back to Harry, the accusations of revisionism (while partaking of it at the same time) and the groaning and digging at the manager - as well as attempts at referencing/reigniting the Harry split - lead me to think some people WANT negativity, WANT a lack of patience, and honestly, WANT the moon on a f*cking stick

No, people do want him to succeed, but you have to understand, people are rightly tinkled off with the decision to get rid of the last manager. It's been compounded by the start we've had. If we had been playing well then fine, but the performances on the whole have been dire bar some good spells in the first 2 games.

I'll give him time. He deserves at least a season, but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to be annoyed at the start we've had.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I was not posting on this board during that debate so the use of the word 'blind' betrays your own lack of vision (I was working on a big project but was a member here). But ultimately you are (perhaps purposefully) misreading my motivation, bestowing a negativity upon them more to substantiate your view than anything else. I just do not see how those discussions to which you refer should be shut down in the context of what we saw today. Is it excessively micro in its focus in that it will be bestter to make firm judgements in say 6mths time? Probably yes. But that is not the nature of debate around football. Does it mean though that I am seeking to 'hang him from the mail sail' (and what a generalization you are making there about people)? No it does not. And moreover, rather than question my motive have a look at the references to HR and the associated debates across this board. You will find it is not specific to me even if you wish to present it in such terms, again that is your free choice.

On the final point that is factually untrue, albeit a clever inversion of phrasing on your part. Ultimately you are missing the point of what I am saying.

What is the point of what you are saying? Spell it out to me.

I am not trying to twist your posts at all, I am trying to reflect how they appear. Perhaps that is a failing in how you present yourself, or a failing in how I am reading them. The point of discussion is to find out which.

If you would like me to substantiate any views, perhaps feel I havent done well enough to date, feel free top ask me a direct question - I will answer as well as I can.

I certainly hope my last point is factually untrue. I hope that it is untrue for all Spurs fans - I can only say what I see - and so far what I see is a lot of talk tinged with negativity from you.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

By the end of the season but the longer the recovery takes, the harder the recovery will be to both achieve and to sustain. Player's heads will drop if we are still bottom half at Christmas and its hard to lift them unless like Redknapp you excel with people skills. AVB is more of a tactician and that won't always provide the answers.

Ideally we need a win against Reading on our next outing and hope that that gives us a prolonged change in fortune. I used the last 9 months as the problems belong, in part, to the end of last season, these problems aren't new to AVB alone.

Again, perfectly fair IMO.

Im basically in the "see how it goes" camp. And also the "its really far to early to judge" camp.

If by Christmas things are looking positive then great, if not then questions need to be asked...

 

[Raziel]

Again, perfectly fair IMO.

Im basically in the "see how it goes" camp. And also the "its really far to early to judge" camp.

If by Christmas things are looking positive then great, if not then questions need to be asked...

Agreed, but it's as expected, the concern with AVB was always going to be, he won't get the luxury of time.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

No, people do want him to succeed, but you have to understand, people are rightly tinkled off with the decision to get rid of the last manager. It's been compounded by the start we've had. If we had been playing well then fine, but the performances on the whole have been dire bar some good spells in the first 2 games.

I'll give him time. He deserves at least a season, but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to be annoyed at the start we've had.

A loss and two draws. One dire performance (apparently, didnt see todays game) and two ultimately disappointing results but with positives to be taken (especially with the window open, and the squad incomplete).

If people werent so consistently trying to keep the Harry flame burning I genuinely believe there wouldnt be so much negativity as there is now.

I well appreciate people being upset or even aggrieved at Redknapps sacking. I was much the same when Hoddle went and bloody Pleat took over! However, I also think as there is nothing to be done about it - perhaps people should drop it for now? Actually give the new guy a chance, some positive vibes, and revisit the situation when we actually have the basis for proper comparison?

 

[parklane1]

Judging a new manager on three results is madness, our we allowed to say its knee jerk because that is exactly what it is. We have played three games and in two of them we were the better team, i still believe we will be in the running for the top four and will wait until at least Xmas before jumping on a bandwagon.

 

[T Bone]

We're in transition whether you like it or not.

New manager, new system, new players. Not just the odd one or two additions to the squad but a whole new spine.
Lloris, Veertonghan, Dembele, Siggs, Dempsey - in other words, the defence has changed, the midfield and forward positions.

Sure top 4 is where we should be, but then so should City, United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Everton.
Newsflash: We all can't be there.

And nobody and I mean NOBODY has had the changes we're currently experiencing in that particular group. Every single one of those teams has some degree of stability and consistency with last season. Except us. Liverpool to a lesser extent.

Maybe 10th was a tad pessimistic. But I'm not setting my heights any higher than 8th.

 

[billyiddo]

But a summer clear out was still achieved, we got rid of the deadwood pretty easily to be honest. Ok Modric and VDV was talent we did not want to lose but as I say we could have and should have replaced like for like.

We arent in a position to replace players like Rafa and Modric like for like in terms of ability- that would have been the true no matter who was in charge