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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

scaramanga said:
Unfortunately, the ratchet has been turned that little bit further. No matter how much proof is published over the nex[ few days, we can never roll back to where we were before the propaganda.
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A lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots. And that was said before social media.

There is a stench of Russia over all of this. This is their MO.
 
Bullet said:
Is that video above really true i.e. it was just some cars near a hospital? Or is that video from some other incident? It is so hard to know nowadays. I've seen tweets stating that Hamas rockets wouldn't have the firepower to flatten a hospital, so it must have been Israel, all very convincing except maybe there was no hospital flattened?



A separate topic; a day or 2 ago someone (dawaxman I think) was posting videos, so I just caught up with some of them.

I found this guy interesting; he talks through the history of the region in an engaging way, and encourages viewers to challenge him if he is wrong.

Some of you may also learn some interesting tidbits about the history of the area from the 7th century up to the 20th century i.e. before Britain got involved etc.

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I've not watched it so that video (and others) may very well be legitimate and 100% factual, but as you said regarding the other video "it is so hard to know nowadays." Literally, anyone can record something and upload it and suddenly it becomes true. So then you bounce back to "mainstream media" and of course, many of those outlets are not easy to trust.

I don't know what point I'm trying to make but it's so depressing when you can't believe anything anymore.
 
monkeybarry said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nd...l-strike-release-video-as-proof-4491664/amp/1

That is inline with what the IDF said.

The first few months of war in the social media age are full of claim, false claim, counter claim etc.

We should all be very careful with making snap judgements. And choose our news sources carefully.
I hate to say it, but that doesn't include the main BBC.
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Why the pile in on the BBC? This is a war situation there may well be conflicting news at times, I suspect that has always happened in war situations but at least they correct it. Would you trust them less than any of the broadsheets?
 
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scaramanga said:
Whatever superpower he has that allows him to identify fighter jets at 40,000 feet in a dark sky could be of tremendous use to us all.
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Do Hamas have fighter jets? If not then any fighter jet is likely to be Israeli and the type of jet they use presumably is not a mystery?

I am genuinely not trying to take sides here. I worked in Israel for a summer, loved the country and the Jewish and Arab (Druze) communities I worked in. But the sense of polarisation about regional politics was one of the most intense that I have ever come across.
 
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Baleforce said:
that’s kinda like saying Ukraine made a choice to declare war on Russia

Israel have a terrorist state next door, they have the right to defend themselves, just as Ukraine do

some would say a moral obligation to do so as well
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I agree they have a right to defend themselves. But the way they are doing it has never created a sustainable solution to the threat. They bomb the hell out of the neighbours, degrade their weapons for a while but at the same time add more recruits who become the next generation of fighters, rinse and repeat.

There needs to be a strategy that targets only the perpetrators and the leaders of Hamas, Mossad have been masters of doing this over the years. Then sit round the table, and agree a 2 state solution which both sides honour. But it needs cool heads and a willingness from both sides to put aside their hatred and do that. Hamas won't do it so the international community must do everything possible to strengthen Fatah. It has been achieved before and it brought about some stability until the nutters on both sides intervene.
 
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Robspur12 said:
Sorry Scara genuine question, where are they claiming that?
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It was in one of the many Al Beeb articles on the explosion. May not have been Hamas directly, could have been someone they were using to spread their propaganda.

Apparently people were sheltering in an open air courtyard....
 
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Robspur12 said:
I agree they have a right to defend themselves. But the way they are doing it has never created a sustainable solution to the threat. They bomb the hell out of the neighbours, degrade their weapons for a while but at the same time add more recruits who become the next generation of fighters, rinse and repeat.

There needs to be a strategy that targets only the perpetrators and the leaders of Hamas, Mossad have been masters of doing this over the years. Then sit round the table, and agree a 2 state solution which both sides honour. But it needs willingness from both sides to put aside their hatred and do that. It has been achieved before and it brought about some stability until the nutters on both sides intervene.
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There isn’t a sustainable solution to a terrorist state on your doorstep.
 
Robspur12 said:
Do Hamas have fighter jets? If not then any fighter jet is likely to be Israeli and the type of jet they use presumably is not a mystery?

I am genuinely not trying to take sides here. I worked in Israel for a summer, loved the country and the Jewish and Arab (Druze) communities I worked in. But the sense of polarisation about regional politics was one of the most intense that I have ever come across.
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I think you've missed the point. There were no jets. It's not about identifying which ones they were, everything he said was made up.
 
Robspur12 said:
There are jets though and air strikes.
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Not at that time. Not according to the handful of videos of the rocket, not according to any other eye witnesses and not according to the complete lack of any crater that would have been created from an Israeli air strike.

Even amongst those spreading Hamas's propaganda, he's alone in claiming there were aircraft anywhere in the vicinity.
 
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scaramanga said:
Not at that time. Not according to the handful of videos of the rocket, not according to any other eye witnesses and not according to the complete lack of any crater that would have been created from an Israeli air strike.

Even amongst those spreading Hamas's propaganda, he's alone in claiming there were aircraft anywhere in the vicinity.
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Fair enough.
 
Robspur12 said:
Fair enough.
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Found the video - on Al Beeb here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67144061

Clearly a rocket with an upward trajectory, a couple of flashes that people have suggested is sputtering propulsion, then a flash. Shortly afterward, there's a flash of flames at what apparently is the hospital site. At this point, the likeliest explanation is a rocket from Gaza heading towards Israel failed and dumped its fuel all over the hospital car park.
 
scaramanga said:
Found the video - on Al Beeb here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67144061

Clearly a rocket with an upward trajectory, a couple of flashes that people have suggested is sputtering propulsion, then a flash. Shortly afterward, there's a flash of flames at what apparently is the hospital site. At this point, the likeliest explanation is a rocket from Gaza heading towards Israel failed and dumped its fuel all over the hospital car park.
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It does bring into question all of the claimed figures on fatalities and injuries. 500 were dead and x number injured in this hospital attack. Who publishes these figures that are evidently made up in this instance?
 
The biggest 'proof' re. who fired the projectile is the lack of a rocket or its fragments. In Ukraine, there were all sorts of fragments to ID where the projectile was fired from. That they have disappeared from the site in Gaza isn't conclusive, but it does suggest it wasn't Israeli/US-made. If it was can you imagine the hoopla?

The contrast in condemnation for Israel creating the same explosion versus the condemnation for Hamas killing their own people, or even trying to do the same to Israelis, is stark.
 
Robspur12 said:
Why the pile in on the BBC? This is a war situation there may well be conflicting news at times, I suspect that has always happened in war situations but at least they correct it. Would you trust them less than any of the broadsheets?
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It's probably a symptom of the social media age - the need for instant information, which naturally doesn't allow for solid verification.
This is the first time I don't feel like the BBC are taking the cautious reporting style I would expect from them.
The items that come more from the BBC World Service side still seems to be doing what it should be.
I've always been a huge advocate for the BBC.
 
dawaxman said:
I have two points, one which is to challenge something you've said and one about a new theory which your post helped me realise

1. This very much IS a religious ideological war in the eyes of hamas. This is not about getting more land in/around gaza or the west bank. Hamas want the end of the Jewish people starting with the 'zionists' in Israel and then they'll move on to the Jews in the diaspora before moving on to Christians, Hindus and the non-religious Muslims. They are radical extremists

2. I'm not sure exactly what your post said that gave me this thought, but it's been bugging me that there is a narrative that Israel is indiscriminately shelling gaza with rockets, with no care for civilian life. BUT, by doing this, they're risking killing the Israeli hostages, something the Israeli government/IDF would never sanction. So I theorise that the level of random bombs going into densely populated areas is being massively exaggerated both in terms of the volume, the magnitude of the bombs and the randomness of them

Food for thought
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Apologies for reposting my own message but I thought it addressed one or two points that @Robspur12 was making

Especially around this ongoing narrative that gaza is under constant rocket attack.... again something that has been taken as fact with little proof and, what I think is, a great theory for why it can't be 100% true
 
dawaxman said:
Especially around this ongoing narrative that gaza is under constant rocket attack.... again something that has been taken as fact with little proof and, what I think is, a great theory for why it can't be 100% true
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I dont think I have ever made that point.
 
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