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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Muttley said:
Were we not going for triple depth though with Madds, Kulu and MGW? That obviously became Xavi but is the same thing.

I could easily build a case that we could play Kulu, Madds and Xavi in the same 4-2-3-1 system ahead of a double pivot like Bents / Gray. That would require the attacking width from the full-backs like Poch had it.

We'd then be accused of being midfield heavy would be my guess.
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I'm a little confused regarding our search for a midfielder this season - MGW to me is a CM / AM hybrid (a role i think also covers Maddison too) and Eze while not as much as MGW i could certainly see dropping in to midfield to get on the ball given his playmakimg abilities. Whereas Xavi, to me, is a pure final third player, someone who needs the ball played in to him in that area and from there he can link around the box or shoot from range.
 
Muttley said:
You don't remember the second half of seasons?

At least that is the way I remember it. We run out of steam many seasons with guys like Parker running on empty.
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I think the toughest moment of Harry's reign for me was up at Villa penultimate game of the 2012 season. Having blown 3rd, we went to Villa Park needing two wins in our final two to guarantee 3rd (I'm sure you remember). We drew 1-1 against a side barely safe from relegation, Rose was sent off early second-half, and he bought on Parker late on whiulst leaving Defoe and Saha on the bench. That was a tough, tough afternoon...
 
billyiddo said:
Our most often used route to the final third was via the wide areas under Ange too mate. Plenty of crosses too (12th most this season vs 8th last season)

I know it's been given a name on here recently as a way to knock the manager but it's nothing new.
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All teams ‘mostly’ progress the ball up the sides of the pitch. Frank’s Spurs go one step further though, pretty much completely ignoring passing forwards through the centre of the pitch.
 
Muttley said:
Were we not going for triple depth though with Madds, Kulu and MGW? That obviously became Xavi but is the same thing.

I could easily build a case that we could play Kulu, Madds and Xavi in the same 4-2-3-1 system ahead of a double pivot like Bents / Gray. That would require the attacking width from the full-backs like Poch had it.

We'd then be accused of being midfield heavy would be my guess.
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I would love to see something like that tried. I actually would love to see Maddison in that pivot and maybe shift Gray to 8 with Xavi in the 10 and Deki. Madders likes to get on the ball early, and I think hje'd be harder for oppostion to pick up roving and radaring from those deeper positions. But hey, anything along your lines (or those) would be welcome!
 
billyiddo said:
I'm a little confused regarding our search for a midfielder this season - MGW to me is a CM / AM hybrid (a role i think also covers Maddison too) and Eze while not as much as MGW i could certainly see dropping in to midfield to get on the ball given his playmakimg abilities. Whereas Xavi, to me, is a pure final third player, someone who needs the ball played in to him in that area and from there he can link around the box or shoot from range.
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I think it's fair to say MGW was your first choice, so whatever plan we had for the season was with him mind. Then Eze became the next option, that obviously didn't happen and so we went for Xavi. Now for me Xavi is actually the most talented but it's also probably fair to say he's a bit of a desperation signing. He wasn't our 1st or even 2nd option and so whilst he might have talent, Frank might not know best how to use him.
 
thfcsteff said:
We (as we all know hahahaha) played a higher line and (as we all know hahaha) took greater risks with the FBs via the inversion, so via the press and risks taken, we ended up creating more. I think it's a fair point that we have no Maddison this season, however I have a huge issue with a football directorship that looked at Maddison at the start of last season and thought he'd be ever-present; I said in August 2024 we'd be lucky to see him play more than 25 games in the season.

I accept that Frank very obviously wanted MGW, and this player would've been a great addition; we fudged it up. Obviously not on TF. Not that MGW is like for like Madders, but he is a presence in the middle of the pitch. However we just do not seem to be profiling midfieders who enjoy the attacking middle areas of the pitch.

At this moment, Frank is in a tough moment and it is hard not to feel sympathetic. I expect a cagey and defensive performance tomorrow night, designed to not lose and hopefully nick more. Our board is silent, Vinai (who previously seemed to be a more media/optical chairman) has gone into a bunker, Lange is doubtless just trying to tread water and find someone who wants to come here right now, I am convinced Paratici is not supportive of Frank, thus Thomas is fighting a lonely battle right now. It blows!
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Success has many fathers, failure is a bastard. The manager is always the guy standing out front taking the stick. The clubs has lost its identity since Pochettino left and it's easy to understand why many would like to see him back.
I believe the players have become confused with the constant change of managers and staff and we lack a leader to turn to on the pitch.
We don't have enough outstanding players, some good but not consistent and some good prospects, they should be performing better and making better decisions.
Our play is very laboured at times and encourages our opponents to gain confidence, the Sunderland game was a good example, the first half our movement and pace was good, a second goal looked like it would come. We still lost possession through bad passing and came out in he second half too cautiously and you could see the confidence shown in 1st half disappearing. This is where our lack of a leader shows, Romero has enough of his own demons to worry about.
Until we can get a settled team we will continue to struggle, our midfield and attack players seem to be playing different roles each game whether this is due to them not being able to do what the manager wants or he's assessing how to get the best out of them I don't know.
We're a hard watch at the moment and every game looks tough.
I don't think we should sack Frank, we should be safe from relegation, but I can't see us progressing in the cups which should help us. Are there any outstanding candidates who could make the changes required?
 
Finney Is Back said:
All teams ‘mostly’ progress the ball up the sides of the pitch. Frank’s Spurs go one step further though, pretty much completely ignoring passing forwards through the centre of the pitch.
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That seems to be how it is playing out this season - I've been having a look at Brentfords passing last season and it doesn't really match, both Nørgaard & Damsgaard were regularly passing vertically through the middle and clocking up respectable progressive passing numbers throughout the season.
 
Mabspurs said:
I was afraid as much....

The problem is not that "he hasn't got the coaching to naturally have us passing, moving and attacking in ways that naturally create decent chances for the attackers" or that "the players look like they don't practice it much."

It is because - as @Bishop - so eloquently described yesterday.... the players lack basic passing skills. Otherwise they would not be making an unforced passing error every 3 minutes!! The only way that you can create "decent chances" in this situation is to throw them all in attack hoping a chance materialises by sheer force of numbers. Ange tried that last year (and he actually could play the only two decent passers in the squad - both currently injured) and we saw what was the result of that.....
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Here's the thing with those passing stats. It was apparent last season. This is where the Ange and TF stories converge. I recall reading on here when we were analysing how we conceded a goal that the turnover often started with a misplaced pass. We conceded because we had usually overcommitted in attack and we were unable to get back into shape quickly enough to prevent the goal on the counter. How many times did someone post "if we had a midfielder sitting deeper or if the full backs had not been so high up we might have prevented that goal."

And to give Ange his due, in those first games he got our passing to be as crisp and progressive as I have ever seen it. We rarely lost the ball. It really was wonderful. Led by Son, Madders and Bissouma. They were outstanding. Then Madders got injured, Biss had injury and disciplinary problems and Son's form dropped off a cliff. We've replaced them with poorer passers or inexperienced players whose poor decision making puts us in trouble and we haven't recovered. @Bishop has tried to make this point and the stats support him.

So this season, we still have the issues with passing and poor decision making as the stats show. But TF is not over committing to attack so the turnovers don't hurt us as much. This shows in the goal conceded column. But the trade off of not having the players so advanced is we don't score as many goals as we did last season.

TF, I'm sure is aware of all our problems. They had plagued Ange last season too but his system was less tolerant to the turnovers. TF knows we need to bolster our strike force as Richy and Muani haven't been good enough (Muani frequently seems to lose the ball which breaks down our attacks, Richy too). He knows we need more progressive passers in midfield. But he can't change this overnight.
 
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K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
Success has many fathers, failure is a bastard. The manager is always the guy standing out front taking the stick. The clubs has lost its identity since Pochettino left and it's easy to understand why many would like to see him back.
I believe the players have become confused with the constant change of managers and staff and we lack a leader to turn to on the pitch.
We don't have enough outstanding players, some good but not consistent and some good prospects, they should be performing better and making better decisions.
Our play is very laboured at times and encourages our opponents to gain confidence, the Sunderland game was a good example, the first half our movement and pace was good, a second goal looked like it would come. We still lost possession through bad passing and came out in he second half too cautiously and you could see the confidence shown in 1st half disappearing. This is where our lack of a leader shows, Romero has enough of his own demons to worry about.
Until we can get a settled team we will continue to struggle, our midfield and attack players seem to be playing different roles each game whether this is due to them not being able to do what the manager wants or he's assessing how to get the best out of them I don't know.
We're a hard watch at the moment and every game looks tough.
I don't think we should sack Frank, we should be safe from relegation, but I can't see us progressing in the cups which should help us. Are there any outstanding candidates who could make the changes required?
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I agree with so much of what you've said.

The last question is key. And I suppose the answert lies in what sort of club the ownership want us to be (beyond a winning one, which we all want).
 
Robspur12 said:
Here's the thing with those passing stats. It was apparent last season. This is where the Ange and TF stories converge. I recall reading on here when we were analysing how we conceded a goal that the turnover often started with a misplaced pass. We conceded because we had usually overcommitted in attack and we were unable to get back into shape quickly enough to prevent the goal on the counter. How many times did someone post "if we had a midfielder sitting deeper or if the full backs had not been so high up we might have prevented that goal."

And to give Ange his due, in those first games he got our passing to be as crisp and progressive as I have ever seen it. We rarely lost the ball. It really was wonderful. Led by Son, Madders and Bissouma. They were outstanding. Then Madders got injured, Biss had injury and disciplinary problems and Son's form dropped off a cliff. We've replaced them with poorer passers or inexperienced players whose poor decision making puts us in trouble and we haven't recovered. @Bishop has tried to make this point and the stats support him.

So this season, we still have the issues with passing and poor decision making as the stats show. But TF is not over committing to attack so the turnovers don't hurt us as much. This shows in the goal conceded column. But the trade off of not having the players so advanced is we don't score as many goals as we did last season.

TF, I'm sure is aware of all our problems. They had plagued Ange last season too but his system was less tolerant to the turnovers. TF knows we need to bolster our strike force as Richy and Muani haven't been good enough (Muani frequently seems to lose the ball which breaks down our attacks, Richy too). He knows we need more progressive passers in midfield. But he can't change this overnight.
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I would absolutely agree with this except time and time again, when an opportunity presents itself, he doesn't take the 'risk'. Take Sunday. 1-1. He brings Palhinha on. It is the perfect opportunity to use Palhinha for what he is -an expert closer- and place either Gray or Bergvall with him to drive and carry the ball from deep, with Bentancur playing further forward (having shown in the first=half he can still be progressive when given the chance). Instead we paired them up. Or why not got two up top and make the most of Muani and Richarlison? I'm not saying he has an entire squad to choose from, I'm not even saying he has the best of the best, but those moments/those tactical decisions, tell me something. They tell me he is averse to risk after a certain point. Sunderland were leaving lots of space, and whilst I know Bergvall is not a 'passer' per se, when carrying from deeper positions, he has found a channel ball/clipped pass into space and behind a few times this season. I am waiting to see a little more adventure, or indeed signs of it. We absolutely could've won that game IMO had we not been so risk averse in the second-half/last 2-25 minutes. Still, it's a choice and I have to accept that.
 
Bishop said:
I think it's fair to say MGW was your first choice, so whatever plan we had for the season was with him mind. Then Eze became the next option, that obviously didn't happen and so we went for Xavi. Now for me Xavi is actually the most talented but it's also probably fair to say he's a bit of a desperation signing. He wasn't our 1st or even 2nd option and so whilst he might have talent, Frank might not know best how to use him.
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As I understand it, both Eze and Simons were discussed very early, however Frank wasn't as keen as others based on how he wanted to play. Frank wanted MGW. We fudged that up. By the time he had come around to Eze we simply weren't clinical enough to get it done and allowed the backdoor to swing open, at which point we lost leverage due to his allegiances. We went back to Simons. I wholly agree with you that TF has not quite figured out how to best use him. I say this because Xavi (like Eze) is not a natural fit for the system and style Frank favors.
 
thfcsteff said:
As I understand it, both Eze and Simons were discussed very early, however Frank wasn't as keen as others based on how he wanted to play. Frank wanted MGW. We fudged that up. By the time he had come around to Eze we simply weren't clinical enough to get it done and allowed the backdoor to swing open, at which point we lost leverage due to his allegiances. We went back to Simons. I wholly agree with you that TF has not quite figured out how to best use him. I say this because Xavi (like Eze) is not a natural fit for the system and style Frank favors.
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? the owner went gangster style on a kid who had a wife with pregnancy complications .. we do a lot of stupid brick as a club, that one isn't on us.
 
thfcsteff said:
As I understand it, both Eze and Simons were discussed very early, however Frank wasn't as keen as others based on how he wanted to play. Frank wanted MGW. We fudged that up. By the time he had come around to Eze we simply weren't clinical enough to get it done and allowed the backdoor to swing open, at which point we lost leverage due to his allegiances. We went back to Simons. I wholly agree with you that TF has not quite figured out how to best use him. I say this because Xavi (like Eze) is not a natural fit for the system and style Frank favors.
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Eze never wanted to come to us he always wanted scum he even rang the manager to avoid coming to us. how is that on TF or the club.
 
kb 1984 said:
Eze never wanted to come to us he always wanted scum he even rang the manager to avoid coming to us. how is that on TF or the club.
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Eze was a due diligence failure and we let Palace string us along. Part of these kind of jobs is a sniff test and understanding if someone is negotiating in good faith, we were never anything but a fall back option for Eze and we should have determined that and moved along.
 
Raziel said:
Eze was a due diligence failure and we let Palace string us along. Part of these kind of jobs is a sniff test and understanding if someone is negotiating in good faith, we were never anything but a fall back option for Eze and we should have determined that and moved along.
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I agree but it was never on TF I am not his greatest fan but it's a bit harsh to blame him.
 
veryoldspur said:
Let us not forget, this is a spectator sport partly funded by people paying an average of £2k for a season ticket. We should also remember the club is and will also lose large amounts of revenue because fans won't attend games, and we won't get revenue from Europe or even domestic cups. Hanging on for him to turn things around is just idealism. Meanwhile we would all have to sit through paint drying
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typical response, with no alternative plan - so what do you think we should do? don't just slam me and then have no feedback, that's just lazy. If we don't give managers time, how can we see how things will pan out? remember when we had conte and we lost in europe to a managerless small club who's manager was in jail? did the structure support him then? which manager do you want in? Poch aint available till at least after the world cup, and would we support him 'properly'? Glassner is also defensive, iraola? also finding things tough even without european footy? seems like we'd gamble with anyone we take in - were you Ange in or out ? He was full on attacking. I talked to fans when we were routinely losing in the league but in the final of the europa, with all those injuries, still wanted him out. We just have no time for anyone, no commitment. We won't go for a Pep, even a Klopp but we might get lucky with a Poch style - however the reality is the top people are in with TF, who is an intelligent man but I think he sees we aren't good enough to be a possession team, or an attacking team who can also defend well, that's the crux of it for me. Build from the back going forward
 
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