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Politics, politics, politics

Danishfurniturelover said:
So the country vote for something. Then the next general election the leader and the leader of the opposition agree on said thing.

Then a small unelected group of people try and stop it. I went to sleep and woke up in a dictatorship.

Oh GHod, what happened what will they do next


hashtag i miss freedom
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Aka our parliamentary process is making our decisions instead of Brussels.
That's what many leave voters voted for.
 
monkeybarry said:
Aka our parliamentary process is making our decisions instead of Brussels.
That's what many leave voters voted for.
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Nope an unelected elite decided to fudge the country and what the majority voted for at the last general election and at the referendum before that.

People clearly voted to be clear from the EU, but to many people with to many vested interests have gone against the clear wish of the people. A very sad day and like Cameron welshing on a referendum for the lisbon treaty, the Lords going against the people will be the seen as one of the days that the BLA gained more power and traction.
 
StephenH said:
Brexit is stupid
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It is!

Didn't Jacob Greece Smogg resist reform of the House of Lords? Wierdly I actually agree. I don't think its healthy to have a fully democracticaly elected second chamber. The House of Lords are not making a decision on EU memership, they are simply putting the issue back into the elected chamber where a debate and vote can take place.

The only people worried about it are those who want to quickly sqeeze Brexit through before anyone considers the ramifications. That's not democracy. And voting to leave the EU did not outline whether that meant leaving our local trade zones. I am pretty sure that people didn't vote to be poorer or reduce trade signifcantly, so if the Lords flag it up as a vital issue that needs debate by the elected chamber, isn't that our parlimentry democracy working well?
 
SpurMeUp said:
It is!

Didn't Jacob Greece Smogg resist reform of the House of Lords? Wierdly I actually agree. I don't think its healthy to have a fully democracticaly elected second chamber. The House of Lords are not making a decision on EU memership, they are simply putting the issue back into the elected chamber where a debate and vote can take place.

The only people worried about it are those who want to quickly sqeeze Brexit through before anyone considers the ramifications. That's not democracy. And voting to leave the EU did not outline whether that meant leaving our local trade zones. I am pretty sure that people didn't vote to be poorer or reduce trade signifcantly, so if the Lords flag it up as a vital issue that needs debate by the elected chamber, isn't that our parlimentry democracy working well?
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The HoL can't be appointed (cronyism) or directly elected (able to rival the HoC for primacy).

For me the solution is the Irish system of vocational panels for the Seanad Eireann. For 34 seats they have 7 from public administration, 11 from agriculture, 5 from culture and education, 9 from industry and commerce, and 11 from labour. This could just be scaled up and made to represent the different balance of UK occupations. So elected but not directly elected.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The HoL can't be appointed (cronyism) or directly elected (able to rival the HoC for primacy).

For me the solution is the Irish system of vocational panels for the Seanad Eireann. For 34 seats they have 7 from public administration, 11 from agriculture, 5 from culture and education, 9 from industry and commerce, and 11 from labour. This could just be scaled up and made to represent the different balance of UK occupations. So elected but not directly elected.
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Interesting. How are the 7 from public admin etc determined?

There should be more innovation in the structures of government. Especially Ministries, who are the engine rooms of our government, but they are rarely scrutinised and are hugly wasteful.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Nope an unelected elite decided to fudge the country and what the majority voted for at the last general election and at the referendum before that.

People clearly voted to be clear from the EU, but to many people with to many vested interests have gone against the clear wish of the people. A very sad day and like Cameron welshing on a referendum for the lisbon treaty, the Lords going against the people will be the seen as one of the days that the BLA gained more power and traction.
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That may be the case, but that doesn't alter that everything is within the remit of our parliamentary system.
A system that was championed in Brexit so we could make our own decisions instead of Brussels making them.
That is what is happening, we are making our own decisions. That's sovereignty.
That's control taken back. Just because you don't like the outcome it doesn't make it less valid.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Interesting. How are the 7 from public admin etc determined?

There should be more innovation in the structures of government. Especially Ministries, who are the engine rooms of our government, but they are rarely scrutinised and are hugly wasteful.
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I think they can either be voted for internally from within the sector or appointed by the designated professional body. Say PCS would organise the vote or appointment for the public admin one here.
 
monkeybarry said:
That may be the case, but that doesn't alter that everything is within the remit of our parliamentary system.
A system that was championed in Brexit so we could make our own decisions instead of Brussels making them.
That is what is happening, we are making our own decisions. That's sovereignty.
That's control taken back. Just because you don't like the outcome it doesn't make it less valid.
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Nope it is not valid because those peers are not bothered in being a double check for laws, they are just trying to stop something they dont want to happen. If you and they had anything about you, then you would just admit that. You could admit it with a laugh and a smug shrug of the shoulders. I have said on here for a while that Brexit would not happen because of the Lords.

The unelected elite in this country were going to do anything to "kick it into the long grass" and keep the process tied up in courts. We all knew it was going to happen, and when it did I committed myself to help the BLA in any small way I could.

The great thing is by doing this they are storing up so many problems for the future I am more convinced then ever that the way the EU has treated us will show other countries how authoritarian they are. Also we will hopefully in some point in the future get a true democracy which will include and elected second house, not the situation now where whoever gets into power just get rid of Lords that are not of the same political persuasion as them.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The HoL can't be appointed (cronyism) or directly elected (able to rival the HoC for primacy).

For me the solution is the Irish system of vocational panels for the Seanad Eireann. For 34 seats they have 7 from public administration, 11 from agriculture, 5 from culture and education, 9 from industry and commerce, and 11 from labour. This could just be scaled up and made to represent the different balance of UK occupations. So elected but not directly elected.
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As ever you show intelligence and proper alternative thinking and offer solutions to different issues. I love this proactive forward thinking approach to issues.
 
SpurMeUp said:
It is!

Didn't Jacob Greece Smogg resist reform of the House of Lords? Wierdly I actually agree. I don't think its healthy to have a fully democracticaly elected second chamber. The House of Lords are not making a decision on EU memership, they are simply putting the issue back into the elected chamber where a debate and vote can take place.

The only people worried about it are those who want to quickly sqeeze Brexit through before anyone considers the ramifications. That's not democracy. And voting to leave the EU did not outline whether that meant leaving our local trade zones. I am pretty sure that people didn't vote to be poorer or reduce trade signifcantly, so if the Lords flag it up as a vital issue that needs debate by the elected chamber, isn't that our parlimentry democracy working well?
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Brexit should renamed the Eton mess!
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Nope it is not valid because those peers are not bothered in being a double check for laws, they are just trying to stop something they dont want to happen. If you and they had anything about you, then you would just admit that. You could admit it with a laugh and a smug shrug of the shoulders. I have said on here for a while that Brexit would not happen because of the Lords.

The unelected elite in this country were going to do anything to "kick it into the long grass" and keep the process tied up in courts. We all knew it was going to happen, and when it did I committed myself to help the BLA in any small way I could.

The great thing is by doing this they are storing up so many problems for the future I am more convinced then ever that the way the EU has treated us will show other countries how authoritarian they are. Also we will hopefully in some point in the future get a true democracy which will include and elected second house, not the situation now where whoever gets into power just get rid of Lords that are not of the same political persuasion as them.
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I don't disagree with any of the above.
But they doesn't change the fact that it is a mechanism of the political system that was championed by many Brexiters as being preferable to Brussels. Ergo, it's what many voted for.
Internal reform was necessary before Brexit vote, but I don't remember a bit movement for that, only now is disquiet appearing because some people don't like the parliamentary process - sounds a bit undemocratic and anti British to me.
Surely we should be getting behind our superior political system for the sake of sovereignty.
 
monkeybarry said:
I don't disagree with any of the above.
But they doesn't change the fact that it is a mechanism of the political system that was championed by many Brexiters as being preferable to Brussels. Ergo, it's what many voted for.
Internal reform was necessary before Brexit vote, but I don't remember a bit movement for that, only now is disquiet appearing because some people don't like the parliamentary process - sounds a bit undemocratic and anti British to me.
Surely we should be getting behind our superior political system for the sake of sovereignty.
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I agree. Sort Brexit, then worry about HoL reform later.

Under the Salisbury Convention they can't oppose stuff at 2nd and 3rd readings that was in manifestos (and delivering Brexit was in both Tory and Labour manifestos, which 85% voted for). At the moment it is just saber rattling. The constitution crisis only comes if they starting messing around at the business end of the legislation
 
Gutter Boy said:
I agree. Sort Brexit, then worry about HoL reform later.

Under the Salisbury Convention they can't oppose stuff at 2nd and 3rd readings that was in manifestos (and delivering Brexit was in both Tory and Labour manifestos, which 85% voted for). At the moment it is just saber rattling. The constitution crisis only comes if they starting messing around at the business end of the legislation
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Or just sort the UK. Most of the beef is with the UK mechanisms, not the EU. Sort out our home structures first and foremost.
 
How can any meritocracy that takes itself seriously have an un democratic upper house? Seriously, almost as embarrassing as having a ninety year old German as head of state.
 
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