Yeah I can see how its all got a bit mixed up there....
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I assume you are fudging the stats by including the league cup as well.
Come on now, how is that fair?!
If we restrict our view to JUST the FA cup the evidence is clear as day, stop being such an apologist...
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I still blame voodoo for that. A deal with the devil was done. Keep an eye on the first born of the Leicester hierachy, perhaps a sacrifice was made...
Yeah I saw your post about selective stats and definitely agree how stats can be manipulated to suit. But lets be honest the FA Cup is a hell of a lot more prestigious than the League Cup and we've lost the last seven of them which isnt good for a club with our history in the competition....
paxtonwolf
John White
If we get past Swansea, we will never have a better chance of killing the hoodoo having played there all season. I fancy us against any of the other possible 6 at Wembley right now
There is still an outside chance our last 2 matches of the season could both be Leicester City at Wembley.
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
Well for all those who insist on seeing it that way, it's also true that all bad runs come to an end sooner or later. As from this season I trust!
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ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
There were a whole sackful of those 'small matters' not so long ago.........he is ticking them off one by one. Perhaps some are harder to tick off than others. Perhaps sometimes big behemoth football clubs stand in your way.
Perhaps we can wait, and give it the time it needs OR we could bin it off and start all over again. (as if you're not happy, that is the default alternative, assuming your not gonna change teams)
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
To take you head on over this perspective thing.
First, since the departure of Ramos we have not prioritised the domestic cup competitions. Whether you agree with that or not, it offers an inescapable perspective on why we have not won either of those competitions. Indeed to have reached three SFs in the FA Cup and two finals in the League Cup since then is in my book a decent return, all things considered.
Secondly, there is no way you can just set aside the reality that we are up against clubs that can throw hundreds of millions more at the problem than us. They bring in the world's best coaches and flood their squads with some of the world's top players. Whichever way you look at it, that makes the challenge that much harder for the rest. You can cite Leicester until you are blue in the face but there's no getting away from the fact they are the exception that proves the rule: Big Money Buys Big Trophies.
Having said all that I take your point that it's perfectly fair to identify where we are going wrong and suggest where we could improve. We are still on a long journey and we are still learning and improving as we go along.
But despite the odds it feels as though a trophy is not too far away. Meantime, trophy or no trophy, I will continue to enjoy watching one of the most exciting clubs in Europe.
StephenH
David Ginola
Agree with all of that, and Im sure everyone else does - which is why the 'have perspective' thing bugs me. Noone has said any different to what youre saying, but if anyone dares be critical of any specific thing and you get the standard lecture of where we are, where we are going, have perspective blah blah. Everyone knows all this already, that doesnt mean you cant highlight the specifics of what mistakes the coach has made, how we need to better ourselves to take that final step and actually win trophies rather than just being in the mix.
This is a forum where you should be able to discuss the things that arent working aswell as all the great things that are being done at the club. Yet it feels like if you dare offer some constructive criticism you are not appreicating our progress, and you are guaranteed to get a lecture from somewhere about the progress we have made etc. Nayim is right and that maybe some go OTT in their rants, but it doesnt mean they dont recognise the journey we are on and are only highlighing issues where we can better ourselves. This forum would be ridiculously mundane if all we had was posters sucking off Poch and the players all the time and making out like everything was perfect....
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
In this instance the constructive criticism is a vague notion of not doing it in big games, which has hardly been substantiated.
Which gives the impression more of someone having a blind moan than actually something to talk about.
Hence the general "if you look past the end of your nose you will see its not really like that..." kind of response.
Which gives the impression more of someone having a blind moan than actually something to talk about.
Hence the general "if you look past the end of your nose you will see its not really like that..." kind of response.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Things I would criticise?
- I think we do have a lack of cutting edge/ruthlessness/chance conversion. We need to learn to get goals when in the ascendancy. We cant control games 100%, but we do control a high portion of matches without enough reward. Utd made several titles on the back of a couple of quick fire goals killing a game. Id like more of that.
- I think our movement becomes very predictable in attacking areas, and that we dont make enough runs past the attacker/through the lines to cause problems. We seem to shuffle the team around looking for a quick 1-2 opening - Id rather be a bit more direct/forceful at times.
- I do think Pochs subs could be done earlier. He seems very hesitant to change, and while I respect he has faith in the team I think there are many times when a more aggressive move, earlier, would be productive, and he just doesnt seem to do it.
- We can be slow starters in games. While we are very strong finishers (and if forced to choose, I choose to finish strong) we have many games where we just dont get going until the second half. Again, with the Utd example, they had so many games won at half time.
These are, I think, reasonable criticisms. Im sure there are many that would disagree - but as they are presented I am also sure there will be more engagement/debate than if I just bleated on about vague notions of us not being good enough in some trivial or abstract measure.
- I think we do have a lack of cutting edge/ruthlessness/chance conversion. We need to learn to get goals when in the ascendancy. We cant control games 100%, but we do control a high portion of matches without enough reward. Utd made several titles on the back of a couple of quick fire goals killing a game. Id like more of that.
- I think our movement becomes very predictable in attacking areas, and that we dont make enough runs past the attacker/through the lines to cause problems. We seem to shuffle the team around looking for a quick 1-2 opening - Id rather be a bit more direct/forceful at times.
- I do think Pochs subs could be done earlier. He seems very hesitant to change, and while I respect he has faith in the team I think there are many times when a more aggressive move, earlier, would be productive, and he just doesnt seem to do it.
- We can be slow starters in games. While we are very strong finishers (and if forced to choose, I choose to finish strong) we have many games where we just dont get going until the second half. Again, with the Utd example, they had so many games won at half time.
These are, I think, reasonable criticisms. Im sure there are many that would disagree - but as they are presented I am also sure there will be more engagement/debate than if I just bleated on about vague notions of us not being good enough in some trivial or abstract measure.
The only thing I picked up on is that we've lost last seven FA Cup semi finals - find that incredible, not moaning about it but a club of our stature should have a better record than that even when accepting there are bigger clubs around. Smaller clubs than us have made it to the Final during that period! But yeah, point taken with that example....
The movement thing I think is better now Son is a regular, and I think Moura will help massively with that too as he is a dribbler.
The bolded bit I couldnt agree with more, and I think is the thing that bugs me the most about Poch. Will be interested to see how he devlops with his subs, he appears to learn from things that dont work quickly. But I havent seen any real change in this area to date....
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
Just to reiterate something I've mentioned before: Poch has stated in his book he prefers not to bring subs on too early for a variety of reasons.
First because he believes it sends out the wrong message to the players being replaced. He fears it may affect their morale adversely and that this in turn could ultimately impact negatively on overall team spirit, something he is at pains to emphasise is one of his core values and a vital element to building a happy and successful squad.
Second, whilst he is not against the use of subs per se, he believes it is not always the best answer. He emphasises the need to stay calm, to believe in the players that are out there, that they will prevail in the end.
He argues that he evolved this philosophy through his experience as both player and manager at the highest levels. He admits he once used to get very angry as a player over team mates he felt should have been replaced.
So the bad news for those who get frustrated at his tardiness in using substitutes is, it's not about to change any time soon, so we'd better get used to it.
Re subs i think it's a couple of things, firstly up until recently we haven't really had much depth of quality in the midfield and attacking areas and secondly i think he backs/trusts the players on the pitch and any tactical switches made to get the job done rather than it being a case of not knowing how to change the game via a substitution.
Interesting Spur of the moment, thanks for that as I havent seen that. I always assumed there was a reason he is apprehensive about it, but I hope he doesnt turn out to be as stubborn as Wenger and acknowledges his theories arent always right. It was blatantly obvious we needed subs before they came vs Juve for several reasons. Did you see what Allegri said after the game? That he made his subs and pushed full backs further forward because there was a visible drop in the physical level of Spurs players. Poch Im sure saw this too, and the notion that he cant make subs earlier than around 70 minutes, because essentially would upset the players is ridiculous. If they cant comprehend and accept that fresh legs are needed for the better of the team, then frankly they shouldnt be at the club. I do worry if he insists on this theory, especially with the way we play....
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
Compare that list to the West Ham one, after reading that Independent article.
All valid observations btw.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I think it is improving, both Son and Moura are cut from that cloth, although I still think we could do it on a more tactical/embedded basis.
As Steff is always so keen to point out, Poch does constantly work on things - so while it is a criticism for me its not something Im getting super worked up on.
As to the rest, the guys have already tackled it - its how he works, so I wouldnt really expect much change...
I am well aware, and I do understand the point of view. Its just not how I personally would take it.
I can see the argument that its things like that which forge the bond he has with the players. There is no question of his faith in them. He expects them to come good and get it right.
And while certainly commendable, and results do support him, it is something I would like to see him a little more flexible on!
Take Allegri's changes on Wednesday, effectively winning him the game, I dont see Poch ever pulling a move like that.
Personal preference, of course, and Im not saying Id like to see it all the time. Just as an option in those games where it would obviously help.
I agree, you can see why he does it. Its just not quite to my ideology. As I said, certainly not something Im trying to blow out of proportion though.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Compare that list to the West Ham one, after reading that Independent article.
All valid observations btw.
What list/article? Ill check it out.