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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

P.D. said:
I've seen a few articles saying that the crossing has been bombed and Egypt need permission from Israel before allowing aid through. Is none of that true?

https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt...a-opening-rafah-crossing-0600-gmt-2023-10-16/
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There's two parts of it.

Israel wants to ensure that any aid will only get to civilians and not Hamas. Hamas has very recent history of stealing aid and using it during missions against Israel.

In terms of refugees, Egypt doesn't want them. Given the non zero chance of Hamas terrorists sneaking out as civilians and continuing their atrocities elsewhere, it's understandable.
 
dawaxman said:
They could surrender... no more Palestinians would die

And they're quite keen on suicide generally - search 'suicide bombers' on Google. They're totally up for killing themselves and taking civilians (from either side) with them
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Anyone could surrender, that's a given but it's not going to happen when everyone is so convinced by their own propaganda and entrenched in believing their cause is worth dying (and killing) for

On the suicide point, not meaning to sound flippant but it is an intriguing inconsistency that I'm fairly certain that in shariah law countries it is illegal to attempt to kill yourself, however extremists do just that in the name of their GHod which is encouraged by those with extremist views despite one of the fundamental points being that life is precious and GHod given.

Edit - I should add I'm not trying to offend anyone by possibly oversimplifying things I openly don't have a huge understanding of ie the Islam faith, but it does seem a slight contradiction.
 
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scaramanga said:
Of course. That's why countries with small armies tend not to pick fights with those that have large ones.

Regardless of how effective the tactic is, that's what they should be doing. Any civilian suffering past that is on them.
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But if you're invaded by a country with a larger army you should just give up? It's a bit like conceding the league to city because they have more resources rather than giving it a go and using whatever you have up your sleeve.

My thought with that analogy is Vietnam who managed to defend themselves against the USA by not having buildings marked "military" and standing in regiment form like you think a proper army should, if they fought how you're suggesting they should have the county would have lost and wouldn't exist in the way it does today.
 
spurspinter1 said:
But if you're invaded by a country with a larger army you should just give up? It's a bit like conceding the league to city because they have more resources rather than giving it a go and using whatever you have up your sleeve.

My thought with that analogy is Vietnam who managed to defend themselves against the USA by not having buildings marked "military" and standing in regiment form like you think a proper army should, if they fought how you're suggesting they should have the county would have lost and wouldn't exist in the way it does today.
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Not give up, no. Fight as hard as possible without crossing the boundary of war crimes. The use of unwilling innocents as human shields is a war crime.

I don't know what would have happened in Vietnam, but not being able to hide behind civilians would certainly have made them think twice before shooting at the US Navy and giving them an excuse to escalate. But who knows what would have happened - the people there would probably be better off without a communist dictatorship.
 
As more and more evidence seems to point to a failed rocket from Gaza causing the hospital damage, the following comes from the BBC:

Zaher Kuhail, a British-Palestinian civil engineering consultant and university professor who was nearby at the time, told the BBC that what he had witnessed was "beyond imagination".

"I [saw] two rockets coming from an F-16 or an F-35 [fighter jet], shelling these people and killing them ruthlessly, without any mercy," he said.
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This (probable) distributor of terrorist propaganda is easily found on social media. Seeing as he's of dual citizenship, the UK govt should have no trouble in removing the British part of that. Either that or study him for the benefit of medical science. Whatever superpower he has that allows him to identify fighter jets at 40,000 feet in a dark sky could be of tremendous use to us all.
 
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thfcsteff said:
Again I have to ask a simple question.
Do you believe Hamas has the interests of the Palestinian people at heart (or even occasionally on the surface)?
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Thats a really interesting question and TBH who knows? But I often ask myself, is that much different to any government?

I have read alot about the troubles over the years and whats becomes clear about them as a terrorist organisation is that they certainly had a cause and it was deeply rooted in what they felt was the oppression of their own, in fact I would say their members fought for a cause, knowing the cause and took to choice to do so based on beliefs that had the interests of the people close to their hearts. Not defending it but you compare that to a soldier who signs up to be sent anywhere in the world to fight a cause they know little or nothing about because they took an oath, then you put your trust in a leader and hope they have the best interests of the country at heart, can we honestly say that's also the case given the worlds history over the last 100 years? I'm not sure we can 100%. You could certainly point towards governments committing more war crimes than terrorists over that time under what seems to be all forgiving umbrella of "war"

You can also argue that terrorists take crude and extreme measures because the only thing that sets them apart from an army is the infrastructure/organisation and size. Again that's not to defend their actions but I think there needs to be a more open mind that they indeed do have a cause and there is maybe reason behind their actions. The problem in accepting that, you have to then accept that there might be questions to be answered on why they exist as an organisation, I would think its naïve to think any terrorist organisation exist just to exist. Going back to the troubles as an example its becomes difficult for people to accept, given the bombs going off up and down the country that in fact, we might have had questions to answer about our treatment of the Irish not the other way round.

@spurspinter1 example of Vietnam was really interesting for me for that reason, where is the line between war/terrorism and are governments always right and terrorists wrong based on classification alone? I don't think its a simple question to answer.

I know I have gone off on a tangent from your original point I just find the whole subject thought provoking and just to be clear, this is not me defending any terrorism, lets be clear.
 
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Grays_1890 said:
Thats a really interesting question and TBH who knows? But I often ask myself, is that much different to any government?

I have read alot about the troubles over the years and whats becomes clear about them as a terrorist organisation is that they certainly had a cause and it was deeply rooted in what they felt was the oppression of their own, in fact I would say their members fought for a cause, knowing the cause and took to choice to do so based on beliefs that had the interests of the people close to their hearts. Not defending it but you compare that to a soldier who signs up to be sent anywhere in the world to fight a cause they know little or nothing about because they took an oath, then you put your trust in a leader and hope they have the best interests of the country at heart, can we honestly say that's also the case given the worlds history over the last 100 years? I'm not sure we can 100%. You could certainly point towards governments committing more war crimes than terrorists over that time under what seems to be all forgiving umbrella of "war"

You can also argue that terrorists take crude and extreme measures because the only thing that sets them apart from an army is the infrastructure/organisation and size. Again that's not to defend their actions but I think there needs to be more open minded that they indeed do have a cause and there is maybe reason behind their actions. The problem in accepting that you have to then accept that there might be questions to be answered on why they exist as an organisation, I would think its naïve to think any terrorist organisation exist just to exist. Going back to the troubles as an example its becomes difficult for people to accept, given the bombs going off up and down the country that in fact, we might have had questions to answer about our treatment of the Irish not the other way round.

@spurspinter1 example of Vietnam was really interesting for me for that reason, where is the line between war/terrorism and are governments always right and terrorists wrong based on classification alone? I don't think its a simple question to answer.

I know I have gone off on a tangent from your original point I just find the whole subject thought provoking and just to be clear, this is not me defending any terrorism, lets be clear.
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Really interesting thoughts, many of which I ponder too.
There are differences between terrorist groups obviously.
The IRA had a very specific goal in mind; it did not involve erasing a nation.
I think it is worth taking pause and giving more agency to exactly what Hamas (and Hezbollah) want. Nobody actually listens to them and their message. They become a projection screen for many very legitimate anguishes, strifes and horrors in the region. But their stated missions/charters do not (to my interpretation) involve peaceful resolve or care for all the people they represent.

As for governments behaving like terrorists under the guise of 'war', absolutely, both the US and UK have done so on many occasions. For me, what happened post-9/11 and the 'invasion' of Iraq was such an enormous brick stain it is hard to quantify the damage and horror it reigned on multi-millions of innocent lives throughout the Middle East, and disgusting how many fundamentalist terrorist groups got 'power' and 'life' from the subsequent occupation. It appalled me then and appalls me now, just like Afghanistan before it (and more recently).
I always hope I (personally) am not judged by the actions of people like Tony Bliar in the past and (more recently due to where I live) the Trumps of this world.
 
thfcsteff said:
Really interesting thoughts, many of which I ponder too.
There are differences between terrorist groups obviously.
The IRA had a very specific goal in mind; it did not involve erasing a nation.
I think it is worth taking pause and giving more agency to exactly what Hamas (and Hezbollah) want. Nobody actually listens to them and their message. They become a projection screen for many very legitimate anguishes, strifes and horrors in the region. But their stated missions/charters do not (to my interpretation) involve peaceful resolve or care for all the people they represent.

As for governments behaving like terrorists under the guise of 'war', absolutely, both the US and UK have done so on many occasions. For me, what happened post-9/11 and the 'invasion' of Iraq was such an enormous brick stain it is hard to quantify the damage and horror it reigned on multi-millions of innocent lives throughout the Middle East, and disgusting how many fundamentalist terrorist groups got 'power' and 'life' from the subsequent occupation. It appalled me then and appalls me now, just like Afghanistan before it (and more recently).
I always hope I (personally) am not judged by the actions of people like Tony Bliar in the past and (more recently due to where I live) the Trumps of this world.
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Thanks mate and likewise, appreciate that its a tough time to discuss these subjects as alot of emotion about so I am glad my post was taken as intended.

You are absolutely right, there are most definitely different groups within the classification of terrorist organisation. Your second paragraph is so key in that unlawful actions from governments are often the birth place of many of these organisations so there is also danger of things going in circles, there is certainly a feeling of history repeating itself.

We are not on this planet for anyone to care enough on either side for there ever to be peaceful resolution. The political landscape feels abit like society these days, almost a smash and grab mentality with people more interested in securing their own legacy than wanting to actually make a firm difference.
 
I see Ham Salad has taken to social media and asked for all the killing of innocents to stop.

You know what I found really refreshing? When he tweeted in the midst of all those innocent Israelis getting slaughtered by the terrorists who have the same imaginary friend as him........
 
Perhaps I am being naive but the ex policeman in me is bugged by a question. Hamas committed a horrific, barbaric act. Why isn't the answer to that to use the rule of law to hunt these people individually? There is CCTV footage, witnesses and the Israeli secret service is world renowned for finding fleeing Nazis and terrorists and either liquidating them or bringing them to trial. Why are they not targeting the perpetrators of the crime (as they would if this attack or similar happened elsewhere)? Yes it's the long game but it will at least not entirely end any hope of a lasting peace.

Yes there are hostages but sadly once your security is breached it is highly unlikely you will get them back alive. If Hamas are barbaric enough to have taken the actions they did last Saturday, what chance is there that they will release hostages alive?

Yes Israel needs to protect it's borders, so do that. Reinforce your borders.

Why do the Israeli's believe the answer is to engage in collective punishment of women and children? I can't help thinking this is just perpetuating a cycle of retribution between the them and Palestinians. When I think of the conflict I am reminded that Gandhi once said "if every one takes an eye for an eye then the whole world will go blind"

I can't see the Israeli's achieving their stated aim which is to destroy Hamas. Hamas are a movement. The leaders are likely to be living in Jordan, in Lebanon or Qatar.

It is also important to emphasise, this is a conflict primarily based around territory. It is not Jews vs Muslims in a religious ideological war, although some on both sides might manipulate it to look like it is. So to criticise the position of one side or the other does not make one antisemitic or anti Muslim IMHO.
 
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Is that video above really true i.e. it was just some cars near a hospital? Or is that video from some other incident? It is so hard to know nowadays. I've seen tweets stating that Hamas rockets wouldn't have the firepower to flatten a hospital, so it must have been Israel, all very convincing except maybe there was no hospital flattened?



A separate topic; a day or 2 ago someone (dawaxman I think) was posting videos, so I just caught up with some of them.

I found this guy interesting; he talks through the history of the region in an engaging way, and encourages viewers to challenge him if he is wrong.

Some of you may also learn some interesting tidbits about the history of the area from the 7th century up to the 20th century i.e. before Britain got involved etc.

 
Bullet said:
Is that video above really true i.e. it was just some cars near a hospital? Or is that video from some other incident? It is so hard to know nowadays. I've seen tweets stating that Hamas rockets wouldn't have the firepower to flatten a hospital, so it must have been Israel, all very convincing except maybe there was no hospital
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Seems to be the case, yes. Now Hamas are claiming that it wasn't people in the hospital that were killed, it was 500 people standing in the car park at the time.

Looking at the video, they've done an incredible job of cleaning up all the people bits/juice that surely would have plastered the entire car park.
 
Robspur12 said:
Perhaps I am being naive but the ex policeman in me is bugged by a question. Hamas committed a horrific, barbaric act. Why isn't the answer to that to use the rule of law to hunt these people individually? There is CCTV footage, witnesses and the Israeli secret service is world renowned for finding fleeing Nazis and terrorists and either liquidating them or bringing them to trial. Why are they not targeting the perpetrators of the crime (as they would if this attack or similar happened elsewhere)? Yes it's the long game but it will at least not entirely end any hope of a lasting peace.

Yes there are hostages but sadly once your security is breached it is highly unlikely you will get them back alive. If Hamas are barbaric enough to have taken the actions they did last Saturday, what chance is there that they will release hostages alive?

Yes Israel needs to protect it's borders, so do that. Reinforce your borders.

Why do the Israeli's believe the answer is to engage in collective punishment of women and children? I can't help thinking this is just perpetuating a cycle of retribution between the them and Palestinians. When I think of the conflict I am reminded that Gandhi once said "if every one takes an eye for an eye then the whole world will go blind"

I can't see the Israeli's achieving their stated aim which is to destroy Hamas. Hamas are a movement. The leaders are likely to be living in Jordan, in Lebanon or Qatar.

It is also important to emphasise, this is a conflict primarily based around territory. It is not Jews vs Muslims in a religious ideological war, although some on both sides might manipulate it to look like it is. So to criticise the position of one side or the other does not make one antisemitic or anti Muslim IMHO.
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I have two points, one which is to challenge something you've said and one about a new theory which your post helped me realise

1. This very much IS a religious ideological war in the eyes of hamas. This is not about getting more land in/around gaza or the west bank. Hamas want the end of the Jewish people starting with the 'zionists' in Israel and then they'll move on to the Jews in the diaspora before moving on to Christians, Hindus and the non-religious Muslims. They are radical extremists

2. I'm not sure exactly what your post said that gave me this thought, but it's been bugging me that there is a narrative that Israel is indiscriminately shelling gaza with rockets, with no care for civilian life. BUT, by doing this, they're risking killing the Israeli hostages, something the Israeli government/IDF would never sanction. So I theorise that the level of random bombs going into densely populated areas is being massively exaggerated both in terms of the volume, the magnitude of the bombs and the randomness of them

Food for thought
 
Bullet said:
Is that video above really true i.e. it was just some cars near a hospital? Or is that video from some other incident? It is so hard to know nowadays. I've seen tweets stating that Hamas rockets wouldn't have the firepower to flatten a hospital, so it must have been Israel, all very convincing except maybe there was no hospital flattened?



A separate topic; a day or 2 ago someone (dawaxman I think) was posting videos, so I just caught up with some of them.

I found this guy interesting; he talks through the history of the region in an engaging way, and encourages viewers to challenge him if he is wrong.

Some of you may also learn some interesting tidbits about the history of the area from the 7th century up to the 20th century i.e. before Britain got involved etc.

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Thank you @Bullet

I know I'm biased, but I couldn't help but feel that this was a dispassionate assessment of what has happened and what is happening

A lot of Israelis, this guy included, are way too direct to be liars... from my long experience of being there and working with them
 
Rorschach said:
A win, if you can call it that, for the Hamas propaganda team then it would seem. The fallout from this has been immense, so hopefully those in both the political and media arenas will learn a lesson here about jumping the gun on rampant misinformation.
(Narrator: They won't).
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Unfortunately, the ratchet has been turned that little bit further. No matter how much proof is published over the nex[ few days, we can never roll back to where we were before the propaganda.
 
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