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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

SpurMeUp said:
G7 GDP per capita growth 2016-2023:

US: 10.77%
Italy: 6.94%
France: 5.74%
Japan: 3.95%
Germany: 3.40%
Canada: 2.63%
UK: 0.46%

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1370625/g7-country-gdp-levels-per-capita/

The nation is potentially hamstrung with low growth and high inflation. Is that called stagflation? The Bank of England can’t put up rates any more because it stops growth. But because of war, energy price increases, as well as wage inflation probably due to brexit/covid, we desperately need to slow inflation. Other nations aren’t seeing the same extreme wage inflation or low growth.

The figures above are shocking and are possibly the greatest argument for re-joining the EU. There is no doubt in my mind Brexit has damaged our economy.
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Published April 2023 is your main issue - https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-economy-grows-02-q2-2023-2023-09-29/
 
monkeybarry said:
Erm, the data goes up to the end of Q1 2023. And the update was published before the end of Q2.
Doesn't get much more recent than that.
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The data was published in April 2023 on the site quoted, the ONS revised GDP up in September 2023 (for the periods on the site quoted) so the site isn't showing accurate figures.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Interesting. There are no issues for you then? Happy with the outcomes? :D
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My life isn't ruled by the economy and money (as much as I like it) and GDP is a poor measure to rank anything by. Far better to look at other measures such as life expectancy, debt level/interest spent on debt, income per capita, education, unemployment including youth unemployment, house prices, social mobility, inequality, pollution standards, infrastructure, access to broadband, healthcare, public transport etc. The UK is probably doing very badly on some of those things but it would give a much better comparison.

The US might top the table you posted but they have an insane amount of debt, crazy MAGA types, poor public transport, big political deadlock over some issues like abortion etc. Despite the high growth is it really a better place to live?
 
P.D. said:
My life isn't ruled by the economy and money (as much as I like it) and GDP is a poor measure to rank anything by. Far better to look at other measures such as life expectancy, debt level/interest spent on debt, income per capita, education, unemployment including youth unemployment, house prices, social mobility, inequality, pollution standards, infrastructure, access to broadband, healthcare, public transport etc. The UK is probably doing very badly on some of those things but it would give a much better comparison.

The US might top the table you posted but they have an insane amount of debt, crazy MAGA types, poor public transport, big political deadlock over some issues like abortion etc. Despite the high growth is it really a better place to live?
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Definitely. GDP is simply a measure of population growth and the speed you burn dinosaurs. Nothing useful like quality of life.
 
P.D. said:
My life isn't ruled by the economy and money (as much as I like it) and GDP is a poor measure to rank anything by. Far better to look at other measures such as life expectancy, debt level/interest spent on debt, income per capita, education, unemployment including youth unemployment, house prices, social mobility, inequality, pollution standards, infrastructure, access to broadband, healthcare, public transport etc. The UK is probably doing very badly on some of those things but it would give a much better comparison.

The US might top the table you posted but they have an insane amount of debt, crazy MAGA types, poor public transport, big political deadlock over some issues like abortion etc. Despite the high growth is it really a better place to live?
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Heheh. Isn't it easier just to say, yeah it didn't work out as I expected?

GDP is what it is. It is just a basic measure of economic activity. Complaining about it is like complaining that degrees celsius doesn't really give you a whole picture about a weather system. Of course it doesn't. You can drill into the detail, and spend pages analysing how much more tax we pay, the underfundiung and state of the NHS etc etc ad infinitim. But here is a simple 'temperature check' which indicates the UK stopped still post-Brexit. Yes there are other variables too, but to discount this reality because you backed Brexit is akin to putting your fingers in your ears.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Heheh. Isn't it easier just to say, yeah it didn't work out as I expected?

GDP is what it is. It is just a basic measure of economic activity. Complaining about it is like complaining that degrees celsius doesn't really give you a whole picture about a weather system. Of course it doesn't. You can drill into the detail, and spend pages analysing how much more tax we pay, the underfundiung and state of the NHS etc etc ad infinitim. But here is a simple 'temperature' check which indicates the UK stopped still post-Brexit. Yes there are other variables too, but to discount this reality because you backed Brexit is just putting your fingers in your ears.
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But GDP is an absolute measure, not a per capita one. It's about how rapidly you can expand your population. A kind of ponzi scheme.
 
Think we are over thinking this. It is a measure of goods and services produced in a nation, nothing more. @Gutter Boy is correct in that immigration is pushing up our growth. The bigget Tory/Brexit lie was all around immigration. It sold Brexit, without the immigration lever we wouldn't have had Brexit, and here are the Conservatives relying on huge immigration to maintain some economic growth, stop recession, and service the demand from the labour market.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Heheh. Isn't it easier just to say, yeah it didn't work out as I expected?

GDP is what it is. It is just a basic measure of economic activity. Complaining about it is like complaining that degrees celsius doesn't really give you a whole picture about a weather system. Of course it doesn't. You can drill into the detail, and spend pages analysing how much more tax we pay, the underfundiung and state of the NHS etc etc ad infinitim. But here is a simple 'temperature check' which indicates the UK stopped still post-Brexit. Yes there are other variables too, but to discount this reality because you backed Brexit is akin to putting your fingers in your ears.
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What's expected though? You yourself say there's many different versions of Brexit. Isn't it a little naive to assume that everyone that voted for Brexit support the Tory deal in it's entirety.

You posted stats to highlight how Brexit had put the UK bottom of the growth table but in actual fact the UK is likely mid table, not great but not bad either. And again you haven't answered why growth is so good, is the US a better place to live for instance? Would you rather live somewhere with high growth or somewhere that features higher in the list of items in my previous post.
 
P.D. said:
What's expected though? You yourself say there's many different versions of Brexit. Isn't it a little naive to assume that everyone that voted for Brexit support the Tory deal in it's entirety.

You posted stats to highlight how Brexit had put the UK bottom of the growth table but in actual fact the UK is likely mid table, not great but not bad either. And again you haven't answered why growth is so good, is the US a better place to live for instance? Would you rather live somewhere with high growth or somewhere that features higher in the list of items in my previous post.
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You don’t like the measure of GDP, ok fine by what metric has the uk improved because of Brexit?
 
P.D. said:
I prefer electing a government that more or less have full autonomy over decision making, that's a big plus for me.
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I mean.. that actually hasn’t happened. In many ways we have actually given up some more autonomy because we have left the EU as contradictory as that sounds.

but even if you were correct, the government that “you” elected… was that of Boris Johnson, which led to Liz destroyer of economies Trust… so that’s not going too well is it?

so anything that’s improved because of Brexit? Something tangible and measurable would be great.
 
DTA said:
I mean.. that actually hasn’t happened. In many ways we have actually given up some more autonomy because we have left the EU as contradictory as that sounds.

but even if you were correct, the government that “you” elected… was that of Boris Johnson, which led to Liz destroyer of economies Trust… so that’s not going too well is it?

so anything that’s improved because of Brexit? Something tangible and measurable would be great.
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There hasn't been an election since Brexit came into effect.

At the next one though I can vote for a party that pledges nationalisation of energy and transport. That couldn't have happened before 2020, when all parties were bound by EU state aid and competition laws.
 
Gutter Boy said:
There hasn't been an election since Brexit came into effect.

At the next one though I can vote for a party that pledges nationalisation of energy and transport. That couldn't have happened before 2020, when all parties were bound by EU state aid and competition laws.
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Yet many EU nations have state owned and run transportation and energy systems :D you are a gas.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yet many EU nations have state owned and run transportation and energy systems :D you are a gas.
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State owned companies can compete in a marketplace - yes. But nationalisation is forbidden by the EU. So the people never get to own their own infrastructure. Nor can long term investments be made
 
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