Putin & Russia

[Trixster]

I can indeed deduce what I wish. Now that is exactly what Ukraine are fighting for and why I and most people in the West support them.

It is really not hard to understand is it. The Russian Federation are hell bent on reimposing an Empire. An Empire of lies and intimidation, of mass poverty and of a super rich oligarchy - a soul less culture poor innovation vacuum where nobodies lives mean anything.

So yes sorry about your bills. But it is a price that has to be paid.

I hope you were holding on tight to your desk when you typed that, quite a sharp turn of topic direction away from just why it was utterly obvious Russia was behind the pipe attacks/sabotage/unfortunate leaking/underwater pushed off a balcony.

I'd replace Russian Federation with Putin tbh, despite what you may think his support isn't as whole as you would believe. You only have to look at the protests that have taken place since this all started to understand the people are not 100% behind the man, ergo by design the people are not at fault for what is happening. You can't blame the people for the government's decisions, if you do then I hope you hold all such folk in the same light - Israelis', Nth Korean's, Chinese, Americans, not to mention British - everyone's government has been a taco at some point.

Oh, and though it is a totally separate conversation, one could say that just by replacing ""Empire"'" with "country" you would be able to lump in 80% of the world into that quote - a sad state of affairs tbh, but most countries have their intrinsic sub-culture of lies and intimidation along with abject poverty and a super-rich elite.

Anyhoo, I digress, I've been thinking about the pipeline and maybe it was done by Russia as a "look what we can do" threat - we're capable of doing this so watch out for your pipelines sort of thing. But that is the only one I can surmise.

And even in that instance, if they can do this then why haven't they done the same to the undersea internet cables etc that run into Ukraine, I'm sure there must be some. I mean if I'd started this whole brickshow, in this day and age one of the first things I would do is tamper with the undersea cables for comms etc - hell Russia has even started, and I believe quite a way fwd with, their splinternet to decouple from the rest of the delightful interweb so they won't affect themselves so much.

Aah, bills are bills - besides, I can't take the money with me when I pop my clogs.

 

[Gutter Boy]

There is no way back for Russia for generations. They are finished as a major power.

Was always going to happen. The oil countries - Saudi, UAE, Russia - are all heading to the backwaters by the 2030s. I think Putin knew this was Russia's death throws as a world power, so wanted to go out with a swansong.

 

[johnola]

I hope you were holding on tight to your desk when you typed that, quite a sharp turn of topic direction away from just why it was utterly obvious Russia was behind the pipe attacks/sabotage/unfortunate leaking/underwater pushed off a balcony.

I'd replace Russian Federation with Putin tbh, despite what you may think his support isn't as whole as you would believe. You only have to look at the protests that have taken place since this all started to understand the people are not 100% behind the man, ergo by design the people are not at fault for what is happening. You can't blame the people for the government's decisions, if you do then I hope you hold all such folk in the same light - Israelis', Nth Korean's, Chinese, Americans, not to mention British - everyone's government has been a taco at some point.

Oh, and though it is a totally separate conversation, one could say that just by replacing ""Empire"'" with "country" you would be able to lump in 80% of the world into that quote - a sad state of affairs tbh, but most countries have their intrinsic sub-culture of lies and intimidation along with abject poverty and a super-rich elite.

Anyhoo, I digress, I've been thinking about the pipeline and maybe it was done by Russia as a "look what we can do" threat - we're capable of doing this so watch out for your pipelines sort of thing. But that is the only one I can surmise.

And even in that instance, if they can do this then why haven't they done the same to the undersea internet cables etc that run into Ukraine, I'm sure there must be some. I mean if I'd started this whole brickshow, in this day and age one of the first things I would do is tamper with the undersea cables for comms etc - hell Russia has even started, and I believe quite a way fwd with, their splinternet to decouple from the rest of the delightful interweb so they won't affect themselves so much.

Aah, bills are bills - besides, I can't take the money with me when I pop my clogs.

You don’t think that the first thing Russia should have done is leave Ukraine the fudge alone. Observe their international treaties?

No, your thoughts are about further disconnecting Ukrainians from their Utilities and setting up a perfect Russian intranet for Russian people.

 

[johnola]

Let's hope this is a genuine catalyst for change.

Much like COVID-19 was a huge catalyst for working from home. For years I bemoaned the fact I had to drive 90 minutes into a crappy office to sit in silence with headphones in and try to ignore the inane banter around the kitchenette.

Right let’s start an energy saving thread as a positive spin off to this exposition of misery.

 

[Trixster]

You don’t think that the first thing Russia should have done is leave Ukraine the fudge alone. Observe their international treaties?

No, your thoughts are about further disconnecting Ukrainians from their Utilities and setting up a perfect Russian intranet for Russian people.

There's no saving some people.. You see what you want to see in text despite it not being there.
You choose to pick on a hypothetical action from everything that was written.
(I do have a military viewpoint of things all-round the theatre, I can't help that as I served.)

I've already given my stance, if you choose to ignore it then I'm sorry for you.
I don't support Russia or Ukraine, this was meant to be a discussion around the logical reasons why the pipelines were "disturbed" - there's a neutral word for ya.

War isn't nice, but this is the brick world we live in where they happen. I doubt very much you will denounce Ukraine for blowing up their own civilians from 2014-2021 in the Donbass region, will you? Because no-one gave a single fudge, eight years and not one single fudge, about Donbass and what happened there.
(The population in those areas are Ukrainian as the land is Ukraine's.)

If you want to talk logically about the pipeline attack (which is what this convo was about), then feel free to jot down your thoughts for prosperity. Otherwise, let's just leave it as it is rather than you select random paragraphs and twist to your own designs.

 

[johnola]

There's no saving some people.. You see what you want to see in text despite it not being there.
You choose to pick on a hypothetical action from everything that was written.
(I do have a military viewpoint of things all-round the theatre, I can't help that as I served.)

I've already given my stance, if you choose to ignore it then I'm sorry for you.
I don't support Russia or Ukraine, this was meant to be a discussion around the logical reasons why the pipelines were "disturbed" - there's a neutral word for ya.

War isn't nice, but this is the brick world we live in where they happen. I doubt very much you will denounce Ukraine for blowing up their own civilians from 2014-2021 in the Donbass region, will you? Because no-one gave a single fudge, eight years and not one single fudge, about Donbass and what happened there.
(The population in those areas are Ukrainian as the land is Ukraine's.)

If you want to talk logically about the pipeline attack (which is what this convo was about), then feel free to jot down your thoughts for prosperity. Otherwise, let's just leave it as it is rather than you select random paragraphs and twist to your own designs.

Bless you. The convo is about Putin and Russia.

The Russian Federation blew up the pipelines.

There is no need for logic, there is no doubt, other than that you want to introduce, with which I have no truck.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Russian TV anti-war protester Marina Ovsyannikova has taken her daughter - and that cracking set of snorgs - and done a runner from house arrest in Moscow.

Find it hard to believe she won't find shelter.

 

[Jordinho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576977000178208768

 

[metalgear]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576976409485901827

 

[metalgear]

Vladimir Putin consulted with a fortune teller. He asked:

"How long will I live?"

The psychic replied:
"I cannot tell that but I do know you will die on a Ukrainian holiday."

"Which holiday?" Putin asked.

"Whichever day you die will be a Ukrainian holiday."

Sent from my SM-T865 using Fapatalk

 

[DTA]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576976409485901827

he is not going to be falling out of windows though is he?

 

[johnola]

It looks bleaker than ever - perhaps moving to another higher level of bleakness.

What will happen in Kherson over winter? It all seems so pointless there- and so many civilians will die and suffer in and around Kherson City when the denouement inevitably comes.

 

[Rorschach]

It looks bleaker than ever - perhaps moving to another higher level of bleakness.

What will happen in Kherson over winter? It all seems so pointless there- and so many civilians will die and suffer in and around Kherson City when the denouement inevitably comes.

I think Kherson will be liberated in the next month or so. The Russian lines are collapsing there. The predictions I have seen are guessing Ukraine will strike for Melitopol and cut off Kherson from communications running east. The Russians west of that line will have to exit towards Crimea or surrender (or worse).

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I think Kherson will be liberated in the next month or so. The Russian lines are collapsing there. The predictions I have seen are guessing Ukraine will strike for Melitopol and cut off Kherson from communications running east. The Russians west of that line will have to exit towards Crimea or surrender (or worse).

I guess it would then be subject to increased bombing though?

hopefully the humiliations continue and Putin gets overthrown?! Surely “the next man” will be well aware then of the Russian military’s demise and be less bullish?

 

[Rorschach]

I guess it would then be subject to increased bombing though?

hopefully the humiliations continue and Putin gets overthrown?! Surely “the next man” will be well aware then of the Russian military’s demise and be less bullish?

Well, I see the Kadyrov and Lapin bickering publically, which is not a good look. US intelligence is picking up on trouble in Putin's inner circle. The game of thrones has already begun I guess. Alternatively, I could see Chechnya and other regions breaking away from Russian influence altogether while they are weak. Who knows how it will shake down but there is a lot going on.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I guess it would then be subject to increased bombing though?

hopefully the humiliations continue and Putin gets overthrown?! Surely “the next man” will be well aware then of the Russian military’s demise and be less bullish?

That is unlikely. Showing strength is part of leadership, especially in mother Russia. Could go the other way too.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

That is unlikely. Showing strength is part of leadership, especially in mother Russia. Could go the other way too.

Not sure the public would stomach another war if this one keeps going in the same direction. The Russian generals maybe psychotic, but doubt they are complete idiots, they’ll know what a military defeat looks like (if it does end up that way and there’s a hell of a long way to go yet). Doubt a new regime would go boots on the ground in this fashion again for quite some time.

There seems to be a bit of talk that the next guy will be worse so let’s just placate Putin, but who really knows what a new regime could look like? The Russian people would have a certain amount of say in that, there is growing un rest there.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not sure the public would stomach another war if this one keeps going in the same direction. The Russian generals maybe psychotic, but doubt they are complete idiots, they’ll know what a military defeat looks like (if it does end up that way and there’s a hell of a long way to go yet). Doubt a new regime would go boots on the ground in this fashion again for quite some time.

There seems to be a bit of talk that the next guy will be worse so let’s just placate Putin, but who really knows what a new regime could look like? The Russian people would have a certain amount of say in that, there is growing un rest there.

I don't think anyone is saying placate Putin were they? No one knows who the next person in charge of Russia will be. But history tells us that in such circumstances, it is rarely a benign friendly leader than emerges. And if you understand the culture and history of Russia, you appreciate that a strong man is very likely. But I don't think Putin will be going soon, there is no exit strategy. If he leaves office he's surely dead or locked up?

As for the people, only the younger generation are really aware. Many of the older generation - even in Ukraine! - still support old Soviet ideals. Crazy but true. Those that 'get it' and oppose Putin and war are not free to standup against it. Do so and you risk your freedom and livelihood.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I don't think anyone is saying placate Putin were they? No one knows who the next person in charge of Russia will be. But history tells us that in such circumstances, it is rarely a benign friendly leader than emerges. And if you understand the culture and history of Russia, you appreciate that a strong man is very likely. But I don't Putin will be going soon, there is no exit strategy. If he leaves office he's surely dead or locked up?

I’ve heard a few posters and commentators say the world needs to give Putin a way out of this. What does that look like in reality? lifting sanctions, recognize some of his claims to Ukrainian land?

a strong man wouldn’t have to be a war lord.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I’ve heard a few posters and commentators say the world needs to give Putin a way out of this. What does that look like in reality? lifting sanctions, recognize some of his claims to Ukrainian land?

a strong man wouldn’t have to be a war lord.

There is no easy solution. Just an appreciation that a suboptimal solution could be far better than the worst-case scenarios. Most of the time when the West intervenes funding wars, the outcomes for local people (as well as the west) tend not to be good. Syria, Iraq and Islamic State, Afghanistan, Lybia, Yemen. There are exceptions like Yugoslavia, Sierra Leone.