Dele Alli

[StephenH]

It's been three league games since then. Would be great if improvement was linear, but it rarely is.

I'll take these performances as our poor performances all day every day. If this is what we see for the rest of the season we'll be in trouble. Let's give it some time before we jump to conclusions.

yes I agree but crowing that we are second in league and the only way is up! As Yazz would sing is not even close

 

[billyiddo]

I agree that they will, rightly or wrongly. I think that discussion has been had.

Either way it's been slightly less than a year and we're 8 league games into his first full season.

The improvement has been clear for all to see. I think more improvement is coming. I don't think that's unreasonable. And I don't think it's unreasonable to at the very least withhold judgement given what's been going on so far and the starting point.

Are you making the argument that a year in to his time with us is on the short side for appraisal? 3 years is usually all you get with Jose so that puts us a third of the way in and asides from a breif run of games recently (bolstered by a couple of EL routs) it's been fairly tame stuff - i live in hope he finds a better balance because i don't accept that we should sacrifice so much attacking intent in order to be defensively sound.

*the big plus has been the incredible work done in the market over the summer*

I appreciate though that he is a pragmatic, safety first(?) manager and prior to the last run of games i was quite upbeat about our prospects so maybe i just have to accept after conceding 3 goals we're going to go in to our shell for a bit.

 

[braineclipse]

yes I agree but crowing that we are second in league and the only way is up! As Yazz would sing is not even close

It's a strange season. There are reasons for that. Everyone looks inconsistent. Everyone has flaws.

I'd have taken our current situation with glee and joy if offered a year ago. Or in the summer. There will be bumps, there will be poor runs. We have a ridiculous fixture list coming up and most likely both the gap to the top will increase and we'll drop down the table.

I'm fine with all of that and being happy about where we currently are.

 

[StephenH]

It's a strange season. There are reasons for that. Everyone looks inconsistent. Everyone has flaws.

I'd have taken our current situation with glee and joy if offered a year ago. Or in the summer. There will be bumps, there will be poor runs. We have a ridiculous fixture list coming up and most likely both the gap to the top will increase and we'll drop down the table.

I'm fine with all of that and being happy about where we currently are.

I’m chuffed with being second don’t worry about that, thrilled!
But when watching us in the last three outings I feel totally lacking in optimism!
But yes loved H grabbing 3points!

 

[braineclipse]

Are you making the argument that a year in to his time with us is on the short side for appraisal? 3 years is usually all you get with Jose so that puts us a third of the way in and asides from a breif run of games recently (bolstered by a couple of EL routs) it's been fairly tame stuff - i live in hope he finds a better balance because i don't accept that we should sacrifice so much attacking intent in order to be defensively sound.

I appreciate though that he is a pragmatic, safety first(?) manager and prior to the last run of games i was quite upbeat about our prospects so maybe i just have to accept after conceding 3 goals we're going to go in to our shell for a bit.

Appraisal, sure. By my estimation we're much improved in that year.

We're inconsistent both in terms of performances and results to some extent. Which is to be expected.

This is his first full season, but because he had so much of last season it's kind of a hybrid between first and second season. If we judge this based on being his second season, fine by me.

We quite simply don't know how the last three games will be viewed when we evaluate the season later on. Has it been the start of what will be the norm after a surprising open attacking start? Or will this kind of performances be close to a new low with many much better performances at other times? Or will we look back at this as the highest point of the season before the real doldrums set in?

These kinds of runs should be expected in all cases apart from a record beating season reminiscent of Liverpool and City in recent years, or a complete travesty 2 points from 8 games season. We're not in either of those timeliness. Time will tell which timeline we're actually in. Hence too early to judge.

Expectations matter when assessing. If a run like this wasn't expected I think expectations need assessment more than our performances.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

yes but we still looked shaky and vulnerable. We not keeping clean sheets by defending well!
Burnley, Brighton and WBA are poor and it’s why they are the bottom but we struggled.

We defended really well IMO
Hence why they didn’t score 3 goals against us like they did vs Chelsea for example

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And losing badly to Everton.

TBF we went match fit and the whole squad had been away on internationals
We would beat them 9/10 times IMO like for like

 

[billyiddo]

Appraisal, sure. By my estimation we're much improved in that year.

We're inconsistent both in terms of performances and results to some extent. Which is to be expected.

This is his first full season, but because he had so much of last season it's kind of a hybrid between first and second season. If we judge this based on being his second season, fine by me.

We quite simply don't know how the last three games will be viewed when we evaluate the season later on. Has it been the start of what will be the norm after a surprising open attacking start? Or will this kind of performances be close to a new low with many much better performances at other times? Or will we look back at this as the highest point of the season before the real doldrums set in?

These kinds of runs should be expected in all cases apart from a record beating season reminiscent of Liverpool and City in recent years, or a complete travesty 2 points from 8 games season. We're not in either of those timeliness. Time will tell which timeline we're actually in. Hence too early to judge.

Expectations matter when assessing. If a run like this wasn't expected I think expectations need assessment more than our performances.

Undoubtedly better now than a year ago, both in terms of performances and in squad make up. But let's be fair that is a low point of reference. I think on paper our squad is as good any outside of Liverpool/City and our aims for the season need to be suitably high as a result. Jose is a manager with a great reputation and has never needed long to get things moving his way - expectations at Spurs need to move beyond that of the plucky under dog.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Undoubtedly better now than a year ago, both in terms of performances and in squad make up. But let's be fair that is a low point of reference. I think on paper our squad is as good any outside of Liverpool/City and our aims for the season need to be suitably high as a result. Jose is a manager with a great reputation and has never needed long to get things moving his way - expectations at Spurs need to move beyond that of the plucky under dog.

Out of curiosity where do you see their squad being better than ours ?
I personally think ours is the best in the league because apart form a few players the drop off in quality with back ups isn’t as bad as other teams IMO (Kane and PEH).

when I look at the depth at city and pool their key players are class as we know but their depth isn’t all that IMO. Pool only yesterday had to bring Milner in at right back for example and their other cover is Gomez or a youth player
City haven’t had a striker all season despite buying so much talent. We arguably have 4 now who can genuinely play there (Kane, Vinny, son and Bale or 5 if you play Lucas there but he’s never a striker IMO) and their all quite proven or better than that

 

[billyiddo]

Out of curiosity where do you see their squad being better than ours ?
I personally think ours is the best in the league because apart form a few players the drop off in quality with back ups isn’t as bad as other teams IMO (Kane and PEH).

when I look at the depth at city and pool their key players are class as we know but their depth isn’t all that IMO. Pool only yesterday had to bring Milner in at right back for example and their other cover is Gomez or a youth player
City haven’t had a striker all season despite buying so much talent. We arguably have 4 now who can genuinely play there (Kane, Vinny, son and Bale or 5 if you play Lucas there but he’s never a striker IMO) and their all quite proven or better than that

Tbh I'm not going to argue the point as i think we run them close but didn't want to make it dound like i was putting to much weight on the how good the team/squad is.

Defence lets us down - it's clear that by playing Toby and Dier together we have to temper our attacking intent as there's no pace so.we have to sit deeper/have more bodies, yet with Sanchez we leave ourselves at risk in other ways. Ironic really that statistically doing ok in that department.

 

[braineclipse]

Undoubtedly better now than a year ago, both in terms of performances and in squad make up. But let's be fair that is a low point of reference. I think on paper our squad is as good any outside of Liverpool/City and our aims for the season need to be suitably high as a result. Jose is a manager with a great reputation and has never needed long to get things moving his way - expectations at Spurs need to move beyond that of the plucky under dog.

It's a low point of reference, but it was his starting point.

Squad on paper is one thing. Klopp and Guardiola have had years working on their teams.

Our squad being comparable to them is also partly down to Mourinho. Our recruitment this summer looks phenomenal at this point.

I agree that our aims should be high, but one goal wins in tight games have been a common occurrence for many title challengers, and winners.

Arguably peak Pochettino in the league was the 16/17 season, we finished with 86 points. Hull, Middlesbrough and Sunderland were relegated. In the 6 games against them I count 3 single goal wins (two 1-0, one 2-1), a 0-0 draw, a 3-0 win and a 7-1 hammering.

My memory doesn't work well over these timeframes. Perhaps we deserved comfortable wins in all those games. A quick glance on understat would indicate several games with similar xG scores at least.

My point isn't that we shouldn't aim high. But accepting the performances and results we've seen recently aren't antithetical to aiming high. This is what success can look like if this is more or less the floor in performances and the highs are significantly better.

Now, the "if" in that sentence carries a lot of weight. Hence it being too early to judge.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Tbh I'm not going to argue the point as i think we run them close but didn't want to make it dound like i was putting to much weight on the how good the team/squad is.

Defence lets us down - it's clear that by playing Toby and Dier together we have to temper our attacking intent as there's no pace so.we have to sit deeper/have more bodies, yet with Sanchez we leave ourselves at risk in other ways. Ironic really that statistically doing ok in that department.

TBH I can’t argue but I think pools first choice defence is class but their back up is really weak
Ours is ok with a very similar back up sort from Reggie of course so the drop is less and over a season like this that could mean we maintain a consistency

I’ll add I don’t think we’re sitting deeper. I think we’re less gung-ho but we have played teams that sat deep themselves over the last 3 games. That itself has meant the game is then being battled for in midfield and won by who has the best goal scorers

 

[LutonSpurs]

Alli is absolutely good enough to make our subs bench when he is on form and motivated. I have a feeling (based on zero Intel) that the lad has fallen out of love with the game or has some other stuff going on in his head.

I am hoping he finds his mojo again and helps us win the title this season.

 

[Raziel]

I'd have him as direct cover for the second goalscoring role of the front 3 - so atm in a front 3 of Bale Kane Son he'd be first cover for Son. Is he as good as Son is currently? no. Can he score goals in an attacking role, with a player like Kane to play off of? undoubtedly yes - more so than any of the competition.

In theory, but memory is an interesting thing

- Dele has only hit double figures in PL twice (his first two seasons) and overall three times (guess, his first three seasons)
- Son has hit double figure every season for us except his first season in both PL and overall, and has already passed Dele's last season 13 games in ..

Again, there is no difference for me between a player who is going to get 5 to 7 goals vs. one that may get you 9 and I really think that is the difference now (not 4 years ago) between Dele and Lucas/Lamela/Bergwijn.

 

[billyiddo]

In theory, but memory is an interesting thing

- Dele has only hit double figures in PL twice (his first two seasons) and overall three times (guess, his first three seasons)
- Son has hit double figure every season for us except his first season in both PL and overall, and has already passed Dele's last season 13 games in ..

Again, there is no difference for me between a player who is going to get 5 to 7 goals vs. one that may get you 9 and I really think that is the difference now (not 4 years ago) between Dele and Lucas/Lamela/Bergwijn.

You're comparing the goal scoring exploits of an 18-22 year old with those of a 23-28 year old... Dele was outscoring all sorts of top attacking players in direct comparison for his agre bracket and was seen as one of the best attacking prospects in the game. He also chipped in with his fair share of assists and chances created.

My position is simple, play him in attack where he is suited, or at least was suited, not in midfield where he patently isn't- then see if he starts to find his form again. Personally i think playing in the front 3 of a counter attacking team will see him thrive and it wouldn't take long for him to be knocking on the door of the first team. But until that happens it's all ifs buts and maybes. What we do know at the moment is that the 3 behind the current first choice are backups and will never be more than that, whereas Dele, if he finds his mojo and begins to fulfill his potential is much more than that and atm he still just about has time on his side.

 

[glorygloryeze]

When you are good at timing your runs you don't need exceptional pace - if you're talking about the attacking unit in general then I'm not sure where the pace is lacking in comparison to the DESK attack

True, but you have to have more to your game than that in our set-up. More pace, physicality/aggression (how easy is it for him to be dispossessed compared to earlier in his time here) and not slowing down attacks. Right now, he struggles to replace most of our attackers given the way we play. He'd also struggle to displace attackers in our rivals' teams...

 

[glorygloryeze]

yesterday we had a clean sheet yippee
It was more luck than judgment with Loris looking worried many times!

Did you think ten same about the West Ham result, i.e. that was more (bad) luck than judgement? Or were you lvid with how we threw away our lead despite playing some very good stuff at times?

 

[glorygloryeze]

No he’s an attacking player! It very Mourinho’esk

So is Kane. So is Son. So is Ndombele. So is Moura. So is Bale. Etc, etc.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Yes and we were winning games and play superbly.

Like the West Ham game??

 

[billyiddo]

True, but you have to have more to your game than that in our set-up. More pace, physicality/aggression (how easy is it for him to be dispossessed compared to earlier in his time here) and not slowing down attacks. Right now, he struggles to replace most of our attackers given the way we play. He'd also struggle to displace attackers in our rivals' teams...

Why is it after a bad spell so many of our supporters just forget anything good a person ever done for us? Dele was a good attacking player, scored and created goals in a team challenging for the highest honors - he was a better and more rounded attacking player in that period than Moura, Lamela and Bergwijn have ever been and are ever likely to be.