Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
Yea, he created space similarly for Bale when we won away at WBA.
While again the rest of the bozos stand still. Do they understand the concept of pass and move football? Or even just move?
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*** Tottenham Hotspur FC vs South Coast Big Club OMT ***
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
While again the rest of the bozos stand still. Do they understand the concept of pass and move football? Or even just move?
Look at that movement from our front two.
what concerns me is the reaction from our own players after it's gone in.. Holtby's the only one who looks to go celebrate with Bale
edit: and why can't Hudd do that?? Surely he can push the ball out past a player and let rip. Not saying he's ever going to beat 3 players for pace and power past another two, but he's gotta have just as strong a shot as Bale right???
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Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
The difference is that Bale actually has an idea where he's putting it. From another angle, he has a quick look up at the corner just before having the shot. He knows exactly where he's trying to place it and he has the ability to aim it accurately, even at pace. Huddlestone just shoots with power. Who knows where it will end up?
I think the front 2 are both in good positions to capitalise on a rebound from the goalie or post. The 3rd man nearer the edge of the area (Sigg?) does not move and Holtby makes a good run which their defender ignored.
But I do take Skyfarer's point about similar style players (point players) not really getting involved in the pass and move play that Soton were very good at today. On reflection perhaps we are beating ourselves up more than we should be. Soton are in good form as have been all our recent opponents and we are not getting beat.
But it ain't pretty.
But I do take Skyfarer's point about similar style players (point players) not really getting involved in the pass and move play that Soton were very good at today. On reflection perhaps we are beating ourselves up more than we should be. Soton are in good form as have been all our recent opponents and we are not getting beat.
But it ain't pretty.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Great spot yes on Holtby, who had left himself open for a reverse ball if necessary...yes, poor from the strikers. I'd love to ask Jermain why he does NOT gamble with run across the box into space more often? Does he not see it? He was doing it earlier in the season and getting chances. Adebayor is clearly hanging back to see if it's a cross/chip into the box, so what does that leave JD doing there?
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
=D>=D>=D>
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Good post and for me I think this bolded point is what is wrong with our team. Our players are static. There is zero movement by the players out of possession and as a result no options for the guy on the ball. Actually there are a few who move into space to receive the ball, Holtby and Hudd today, but to me it is obviously not something we work on in training. Pass and move into space to receive it. It's kids stuff really.
It makes me wonder what we do work on in training?! I hear so much about how AVB caters the team to have a specific gameplan against each opposition, but what was our gameplan today!? I'd love to have a beer with AVB to discuss this sort of thing. Another poor performance baled out by Bale.
It's not just "move" in itself either, the direction and acceleration are crucial. Technically, we do move from time to time, the problem is that we just amble forward in the same direction at the exact same pace or peter out. No one is busting their ass to make options, and even when someone is running it's only ever one person. If you watch Man United or Dortmund, they have multiple players *accelerating* at angles to drag defenders and build passing triangles to get around the opposition at speed. The only way we seem to get past the opposition is by running very fast in a straight line, which usually just loses the ball or slows down play because one person dribbling isn't as fast as passing as a team.
Dempsey, Defoe, Lennon, and even Bale to a lesser extent infuriated me with their complete lack of desire to see the ball. This has been a problem with them for ages and ages. Once upon a time we criticized Jenas for being the invisible man, but at least he actually touched the ball (and quite a bit too). The problem with our invisible players these days is that not only do they do very little with the ball, they don't actually get on the ball in the first place. So we can't retain possession much less develop any sort of passing rhythm. It's not enough to do nothing all game while waiting for your one chance - Bale gets away with it because he's injured and his one chance typically results in a crucial goal, the others do not have that quality and thus at the very least need to turn on the energy and make some options for people.
(I remember scouring Fulham forums when they sold Dempsey and Dembele to us. Few were worried about missing Dempsey, they thought he didn't work hard enough and basically sat around in wait like a poacher. More were worried about losing Dembele, but it was a general consensus that his major weakness was consistently holding on to the ball too long. Those are what I consider major warning signs for any signing of ours, because we already struggle so much with mobility, dynamism, and quick passing - hell even before VdV left we were pretty bad in this regard. I do think better movement can be coached, but only to some extent in the first team - tactical intelligence is generally instilled in players by the teenage years, and I think aspects like acceleration are innate. Bottom line - buy more appropriate players, and the team will make more sense.)
Dempsey, Defoe, Lennon, and even Bale to a lesser extent infuriated me with their complete lack of desire to see the ball. This has been a problem with them for ages and ages. Once upon a time we criticized Jenas for being the invisible man, but at least he actually touched the ball (and quite a bit too). The problem with our invisible players these days is that not only do they do very little with the ball, they don't actually get on the ball in the first place. So we can't retain possession much less develop any sort of passing rhythm. It's not enough to do nothing all game while waiting for your one chance - Bale gets away with it because he's injured and his one chance typically results in a crucial goal, the others do not have that quality and thus at the very least need to turn on the energy and make some options for people.
(I remember scouring Fulham forums when they sold Dempsey and Dembele to us. Few were worried about missing Dempsey, they thought he didn't work hard enough and basically sat around in wait like a poacher. More were worried about losing Dembele, but it was a general consensus that his major weakness was consistently holding on to the ball too long. Those are what I consider major warning signs for any signing of ours, because we already struggle so much with mobility, dynamism, and quick passing - hell even before VdV left we were pretty bad in this regard. I do think better movement can be coached, but only to some extent in the first team - tactical intelligence is generally instilled in players by the teenage years, and I think aspects like acceleration are innate. Bottom line - buy more appropriate players, and the team will make more sense.)
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Rorschach
Sonny Walters
You and me are on the same page here. Nay, we are singing from the same hymn sheet. And the same hymn as well.
I loved VDV and though he had his limitations he was a player in constant motion. He wanted the ball and went deep to receive it and lay it off as he saw fit. This seemed to infuriate a lot of people but it did serve a purpose in that (a) the opposition did not have the ball ('dis is good, ja?) and (b) that the defending team is marking space unless they come with you, which results in space somewhere else. Rinus Michels would be turning in his grave if he watched today's match.
Is this really the AVB way of playing? Waiting for the perfect ball to feet is hiding in my opinion. The Southampton front players put ours to shame to day with their movement and desire to win the ball back. Our boys were not pressing as a unit and as such there is not much point.
Despite all today's shortcomings we did not get beaten and we are very hard to beat.
I love posts from intelligent posters giving their insights on the outcome.
But ultimately momentum is what matters. We have started a winning and not conceding momentum and let's hope it continues for a month.
I love posts from intelligent posters giving their insights on the outcome.
But ultimately momentum is what matters. We have started a winning and not conceding momentum and let's hope it continues for a month.
It's not AVB's way of playing, but it has been the habit of certain players for years and years. Dempsey has always played this way. Defoe has always played this way. Lennon has always played this way. Hudd has always played this way. It would take more than a season to get these players, who have had many many games under their belts, to change - and even then, when fatigue starts setting in, players revert to type.
I liked Lallana and Schneiderlin when they were in the Championship. Pace-wise they could be criticized but they are quite silky on the ball. Ramirez was a proper signing and they almost took Coutinho in Jan. Despite his lack of glamour Lambert's actually been one of the most creative strikers this season. Like Swansea, Southampton have a core style of play and have both bought and developed a team and manager along those lines.
I don't believe it's difficult to integrate a large number of new players if they are strong at the basics (passing, good movement, good first touch) and fit the style you are trying to build. Players who are comfortable on the ball usually look comfortable anywhere. The problem comes when you are like QPR - new players, new manager, but no coherence in transfer policy other than "they're decent and available", and a wide range of technical ability among those players. Teammates struggle to get on the same page when some are pressing, some are standing off, some prefer to play lots of short little passes while others would much rather charge forward directly, many are used to finishing off the move but no one can actually start one, etc. Or when some can see a clever pass *if* they have the time but the players in their new team don't create that time and option for them (Sig suffers from this) and so on.
We have sold off our most adaptable players - the ones with high technical quality and good football brains - but kept the ones who only look good when the side is built around them because never in their life have they been asked to control the foundation of a game. They can still be productive as everyone runs around and scrabbles for a goal (in any scrabble the best goalscorer will come out on top, and that's Bale), but by GHod do we need a foundation. And that work needs to be done on the transfer level as much as the training pitch.
I liked Lallana and Schneiderlin when they were in the Championship. Pace-wise they could be criticized but they are quite silky on the ball. Ramirez was a proper signing and they almost took Coutinho in Jan. Despite his lack of glamour Lambert's actually been one of the most creative strikers this season. Like Swansea, Southampton have a core style of play and have both bought and developed a team and manager along those lines.
I don't believe it's difficult to integrate a large number of new players if they are strong at the basics (passing, good movement, good first touch) and fit the style you are trying to build. Players who are comfortable on the ball usually look comfortable anywhere. The problem comes when you are like QPR - new players, new manager, but no coherence in transfer policy other than "they're decent and available", and a wide range of technical ability among those players. Teammates struggle to get on the same page when some are pressing, some are standing off, some prefer to play lots of short little passes while others would much rather charge forward directly, many are used to finishing off the move but no one can actually start one, etc. Or when some can see a clever pass *if* they have the time but the players in their new team don't create that time and option for them (Sig suffers from this) and so on.
We have sold off our most adaptable players - the ones with high technical quality and good football brains - but kept the ones who only look good when the side is built around them because never in their life have they been asked to control the foundation of a game. They can still be productive as everyone runs around and scrabbles for a goal (in any scrabble the best goalscorer will come out on top, and that's Bale), but by GHod do we need a foundation. And that work needs to be done on the transfer level as much as the training pitch.
Agree with you! It's a 86th minute winner in the last stage of the season. They should go mental!!
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
While I see what you're saying I think that you've overlooked the huge loss of the Sandro/Dembele midfield axis to our game. Talk about a foundation, it was that and then some. What would most intrigue me is if he'd been given the money/we had had, to buy Moutinho/Leandro and play them as follows:
Lloris
Walker Kaboul Vertonghen Ekotto/Rose
Sandro
Dembele Moutinho
Lennon Bale
Leandro
Effectively this would leave him with 10 fine footballers out there, to CBs who can really play, full-backs who can bomb on knowing the CBs will split and Sandro will patrol the area right in front of them. Frankly, even if you replaced Moutinho with Holtby (not NEARLY the same player of course, but a man of some aptitude) and Ade instead of Leandro (not ideal) you would still say that side has foundation!
I think we're doing whatever we need to in order to get across the line. That's how I judge it.
Oh, and if we buy a forward, I'd take Benteke over Leandro TBH!
braineclipse
Willie Hall
After Dembele went off with his injury we were missing our two first choice central midfielders and our first backup player in Parker. I think most teams would have noticed that.
We still need to make something happen in the summer though as I agree with skyfarer that we have to get better at controlling the foundation of the game.
We need to do some very good deals in the transfer window for sure.
Nice post. But (and I feel like a bit of a broken record here because no-one seems to be addressing this) this is why I think AVB has to take a large portion of the blame for the poor performance yesterday. He was the one to choose the front four of Dempsey, Defoe, Bale and Lennon. I was at the game too and, as you alluded to, every time one of our deeper players looked for a forward pass, Lennon held his width and the other three made runs beyond the last defender. I think AVB's plan might have been to take advantange of their high line with long balls over the top, but clearly it didn't work.
Carroll and Holtby have both shown signs of being good pass-and-movers, and Siggy at least tends to play in the hole and look to receive passes into his feet; IMO we should have been playing a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 with at least two of them in the team, to be able to pass around Southampton's press. At the very least we should have made changes along those lines at half-time, when AVB could surely see that whatever his gameplan had been, it wasn't working.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
Had he not played Lennon and we had played as poorly (seems likely) people would have been slating him for not using our only real right winger to stretch the game. Had he played Sig instead of Dempsey, well, same story.
He made our second sub after 60 minutes, pretty standard/earlyish time to make a sub to change it. Seems like a fairly normal thing to give the players 15 minutes in the second half to change things around after the half time talk. He then made the Sig for Dempsey sub around 10 minutes later, seems fair enough. Had he made that sub earlier and we had picked up an injury people would be slating him for not saving a sub for later in case of injuries.
Edit: With Holtby coming on fairly late in the first half it made even more sense to wait until a bit into the second half to make the next change to see how it developed with Holtby in there.
I don't think it was a problem with tactics/selection yesterday.
I normally agree with virtually everything you post on here braineclipse, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't speak for whether other people would have slated him for doing things differently, but as soon as I saw the lineup I was worried that we'd struggle to string any passes together with Bale, Defoe and Dempsey all about scoring goals and making runs behind defenders (at least in this game).
Not sure what you mean by "same story" with Siggy and Dempsey - to me they are quite different style of players. And I would have played Lennon too (I would have just played Holtby ahead of Dempsey). Of course we might still have played poorly - we can never know - but I think it's almost self-evident that it will be very difficult to keep possession against a pressing team when you play with two strikers and two wide-men high up the pitch.
(Regarding the subs, in fairness I find it frustrating how managers in general wait so long to make subs, so I guess I'm not picking on AVB or yesterday specifically.)